Cost of bathroom refurb - fair?
Discussion
I'm in the process of refurbing a family bathroom, involving a complete strip-out and new everything, so there will be plumbing, electrics, wall tiles and vinyl floor tiles, plastering plus a bit of carpentry. I’m trying to establish whether the labour element of the quote is fair. The designer initially estimated 10 days for the job, and a labour charge of £2,900 plus vat. Subsequent to a more detailed survey, this has risen to £3,700 plus vat (I’m assuming still 10 days at this stage).
Now I realise that the designer will have added a margin, but a daily rate of £290 - £370 does seem a bit rich. I’m guessing that skilled trade rates outside of the M25 are around £150 per day, which if accurate means 100% + mark-up. I’ve managed to establish that the breakdown for the 5 sq m of flooring (Amtico) is £250 materials and £520 labour, both plus vat, which seems even richer given the small area.
BTW, they will be supplying all the hardware, so this is not a fit only job.
Are they trying it on?
Now I realise that the designer will have added a margin, but a daily rate of £290 - £370 does seem a bit rich. I’m guessing that skilled trade rates outside of the M25 are around £150 per day, which if accurate means 100% + mark-up. I’ve managed to establish that the breakdown for the 5 sq m of flooring (Amtico) is £250 materials and £520 labour, both plus vat, which seems even richer given the small area.
BTW, they will be supplying all the hardware, so this is not a fit only job.
Are they trying it on?
seems a little steep but not way off. It depends on the particulars and size to be honest. Worth getting a couple more quotes. However I take it you have a qualified plumber and electrician working for you, so if its all neatly bundled up it could work out favourably.
If the work is good, then its worth your money.
If the work is good, then its worth your money.
Edited by GingerWizard on Wednesday 8th September 20:03
I did my bathroom last year.
Like yours, it was a complete strip out including all plaster off the wall (rectified tiles going on) and some stud work.
Between myself and my plumber mate it was stripped, plastered/ dry lined, complete new pipework for everything, floor ply'd and tiled, all fittings back in (bath, shower, back to wall toilet, double sink, big towel rail).
Took about 4 days between us and another 3 days for the tiler to tile just the walls.
I'm a decorator by trade and my plumber is a belts and braces type of chap - everything checked and double checked and checked again with only the best fittings (i.e - wet soldered pipes not plastic) and everything else above spec to be on the safe side.
He charged about £150 per day (I was free
) and the tiler cost me about £400 as he was a bit low on work.
Your quotes seem a little on the toppy side.
Like yours, it was a complete strip out including all plaster off the wall (rectified tiles going on) and some stud work.
Between myself and my plumber mate it was stripped, plastered/ dry lined, complete new pipework for everything, floor ply'd and tiled, all fittings back in (bath, shower, back to wall toilet, double sink, big towel rail).
Took about 4 days between us and another 3 days for the tiler to tile just the walls.
I'm a decorator by trade and my plumber is a belts and braces type of chap - everything checked and double checked and checked again with only the best fittings (i.e - wet soldered pipes not plastic) and everything else above spec to be on the safe side.
He charged about £150 per day (I was free
) and the tiler cost me about £400 as he was a bit low on work.Your quotes seem a little on the toppy side.
Is it 10 man days or 10 calendar days? If it's man days then the labour charge is very high! If it's calendar days how many men are going to be there?
I assume that you went to a specialist bathroom firm because you don't want to get your hands dirty and want people to come in and do it then hand over a finished bathroom. With this in mind you're always going to pay a premium. This premium will vary between firms.
The only way to get a comparrison is to go to a similar rival firm and ask them to quote like for like.
You could take on some of the work yourself - be it design, ordering materials, labouring or all three. This would reduce the money you pay out but will cost you in your time.
With this in mind a specialist firm will never be as cheap (in money terms) as a 'hands on' diy'er.
I assume that you went to a specialist bathroom firm because you don't want to get your hands dirty and want people to come in and do it then hand over a finished bathroom. With this in mind you're always going to pay a premium. This premium will vary between firms.
The only way to get a comparrison is to go to a similar rival firm and ask them to quote like for like.
You could take on some of the work yourself - be it design, ordering materials, labouring or all three. This would reduce the money you pay out but will cost you in your time.
With this in mind a specialist firm will never be as cheap (in money terms) as a 'hands on' diy'er.
Just paid up £3.9K (of the OH's money ) in advance 
to well known edge-of-town-shed outfit for a not-very-large bathroom complete strip and refit. Told it too will take 10 days. Includes fittings etc but not flooring or re-decoration.
Wouldn't normally give anyone the whole lot in advance but had few issues when they(i.e. their subbies)did out the kitchen.
) in advance to well known edge-of-town-shed outfit for a not-very-large bathroom complete strip and refit. Told it too will take 10 days. Includes fittings etc but not flooring or re-decoration.Wouldn't normally give anyone the whole lot in advance but had few issues when they(i.e. their subbies)did out the kitchen.
I typically charge around £2 - £2.5k labour for that kind of job (no VAT).
Timescale is about right.
Bear in mind they will also have plenty of money in the bits.
If you want to save money source the materials on-line or go to local specialists and find a local fitter (ideally through recommendation) who is happy to take on the entire project start to finish.
Timescale is about right.
Bear in mind they will also have plenty of money in the bits.
If you want to save money source the materials on-line or go to local specialists and find a local fitter (ideally through recommendation) who is happy to take on the entire project start to finish.
So, having queried / checked a few things with the designer, it seems that the only cut of the labour charge that he is getting is £200. His profit would come from the margin on materials (full rrp around £6K). I did ask how many man days the job would take, but in the absence of an answer, I think I will assume 10 man days. So we are back to a daily rate for the labour of £370 plus vat. I'm guessing that they don't want the job, and have priced it as such, so I'm now looking for another installer (not designer).
7.
7.
Number 7 said:
So, having queried / checked a few things with the designer, it seems that the only cut of the labour charge that he is getting is £200. His profit would come from the margin on materials (full rrp around £6K). I did ask how many man days the job would take, but in the absence of an answer, I think I will assume 10 man days. So we are back to a daily rate for the labour of £370 plus vat. I'm guessing that they don't want the job, and have priced it as such, so I'm now looking for another installer (not designer).
7.
To give you an example I paid £2.8k for mine to be completely stripped down to the bare bones and their quote included all rewiring, fitting of everything, supply and fit wet zone/area, supply and fit all the under floor heating, then the usual marine ply, plasterboard, tanking, painting... blah blah blah...7.
I supplied all the other stuff which came in at circa £3k but I went for half decent products and things like special basin and tiles that he couldnt get (both from italy)...
Im in SW london and if you want the person who did my bathroom/wet area to give you a quote then I can put him in touch?
If you want I have a link to pics that I show people who are asking about bathroom refurbs.
Thanks for the offer Dupont666. Sounds like you had more work done than I'm requiring (no tanking or painting required to be done by installer, and only a little bit of wiring). Kind of reinforces my view that the job was overpriced. I'll see how I get on with another local installer.
7.
7.
Number 7 said:
Thanks for the offer Dupont666. Sounds like you had more work done than I'm requiring (no tanking or painting required to be done by installer, and only a little bit of wiring). Kind of reinforces my view that the job was overpriced. I'll see how I get on with another local installer.
7.
Only difference is that I removed a bath and replaced it with a shower with no tray see here:7.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=395101&i...
and
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=385132&i...
shows you the level of work... Plus take into account that tiles and basin in mine cost £1.6k and the rest was just quality choosing and buying from different companies off the net, I think in the end it should have cost in excess of £6k for the parts but a good root around proved different.
Is that antalya limestone above?
Just done my bathroom and currently doing ensuite which is combined into the bedroom. Done both in antalya limestone 600x400 brick bond, looks amazing.
I have done all the work myself, complete rip out, moved stuff about, moved a wall 8", new everything, hudson reed sanitry ware, taps out the wall etc etc and it still cost me 4.5k with massive trade discounts, a couple of people i know in the trade tell me its a 10k bathroom which i could believe, i,m what i would describe as an expert diyer and i reckon including the tiling there was 12-15 man days in there.
Just done my bathroom and currently doing ensuite which is combined into the bedroom. Done both in antalya limestone 600x400 brick bond, looks amazing.
I have done all the work myself, complete rip out, moved stuff about, moved a wall 8", new everything, hudson reed sanitry ware, taps out the wall etc etc and it still cost me 4.5k with massive trade discounts, a couple of people i know in the trade tell me its a 10k bathroom which i could believe, i,m what i would describe as an expert diyer and i reckon including the tiling there was 12-15 man days in there.
Heres a couple of pics of mine, its quite small, but larger than it was. Its now 1.7m x 2.5m but feels large due to the way its set out and i think the sink makes it 'feel' bigger in there
from this (literally couldnt even get in there to take a picture
during
to this
in terms of how much you pay someone to do the job i,m not sure expense should within reason come into it. The vast majority of bathrooms i see are a hash of poor workmanship, poor material and poor design. If you get all 3 of the above right be it £200 or £300 per day its neither here nor there imo.
My girlfriends mate had their bathroom done, it cost them 5k, they have cheap everything and the workmanship is terrible, things like random varying joint witdths in the tiles, lips everywhere, humps in the walls, to them it looks great but to me it looks like 1.5k worth of bits and 3.5k worth of labour for what is a weeks work there (no major modification,no aquapanel or anything like that).
I am very lucky that i can do pretty much everything myself to an as high or higher standard than a lot of so called tradesman, that was the only way i could afford the use of nice materials and sanitryware tbh.
from this (literally couldnt even get in there to take a picture
during
to this
in terms of how much you pay someone to do the job i,m not sure expense should within reason come into it. The vast majority of bathrooms i see are a hash of poor workmanship, poor material and poor design. If you get all 3 of the above right be it £200 or £300 per day its neither here nor there imo.
My girlfriends mate had their bathroom done, it cost them 5k, they have cheap everything and the workmanship is terrible, things like random varying joint witdths in the tiles, lips everywhere, humps in the walls, to them it looks great but to me it looks like 1.5k worth of bits and 3.5k worth of labour for what is a weeks work there (no major modification,no aquapanel or anything like that).
I am very lucky that i can do pretty much everything myself to an as high or higher standard than a lot of so called tradesman, that was the only way i could afford the use of nice materials and sanitryware tbh.
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