Can a car with a auto gearbox ever really be a driver car?
Discussion
I know there is a lot of talk about how DSG style gearboxes take away a level of interaction, but as long as the shifts are instant, I kind of like the idea! But can a car with a proper slushy gearbox, where the shifts aren't really as fast as you'd want, ever be considered a real drivers car?
The reason is ask is because I'd love an E46 330 cab [I know a cab isn't a driver choice but that's a different subject], but with 230hp I just don't think it's got enough performance and wouldn't be any faster than my current E36 328 or my old Integra. To solve this issue, the obvious choice is an E46 M3 cab but then you're talking a bunch more cash to run the thing [I know, my mates got a coupe]. Then, I came across a left-field option, an Alpina B3 [3.3 or later 3.4] - I'm not 100% if you could spec these with a manual but I'm guessing the majority of them are autos? The autos on these cars have a manual over-ride [buttons on the wheel?], and with 300hp and running costs closer to a 330 than an M3 [so I'm told], maybe this is the answer?
But, will the box frustrate me, will it change gear via the buttons when I say so or is a Alpina just a car for cruising not a Sunday morning blast? I must say, I do like the idea of an a DSG style auto, so I can be lazy when I want to be but play race driver when the roads are good but the B3 has a regular shush box...any experiences guys?
The reason is ask is because I'd love an E46 330 cab [I know a cab isn't a driver choice but that's a different subject], but with 230hp I just don't think it's got enough performance and wouldn't be any faster than my current E36 328 or my old Integra. To solve this issue, the obvious choice is an E46 M3 cab but then you're talking a bunch more cash to run the thing [I know, my mates got a coupe]. Then, I came across a left-field option, an Alpina B3 [3.3 or later 3.4] - I'm not 100% if you could spec these with a manual but I'm guessing the majority of them are autos? The autos on these cars have a manual over-ride [buttons on the wheel?], and with 300hp and running costs closer to a 330 than an M3 [so I'm told], maybe this is the answer?
But, will the box frustrate me, will it change gear via the buttons when I say so or is a Alpina just a car for cruising not a Sunday morning blast? I must say, I do like the idea of an a DSG style auto, so I can be lazy when I want to be but play race driver when the roads are good but the B3 has a regular shush box...any experiences guys?
Slushy when it feels like it auto box, not really no, as its not likley to put you in the gear you want/need when you want it, or will change gear when you dont, ie mid corner.
However flappy paddle/dsg style boxes that actually let you choose the when and what gear to be in are pretty good.
However flappy paddle/dsg style boxes that actually let you choose the when and what gear to be in are pretty good.
Depends on preference.
IIRC Gordon Murray decided against a flappy paddle box on the F1 because he wanted to be able to change from 2-4 or 3-5 etc without going through the gears.
Again a review of the Viper noted that put it in 3rd, and it was the best auto in the world since it could pull from 0-120 IIRC
Equally a GT car with a big torque engine, does not need to change in normal driving, and kick down is there for a push.
Horses for courses, if I was doing A-roads/motorway distance driving, big GT auto is great.
B roading and twisties light car with a slick manual box.
IIRC Gordon Murray decided against a flappy paddle box on the F1 because he wanted to be able to change from 2-4 or 3-5 etc without going through the gears.
Again a review of the Viper noted that put it in 3rd, and it was the best auto in the world since it could pull from 0-120 IIRC
Equally a GT car with a big torque engine, does not need to change in normal driving, and kick down is there for a push.
Horses for courses, if I was doing A-roads/motorway distance driving, big GT auto is great.
B roading and twisties light car with a slick manual box.
There is an arguement for but is anyone going to say that the M3 CSL is a better car for DSG or that the 355 with paddles would be the one to go for?
Technology is moving at a tremendous rate and the next generation of slushboxes will no doubt allow you to just 'think' of another gear then fire the hydraulics to take care of it. Better still the DBW will be able to decide just how much torque it is going to allow and the active dampers the attitude of the vehicle. Then we can all sit back and just bury the throttle and not worry about any of the things which actually make driving enjoyable. The by-product of this is that the older technology is redundant, slow and unloved not to mention expensive if/when it fails. Same goes for DMF, the manufacturers just cant stop messing with things that have been fundamentally right since the 50's.
Just look at the reaction from drivers when they jump into a Mk2 Escort or a 60's F1 car. Sequential I will agree are a thing of joy but not this automatic nonsense...
It'll never catch on
Technology is moving at a tremendous rate and the next generation of slushboxes will no doubt allow you to just 'think' of another gear then fire the hydraulics to take care of it. Better still the DBW will be able to decide just how much torque it is going to allow and the active dampers the attitude of the vehicle. Then we can all sit back and just bury the throttle and not worry about any of the things which actually make driving enjoyable. The by-product of this is that the older technology is redundant, slow and unloved not to mention expensive if/when it fails. Same goes for DMF, the manufacturers just cant stop messing with things that have been fundamentally right since the 50's.
Just look at the reaction from drivers when they jump into a Mk2 Escort or a 60's F1 car. Sequential I will agree are a thing of joy but not this automatic nonsense...
It'll never catch on
I did used to have an E30 cab with an auto box [it had a sports setting too, which only used the first 3 gears, how funny is that compared to today 8-speed boxes] so I do have some experience - and to tell the truth I didn't like it! That was a car from 1989 though so I guess technology has moved on a bunch now, but I guess the feeling of being in the wrong gear a lot of the time remains, even with the most modern auto boxes?
The proof would be in the pudding though [that the right phrase?], so I'd need to drive an B3 myself. Just wondering the level of manual control the switch-tronic box would give you, compare to a DSG?
The proof would be in the pudding though [that the right phrase?], so I'd need to drive an B3 myself. Just wondering the level of manual control the switch-tronic box would give you, compare to a DSG?
Porkie said:
yonex said:
There is an arguement for but is anyone going to say that the M3 CSL is a better car for DSG
M3 CSL doesn't have a DSG box...or am I missing your point completely?
BUG4LIFE said:
But can a car with a proper slushy gearbox, where the shifts aren't really as fast as you'd want, ever be considered a real drivers car?
I think you're looking for a distinction which doesn't really exist. The builders of conventional torque-converter autos have been fighting back against the DSG mob. With full electronic control of the transmission shift speeds can be made very much quicker and 6-speed boxes are now common place with 8-speeders available too. The torque converter also spends more of its time in lock-up mode.By way of a for-instance the Corvette's 6-speed paddle-shift auto is very fine indeed.
See this link for details of ZFs latest 8-speeder, http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/products/innovation...
5 USA said:
BUG4LIFE said:
But can a car with a proper slushy gearbox, where the shifts aren't really as fast as you'd want, ever be considered a real drivers car?
I think you're looking for a distinction which doesn't really exist. The builders of conventional torque-converter autos have been fighting back against the DSG mob. With full electronic control of the transmission shift speeds can be made very much quicker and 6-speed boxes are now common place with 8-speeders available too. The torque converter also spends more of its time in lock-up mode.By way of a for-instance the Corvette's 6-speed paddle-shift auto is very fine indeed.
See this link for details of ZFs latest 8-speeder, http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/products/innovation...
BUG4LIFE said:
I know there is a lot of talk about how DSG style gearboxes take away a level of interaction, but as long as the shifts are instant, I kind of like the idea! But can a car with a proper slushy gearbox, where the shifts aren't really as fast as you'd want, ever be considered a real drivers car?
The reason is ask is because I'd love an E46 330 cab [I know a cab isn't a driver choice but that's a different subject], but with 230hp I just don't think it's got enough performance and wouldn't be any faster than my current E36 328 or my old Integra. To solve this issue, the obvious choice is an E46 M3 cab but then you're talking a bunch more cash to run the thing [I know, my mates got a coupe]. Then, I came across a left-field option, an Alpina B3 [3.3 or later 3.4] - I'm not 100% if you could spec these with a manual but I'm guessing the majority of them are autos? The autos on these cars have a manual over-ride [buttons on the wheel?], and with 300hp and running costs closer to a 330 than an M3 [so I'm told], maybe this is the answer?
But, will the box frustrate me, will it change gear via the buttons when I say so or is a Alpina just a car for cruising not a Sunday morning blast? I must say, I do like the idea of an a DSG style auto, so I can be lazy when I want to be but play race driver when the roads are good but the B3 has a regular shush box...any experiences guys?
There's more to a drivers car than the gearbox. So yes I think an auto can be a drivers car.The reason is ask is because I'd love an E46 330 cab [I know a cab isn't a driver choice but that's a different subject], but with 230hp I just don't think it's got enough performance and wouldn't be any faster than my current E36 328 or my old Integra. To solve this issue, the obvious choice is an E46 M3 cab but then you're talking a bunch more cash to run the thing [I know, my mates got a coupe]. Then, I came across a left-field option, an Alpina B3 [3.3 or later 3.4] - I'm not 100% if you could spec these with a manual but I'm guessing the majority of them are autos? The autos on these cars have a manual over-ride [buttons on the wheel?], and with 300hp and running costs closer to a 330 than an M3 [so I'm told], maybe this is the answer?
But, will the box frustrate me, will it change gear via the buttons when I say so or is a Alpina just a car for cruising not a Sunday morning blast? I must say, I do like the idea of an a DSG style auto, so I can be lazy when I want to be but play race driver when the roads are good but the B3 has a regular shush box...any experiences guys?
Also remember any auto box can, will and does change gear quicker than a human. But I do agree it's the tactile experience that is different, probably more so than any other fact.
Potentially an auto might "seek" and always be pissing about a bit more, or change up or down when you don't really want it too. But you can get used to it.
As for instant changes, seriously if even half the people who claim things like this could shift manually quickly, then they'd all be F1 drivers.
Most people are now where near as quick or precise as they believe. And many a manual box can't be rushed either.
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff