Are BMW losing their way?

[mattpullen64]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think BMW are losing their way, especially with design. For example, the old E46 3-series, especially the M3 was a great looking car, and has worn time well. Loads of past Beemers that are now design classics. More recently, the Bangle influenced designs were a bit love it or hate it, but at least they were balanced and seemed to flow well with the eye (Z4 Coupe, last gen 5 series / V10 M5).

What's happened since though? The current 3-series looks ok, especially in coupe form, but the design still isn't balanced - even the current M3 looks a bit heavy from certain angles of the rear 3/4 and round the wheel arches. The new Z4 has some great features but they don't seem to all come together properly. The current 5 & 7 series look odd - and i've got no idea what's going on with the 5 series GT...

This isn't meant to cause offence to anyone that's got these cars, they're not ugly. It's just IMHO, BMW haven't got a single car on market currently that looks achingly good, is a well balanced design and massively desirable?

Anyone else feel the same or am I in the minority?

p.s. this isn't knocking the capability of the cars, just the design.

[Bumble SV]

mattpullen64 said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think BMW are losing their way, especially with design. For example, the old E46 3-series, especially the M3 was a great looking car, and has worn time well. Loads of past Beemers that are now design classics. More recently, the Bangle influenced designs were a bit love it or hate it, but at least they were balanced and seemed to flow well with the eye (Z4 Coupe, last gen 5 series / V10 M5).

What's happened since though? The current 3-series looks ok, especially in coupe form, but the design still isn't balanced - even the current M3 looks a bit heavy from certain angles of the rear 3/4 and round the wheel arches. The new Z4 has some great features but they don't seem to all come together properly. The current 5 & 7 series look odd - and i've got no idea what's going on with the 5 series GT...

This isn't meant to cause offence to anyone that's got these cars, they're not ugly. It's just IMHO, BMW haven't got a single car on market currently that looks achingly good, is a well balanced design and massively desirable?

Anyone else feel the same or am I in the minority?

p.s. this isn't knocking the capability of the cars, just the design.

I agree. I don't like the look of the new 5 or 7 - i think it is particularly the immense kidneys. If anything I now really really like the e60 design.

[4rephill]

mattpullen64 said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think BMW are losing their way, especially with design. For example, the old E46 3-series, especially the M3 was a great looking car, and has worn time well. Loads of past Beemers that are now design classics. More recently, the Bangle influenced designs were a bit love it or hate it, but at least they were balanced and seemed to flow well with the eye (Z4 Coupe, last gen 5 series / V10 M5).

What's happened since though? The current 3-series looks ok, especially in coupe form, but the design still isn't balanced - even the current M3 looks a bit heavy from certain angles of the rear 3/4 and round the wheel arches. The new Z4 has some great features but they don't seem to all come together properly. The current 5 & 7 series look odd - and i've got no idea what's going on with the 5 series GT...

This isn't meant to cause offence to anyone that's got these cars, they're not ugly. It's just IMHO, BMW haven't got a single car on market currently that looks achingly good, is a well balanced design and massively desirable?

Anyone else feel the same or am I in the minority?

p.s. this isn't knocking the capability of the cars, just the design.

Can't see what your saying about the Z4 roadster:
http://www.cubiccapacity.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW-Z4-R...
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/ar...
http://www.therealfun.com/wallpapers/2009_BMW_Z4_r...

Makes Me ache for one every time I see one!.

Horses for courses I guess.

[Luca Brasi]

Agree, the new 5 and 7 are ok but not like for example the E39 and E38, I'd love to own a late E38 740i Sport, just a timeless, beautiful car and you can buy them for next to nothing nowadays.

The 1-series is a great little car but I don't know about the looks. Same goes for the E90 3-series, in basic trim that just looks terribly bland.

The X1, X3, 5GT and X6 are just wilfully awful, I don't know why people buy them.

Z4 is ok but I liked the previous one better.

The 6-series is still a very good GT car and will be an absolute bargain in a few years but I doubt that it will be as the desirable as an E24 or an 8-series. Hope the next generation will look better.

Edited by Luca Brasi on Sunday 5th September 16:19

[Luca Brasi]

I mean look at this
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1855924.htm

Now that's a BMW.

[playerone]

I'm not sure about losing their way but I think the premium tag atributed to German cars is losing its shine. The drive to cut costs means material quality has degraded massively. The leather used in the 3 Series is a awful. Skoda use nicer materials.

One thing about BMW design is it seems to age very well compared to most. I think the Bangle cars have actually improved as, ironically, other car makers have used some of the design elements.

Prior to that I think an E46 M Sport or M3 is still one of the most complete designs ever.

[Zod]

In some ways yes, e.g. X6 and X5 M for instance. The 5 GT is ugly, but brilliant. The new 5 and 7 for me are good-looking, utterly competent cars. The M3 GTS is good, but overpriced and overweight. Otherwise, they are doing very well. Hence their healthy sales

In general, whatever major step they take and are criticised for, whether styling (current S Class has a Bangle arse) or iDrive (Mercedes Command and Audi MMC), ends up being copied and becoming market standard, whilst being improved by BMW in the meantime.

[RobM77]

I can't speak for the design or the "premium" image, because neither really interest me. From an engineering and driving point of view though I do think BMW are losing their way, yes.

• Drive by wire throttle. BMW still haven't managed to produce a system that gives a throttle response to match the old cable systems, or even what Audi and Mercedes are doing. I've driven a lot of different BMWs, including M cars, and the best throttle response I've seen is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk as you can see, it's still got a significant delay. That's just really poor engineering. There's no excuse, especially when Mercedes and Audi are doing so much better with similar engines.

• Model line up. You'd think that a company who pride themselves as making "the ultimate driving machine" and delivering a sporty drive would have a bias in their model range towards sporty cars. However, the 1300kg Z4 has been dropped in favour of a 1600kg Z4 with a folding hard top and optional jacuzzi, and there are now four off/soft roaders in the range - 1 sports car turns GT, four off roaders. The ultimate driving machine philosophy is becoming the ultimate posing machine. What's more, when it's come to making M versions of their cars, they've left the Z4 alone and have made M versions of two of their off roaders?! it may be customer demand, but if everyone did that then Rolex would become Casio and Ted Baker would turn into Top Man.

• M cars. The M3 is heavier than an ordinary 3 series. That says it all I think. Great car, I'm sure, but where's the M version?

• LSDs. I used to be an LSD cynic until I drove an E46 M3.

• iDrive. In most cars, if you fancy swapping from CD to FM radio you hit an FM button without taking your eyes off the road. In a BMW you have to go to Entertainment, scroll up to the radio bar and click, scroll right to FM, then have an accident. Terrible idea. In a 2007 car I just tried, it took me 3 minutes to enter a sat nav destination - the letters for the postcode were done on a wheel like a 1980s Atari console, and ewach one took about 3 seconds to respond. Unbelievably bad HCI - that sort of thing died out twenty years ago. They need to take a leaf out of the books of companies that make fighter jets - Mercedes and Porsche have it sussed with their multi-function buttons surrounding a display.

• Automatic gearboxes. Have these improved? The 2005 X3 I had for a week was dreadful. Mercedes, on the other hand, make beautiful auto boxes.

Naturally, I can vote with my feet, but that doesn't diminish the above comments. BMW can do better, they just need to try harder.

[daveco]

I agree with the OP I've bought 5 E46 derivatives and still think the facelift coupe with the M pack is BMW's most complete design ever. That and the 8 series

[Zod]

RobM77 said:

I can't speak for the design or the "premium" image, because neither really interest me. From an engineering and driving point of view though I do think BMW are losing their way, yes.

• Drive by wire throttle. BMW still haven't managed to produce a system that gives a throttle response to match the old cable systems, or even what Audi and Mercedes are doing. I've driven a lot of different BMWs, including M cars, and the best throttle response I've seen is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk as you can see, it's still got a significant delay. That's just really poor engineering. There's no excuse, especially when Mercedes and Audi are doing so much better with similar engines.

you are obsessed with this and utterly wrong about it. I haven't noticed any issue with throttle response in any BMW i've owned or any other one I've driven. There is no difference in throttle response between my M5 and my DB9. We were with Hans Stuck at the Ring a few years back in a CSL. He thought it's response was fantastic. His criticism was for e brakes. No reviewer has ever picked up on this "problem" that you perceive. The only cars I've driven in recent years with throttle response that was noticeably better have been Caterhams and the single seater at PalmerSport.

[Zod]

PS, Rob, iDrive now has shortcut buttons and Mercedes has dropped the multiple-button interface for an iDrive clone.

[TheEnd]

Reliability seems to be taking more of a hit these days too, DSC/DTC failures, headgaskets going again, the 4cyl valvetronics, swirl flaps, even timing chains snapping/jumping teeth.

I remember the good old days, when all that would go wrong is a water pump at 40 quid...

I don't think the newer designs stand out as much, but i still think the E60 5 series and the Z4 are great looking cars.

[RobM77]

Zod said:

RobM77 said:

I can't speak for the design or the "premium" image, because neither really interest me. From an engineering and driving point of view though I do think BMW are losing their way, yes.

• Drive by wire throttle. BMW still haven't managed to produce a system that gives a throttle response to match the old cable systems, or even what Audi and Mercedes are doing. I've driven a lot of different BMWs, including M cars, and the best throttle response I've seen is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk as you can see, it's still got a significant delay. That's just really poor engineering. There's no excuse, especially when Mercedes and Audi are doing so much better with similar engines.

you are obsessed with this and utterly wrong about it. I haven't noticed any issue with throttle response in any BMW i've owned or any other one I've driven. There is no difference in throttle response between my M5 and my DB9. We were with Hans Stuck at the Ring a few years back in a CSL. He thought it's response was fantastic. His criticism was for e brakes. No reviewer has ever picked up on this "problem" that you perceive. The only cars I've driven in recent years with throttle response that was noticeably better have been Caterhams and the single seater at PalmerSport.

Sorry, but you have no right to say that I'm wrong based purely on your own personal impressions of a car. You may not be able to feel it, but I can assure you it is there, and everyone here can watch that video that I posted and see it quite clearly.

Regarding Stuck's comments, I find them unusual with him being a very capable racing driver, although I haven't driven the CSL, so maybe it doesn't suffer from the problem, or perhaps this is something particular to Stuck's driving style that gets round the problem? I'll also add that I haven't driven the M5 either, so can't comment on that specific car. BMWs I have driven with the problem are: E46 330ci, 130i, 135i, 120i, 116i, E46 320i, X3 3.0i, Z4 Coupé and E46 M3. Have you driven any of those and noticed a problem?

Only yesterday I rode with a professional racing driver in a high performance road car on a race track and the DBW throttle way the first thing he mentioned as we went out onto the track - he said he couldn't do what he wanted to do with the car because of it.

In your defence, and having read your comments on a single seater (which one? FPA?) and a Caterham, are you sure you're not getting confused and thinking of throttle response, rather than throttle pedal response? Racing engines with lighter rotational masses and different intake etc (as fitted to Caterham R300s etc, and to many single seaters) have better throttle response (i.e. engine spool up time compared with the throttle opening time), but the throttle pedal response is based around the pedal/throttle actuation mechanism. Note that Caterhams (that you mentioned) use cable throttles (for a good reason!), as do plenty of racing cars based on road cars (Porsche Carrera Cup for example - DBW to cable is one of the biggest changes they make to the GT3 to take it racing), and racing cars with road engines often have cable throttles, such as the single seaters that I race. The DBW system is one of the first things that is binned upon conversion.

If you're not noticing it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Watch the video that I posted and you'll see it quite clearly. Check the other videos on my You Tube account as well - I've filmed a 320d (direct injection diesel) and an Elise (cable throttle 4 pot petrol) as well for comparison. If you still think there's no delay, then I'm afraid you'll have to produce some evidence of your own to prove your point.

If you're anywhere near Hook in Hampshire I can take you out in my Z4C to show you. It's immediately apparent and completely obvious, even though the Z4C has the smallest delay of any modern BMW that I've tried.

[patmahe]

To be honest I haven't liked a BMW since they got bangled, the E39 and E46 generation were ok but didn't really do it for me, the E34 5 series was IMO the peak of BMW design. Now they are instantly forgettable 'designs'.

The drive may still be there, but the feeling that a BMW is something special is long since dead. I mean look at the cars below, which simply does it for you?

[RobM77]

PS - design wise (in the spirit of the original thread!), I've just popped outside to have a look at all the different models (I work opposite a large BMW office). I actually quite like the latest 3 series, especially the coupe and the M3. The new Z4 looks good too; I certainly prefer the front end to my Z4C, although I prefer the more muscular rear end of my old shape Z4C. The 7 series lacks a bit of imagination, and I think the S Class looks better and less of a stretched version of smaller models. What I didn't like in my little look just now though was the 5 series GT; that looks absolutey hideous, and the latest 1 series and X3 look like they've got bulging eyes, like a deep sea fish As much as I fail to see the point of the X6, it's a tidy design, and the X6M has been done quite well. The 6 series is ok looking, although much like my Z4C, I'm not convinced about the rounded front end. Overall though, most of my criticisms were down to personal preference, I'm not sure that I strongly dislike the styling on any of them really.

[Zod]

RobM77 said:

Zod said:

RobM77 said:

I can't speak for the design or the "premium" image, because neither really interest me. From an engineering and driving point of view though I do think BMW are losing their way, yes.

• Drive by wire throttle. BMW still haven't managed to produce a system that gives a throttle response to match the old cable systems, or even what Audi and Mercedes are doing. I've driven a lot of different BMWs, including M cars, and the best throttle response I've seen is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk as you can see, it's still got a significant delay. That's just really poor engineering. There's no excuse, especially when Mercedes and Audi are doing so much better with similar engines.

you are obsessed with this and utterly wrong about it. I haven't noticed any issue with throttle response in any BMW i've owned or any other one I've driven. There is no difference in throttle response between my M5 and my DB9. We were with Hans Stuck at the Ring a few years back in a CSL. He thought it's response was fantastic. His criticism was for e brakes. No reviewer has ever picked up on this "problem" that you perceive. The only cars I've driven in recent years with throttle response that was noticeably better have been Caterhams and the single seater at PalmerSport.

Sorry, but you have no right to say that I'm wrong based purely on your own personal impressions of a car. You may not be able to feel it, but I can assure you it is there, and everyone here can watch that video that I posted and see it quite clearly.

Regarding Stuck's comments, I find them unusual with him being a very capable racing driver, although I haven't driven the CSL, so maybe it doesn't suffer from the problem, or perhaps this is something particular to Stuck's driving style that gets round the problem? I'll also add that I haven't driven the M5 either, so can't comment on that specific car. BMWs I have driven with the problem are: E46 330ci, 130i, 135i, 120i, 116i, E46 320i, X3 3.0i, Z4 Coupé and E46 M3. Have you driven any of those and noticed a problem?

Only yesterday I rode with a professional racing driver in a high performance road car on a race track and the DBW throttle way the first thing he mentioned as we went out onto the track - he said he couldn't do what he wanted to do with the car because of it.

In your defence, and having read your comments on a single seater (which one? FPA?) and a Caterham, are you sure you're not getting confused and thinking of throttle response, rather than throttle pedal response? Racing engines with lighter rotational masses and different intake etc (as fitted to Caterham R300s etc, and to many single seaters) have better throttle response (i.e. engine spool up time compared with the throttle opening time), but the throttle pedal response is based around the pedal/throttle actuation mechanism. Note that Caterhams (that you mentioned) use cable throttles (for a good reason!), as do plenty of racing cars based on road cars (Porsche Carrera Cup for example - DBW to cable is one of the biggest changes they make to the GT3 to take it racing), and racing cars with road engines often have cable throttles, such as the single seaters that I race. The DBW system is one of the first things that is binned upon conversion.

If you're not noticing it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Watch the video that I posted and you'll see it quite clearly. Check the other videos on my You Tube account as well - I've filmed a 320d (direct injection diesel) and an Elise (cable throttle 4 pot petrol) as well for comparison. If you still think there's no delay, then I'm afraid you'll have to produce some evidence of your own to prove your point.

If you're anywhere near Hook in Hampshire I can take you out in my Z4C to show you. It's immediately apparent and completely obvious, even though the Z4C has the smallest delay of any modern BMW that I've tried.

I could perhaps have been more measured in tone. I certainly accept that you cannot be imagining a problem in cars you drive, but I cannot detect any difference between the average BMW and the average Mercedes.

To reduce to my day-to-day experience, I can use the throttle pretty accurately to help me around corners (to the extent my limited ability allows) in the M5 and the DB9, without any perceptible delay in response.

[RLK500]

Anyone who has driven alternative marques will confirm that BMW and probably most other "elite" brands are losing their way, as competitors up their game.

I was a passenger in an E92 coupe a few weeks back and couldn't believe how little space their appeared to be inside. I am sure for rear seat passengers there is more space in my e30 than an e92. I suspect the volume figures are better for the e92, but how much of that space is turned over to the occupants is questionable.

I think they are just getting lazy.

[RobM77]

Zod said:

RobM77 said:

Zod said:

RobM77 said:

I can't speak for the design or the "premium" image, because neither really interest me. From an engineering and driving point of view though I do think BMW are losing their way, yes.

• Drive by wire throttle. BMW still haven't managed to produce a system that gives a throttle response to match the old cable systems, or even what Audi and Mercedes are doing. I've driven a lot of different BMWs, including M cars, and the best throttle response I've seen is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk as you can see, it's still got a significant delay. That's just really poor engineering. There's no excuse, especially when Mercedes and Audi are doing so much better with similar engines.

you are obsessed with this and utterly wrong about it. I haven't noticed any issue with throttle response in any BMW i've owned or any other one I've driven. There is no difference in throttle response between my M5 and my DB9. We were with Hans Stuck at the Ring a few years back in a CSL. He thought it's response was fantastic. His criticism was for e brakes. No reviewer has ever picked up on this "problem" that you perceive. The only cars I've driven in recent years with throttle response that was noticeably better have been Caterhams and the single seater at PalmerSport.

Sorry, but you have no right to say that I'm wrong based purely on your own personal impressions of a car. You may not be able to feel it, but I can assure you it is there, and everyone here can watch that video that I posted and see it quite clearly.

Regarding Stuck's comments, I find them unusual with him being a very capable racing driver, although I haven't driven the CSL, so maybe it doesn't suffer from the problem, or perhaps this is something particular to Stuck's driving style that gets round the problem? I'll also add that I haven't driven the M5 either, so can't comment on that specific car. BMWs I have driven with the problem are: E46 330ci, 130i, 135i, 120i, 116i, E46 320i, X3 3.0i, Z4 Coupé and E46 M3. Have you driven any of those and noticed a problem?

Only yesterday I rode with a professional racing driver in a high performance road car on a race track and the DBW throttle way the first thing he mentioned as we went out onto the track - he said he couldn't do what he wanted to do with the car because of it.

In your defence, and having read your comments on a single seater (which one? FPA?) and a Caterham, are you sure you're not getting confused and thinking of throttle response, rather than throttle pedal response? Racing engines with lighter rotational masses and different intake etc (as fitted to Caterham R300s etc, and to many single seaters) have better throttle response (i.e. engine spool up time compared with the throttle opening time), but the throttle pedal response is based around the pedal/throttle actuation mechanism. Note that Caterhams (that you mentioned) use cable throttles (for a good reason!), as do plenty of racing cars based on road cars (Porsche Carrera Cup for example - DBW to cable is one of the biggest changes they make to the GT3 to take it racing), and racing cars with road engines often have cable throttles, such as the single seaters that I race. The DBW system is one of the first things that is binned upon conversion.

If you're not noticing it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Watch the video that I posted and you'll see it quite clearly. Check the other videos on my You Tube account as well - I've filmed a 320d (direct injection diesel) and an Elise (cable throttle 4 pot petrol) as well for comparison. If you still think there's no delay, then I'm afraid you'll have to produce some evidence of your own to prove your point.

If you're anywhere near Hook in Hampshire I can take you out in my Z4C to show you. It's immediately apparent and completely obvious, even though the Z4C has the smallest delay of any modern BMW that I've tried.

I could perhaps have been more measured in tone. I certainly accept that you cannot be imagining a problem in cars you drive, but I cannot detect any difference between the average BMW and the average Mercedes.

To reduce to my day-to-day experience, I can use the throttle pretty accurately to help me around corners (to the extent my limited ability allows) in the M5 and the DB9, without any perceptible delay in response.

The delay is certainly there in all modern petrol BMWs, as clearly shown by my video evidence. I may be able to organise similar footage from a Mercedes if you like. The last Audi I drove was an RS4, and that didn't have a delay. Both Merc and Audi are unmistakably DBW, but there's no "nothing nothing nothing whoosh" like you get with a BMW or Porsche, or "nothing nothing nothing bang" like with a 350Z.

It's not surprising that you can't feel a delay when in a corner, I am referring to a delay in coming onto the throttle pedal from 0%, which is the test performed in all three of my videos that I linked to above. When you're already in a corner, as you state, you'll already be on a steady throttle (or should be!), enough to maintain speed by counteracting the drag of the car (aero + normal mech drag + additional mech cornering drag) and maintain a balance in the chassis front:rear, which usually requires about 10-40% throttle pedal deflection. The source of my complaint is mainly that when I turn in to a bend I am trying to attain this balancing throttle, and unlike steering, drivers don't tend to memorise where to put the throttle pedal (because it's different each time, depending on the gear and revs), one pushes the pedal till one feels a steady speed and balance. Well, because in a BMW (or Porsche, or many other makes of car) nothing happens when you initially push the pedal, you can't set this balance up straight away and you're left in limbo until suddenly the power that you've requested suddenly comes in, upsetting the car, and then you've got to work from there. Messy. Essentially, during the turn-in phase you can feel a coasting and then a slight jolt. It's also frustrating on hill starts and when pulling away at a junction having coasted up to it with 0% throttle in 2nd gear. Those latter two are what most people notice, and I've had many non car enthusiasts that I know mention that to me when they've test driven a new car (mainly women actually, and I've long suspected that more women are sensitive to things like this).

Without wishing to confuse things, in truth there is actually an effect in a corner if you need to adjust the balancing throttle, but it's upon backing off, not accelerating. It's also quite subtle. Many DBW cars hold on to revs when you back off (presumably to facilitate gearchanges up through the box), but what this means is that there's a slight delay when you close the throttle a little. This means balancing a car on the throttle is never as finely controlled with DBW as with a cable, and also wheelspin is difficult to judge precisely, such as when pulling away from rest.

Yes, cable throttles aren't perfect. For one thing they stick and they can even stretch a little and give a heavy throttle pedal if the linkage is complex (e.g. mid engined car) with a lot of friction (e.g. multiple carbs). In those respects, I prefer DBW, I just wish it could be engineered properly!!

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 7th September 12:07

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 7th September 12:10

[Wills2]

I liked the bangle era designs apart from the 7 series, they have aged quite well with the 5/z4/6 all still looking fresh compared to their rivals. The current range looks quite bland but I would imagine that has a lot to do with the EU safety regs than anything else.

I think the e92 m3 is the best looking car they do at the moment and will be the last NA M car (if the rumours are to be believed)

Anyway back OT what were we discussing? ah yes throttle response......

Edited by Wills2 on Tuesday 7th September 20:37

[Bumble SV]

Wills2 said:

Anyway back OT what were we discussing? are yes throttle response......

...or a potential lack of...