there is no god

[tonym911]

So says Prof Hawking anyway:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

What nobody can ever explain is true nothingness, ie what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous). I know this is an old chestnut, and that the human race will never stop trying to apply theories to things they don't understand, but maybe we should just let this one be for now.

[Eric Mc]

Hmm - new book to sell, needs to create a "newsworthy" item so that he gets some unpaid for air time.

Methinks the Prof is up to a little of his media manipulation trickery.

[Alex]

tonym911 said:

what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous).

Time itself began with the creation of the universe, so there is no concept of "something previous".

[tonym911]

Alex said:

tonym911 said:

what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous).

Time itself began with the creation of the universe, so there is no concept of "something previous".

See, that's what I mean, such huge assumptions are required to make this theory stick.

[bga]

Alex said:

tonym911 said:

what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous).

Time itself began with the creation of the universe, so there is no concept of "something previous".

This is where I struggle with the arguments for "big bang" and organised religion.
What was there before the universe was created? or what was there before <your favourite deity> came to be?

Both require belief or faith to conceptualise.

[tonym911]

+1 on that bga

[Busa_Rush]

Alex said:

tonym911 said:

what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous).

Time itself began with the creation of the universe, so there is no concept of "something previous".

"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something," he concluded.

So what created the spontaneous creation ? Where did it come from ? What started it/the process ?

Hawking and his ilk come out with these silly non-science statements every so often and make themselves look stupid all over again. If he stuck to science, writing about things he's researched and knows about rather than these silly finger in the air guess works of bullst he might be better regarded.

It's like man made global warming all over again . . .. <sigh> . . .

[tonym911]

Even 'nothing' by our very limited understanding is 'something', ie a state of non-nothingness. True nothingness is surely impossible to conceive. Which, if true, actually precludes a god, because where did he/she/it come from etc.

[GKP]

bga said:

Alex said:

tonym911 said:

what there was before the Universe – irrespective of how it was created (a process which by definition implies something previous).

Time itself began with the creation of the universe, so there is no concept of "something previous".

This is where I struggle with the arguments for "big bang" and organised religion.
What was there before the universe was created? or what was there before <your favourite deity> came to be?

Both require belief or faith to conceptualise.

What's wrong with just saying "I don't know."? There's no need to make up fairy tales to cover a hole in one's knowledge.

[Alex]

There is no concept of "before" the Big Bang. Time began with the Big Bang, there can be no "before".

[Pothole]

I haven't read anything he's written but I suspect he says 'there is no God'.

[rudecherub]

There are lots of concepts of before the big bang, the big bang may in some models just be one of countless repeating events, among countless possible divergent realities.

Only a handful of people in the world can get their head around the maths involved with this, and I'm not one of them, however there was another news story which was about how the universe could have been created as science experiment.

Before anyone goes of the deep the end we've got accept everything is based on the faith we have in our senses been real.

[Road Pest]

What's the universe expanding into?

[superlightr]

death and taxes.

[VxDuncan]

Actually quite a surprize as I'd found the two Hawking books I've read (Brief History of Time and the Theory of Everything IIRC?) to be very allowing for the existance of god. Almost frustatingly so. Although I'm a non-beliver the fact the Hawking appeared to have other thoughts did make me wonder... Maybe this was the publishing company or him not wanting to upset people, who knows.

As far as what was before the big bang - my favorite little idea is that space and time act as a sine wave - the singularity prior to the big bang being the point at which we crossed through the zero point. Ie if time and space were constantly expanding and contracting between a positive and negative universe, then there would be a point at which spacetime would be neither positive nor negative. Of course I may be talking rubbish and for this to happen it would stand that the universe would at some point start contracting again into a singularity / giant blackhole. How this mechanism would work I have no idea!

[tonym911]

I veer towards the GKP position of simply accepting that we don't know everything. You could say in fact that it is incredibly presumptuous of anyone to assume they can use their hopelessly limited human experience to 'work out' something as gobsmacking as the universe.

[patmahe]

Road Pest said:

What's the universe expanding into?

This is the one that always gets me, if you could 'overtake' the edge of the expanding universe where would you be when you got to the other side?

[Brink]

patmahe said:

Road Pest said:

What's the universe expanding into?

This is the one that always gets me, if you could 'overtake' the edge of the expanding universe where would you be when you got to the other side?

There is no "other side" as such. There is no boundary that can be crossed.

[Dracoro]

Is it not the same discussion as the edge of the universe?

i.e.
1. What was before the big bang (as I remember it was a "hot sense state" then it expanded - what was this "hot dense state")
2. When you get to the edge of the universe and take one more step, what are you stepping into.

or in other words
the universe goes on forever and so has time.

Physicists have said that the universe is expanding all the time, but where is it expanding into?

It has to go on forever and it also has to stop somewhere. A contradiction but something not answered.

The same applies to "god" - when did god exist? who/what created god?

All of these are, to an extent, rhetorical questions.

[Dracoro]

Brink said:

patmahe said:

Road Pest said:

What's the universe expanding into?

This is the one that always gets me, if you could 'overtake' the edge of the expanding universe where would you be when you got to the other side?

There is no "other side" as such. There is no boundary that can be crossed.

Why not? What is the "other side" then? Or is there not "edge" in which case it can't be expanding.