Battle of Britain 70 years on
Discussion
70 years on, Battle of Britain pilots remember
Owen Burns remembers the cold, the howling wind, and the silk underwear he wore to protect him from the bitter cold. Ken Wilkinson recalls the solitude of combat, Nigel Rose the perverse disappointment of coming back from a mission unscathed.
They are a dwindling band, these men with firsthand memories of the Battle of Britain, an aerial fight for survival that came to a head 70 years ago Wednesday — and marked a turning point of World War II. They are modest icons, happy to reminisce and keep the past alive, but reluctant to dwell on either their bravery or their fear.
"There were times when you were really frightened, without a doubt," said Rose, a former Spitfire fighter pilot who is still dapper at 92. "But there wasn't much time to be really scared in the air."
Between July 10 and Oct. 31, 1940, German bombers pounded Britain's ports, airfields and cities in a bid to destroy its defenses in preparation for either invasion or surrender. France had already fallen to Adolf Hitler and the British army had been evacuated in disarray from Dunkirk.
The fate of Britain lay in the hands of men, barely out of their teens, sent up in Spitfires and Hurricanes to confront waves of Luftwaffe bombers. They are known as "The Few," from Prime Minister Winston Churchill's tribute: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
Sept. 15 was the symbolic climax to the battle, a day of heavy fighting in which British pilots shot down 60 German planes — though British propaganda at the time claimed three times as many. It is now commemorated as Battle of Britain Day, and veterans are gathering in London Wednesday for the unveiling of a bronze statue of Air Vice-Marshal Keith Park, the Royal Air Force commander in charge of defending the capital and southeast England.
Of almost 3,000 British and Allied airmen who flew in the battle, more than 544 were killed. Almost 800 more died before the end of the war.
It is thought about 100 Battle of Britain veterans survive: silver-haired men in navy blazers with a resolute cheerfulness and a matter-of-fact manner.
"We were cocky. Stupidly cocky, if you like," said Wilkinson, 92, who flew Spitfires. "We just didn't envisage defeat. Some people may have been killed and so forth, but basically we knew we were going to win."
Victory seemed unlikely at the outset. France had fallen and the U.S. had yet to enter the war. Britain — with its empire — was the lone Western holdout against Nazi Germany and endured heavy bombing, rallied by Churchill's resolute declaration that the country would "never surrender."
Stephen Bungay, author of a book about the Battle of Britain, "The Most Dangerous Enemy," thinks it was a pivotal moment in British — and world — history.
"If the Luftwaffe had been able to establish air superiority and subject London to unobstructed bombing round the clock," he said, Britain would not have remained in the war, leaving Hitler triumphant across Europe, opposed only by the Soviet Union.
"Churchill's speeches of the time were incredibly prescient," Bungay said. "He said 'We are fighting by ourselves alone, but we are not fighting for ourselves alone.'"
Time and nostalgia have laid a mythic gloss on The Few. The pilots are seen as romantic, solitary figures, combining the chivalry of a bygone age of one-on-one combat with the machine power of modern war.
The mythology was encouraged by Churchill, Bungay said. "He needed heroes at the time."
Bungay said the heroism of the pilots and the mystique of The Few have obscured the role played by commanders like Park and the well-organized air defense system established by the head of Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding.
He said the Germans "were basically out-generaled and never really understood how tough a nut they'd taken on."
The pilots themselves are eager to shoot down some of the myths — such as the supposed superiority of the Spitfire and the Hurricane over German fighter planes.
"We had pea shooters for guns," said Tom Neil, 90, who shot down 17 enemy aircraft and won the Distinguished Flying Cross as a Hurricane pilot. "Three hundred rounds per gun, which could go 14.7 seconds. The Germans had 100 rounds per gun and 60 rounds for their cannons. They could destroy us with four shots of their explosive ammunition. We sometimes had to hit an aircraft with 100 shots before we even damaged it."
Like many myths, though, the popular image of The Few contains a large element of truth. Air combat was a thrilling, solitary pursuit.
"It's a single-seater aircraft, so you're in complete charge of everything you do once you're in combat," said Wilkinson. "You have to concentrate, because once you are in combat it's man against man, pilot against pilot."
Burns, 95, was a gunner in a Blenheim fighter-bomber. The plane had a three-man crew but he, too, remembers the solitude of sitting alone in his elevated turret.
"You're on your own, completely. You can hear the two people up front talking, and you are sitting all by yourself, and wind is howling around you.
"Silk underwear — that was essential. You had about four lots of underwear, rising from silk to thick stuff."
All agree that the intense concentration and the frantic pace of the battle left little time to be scared. Air crews were often scrambled several times a day, snatching a few hours' sleep between missions.
"All you're concentrating on is getting back to Earth again," Burns said. "And when you got out of the aircraft and saw the holes, sometimes you'd been riddled with bullets."
They are all eager to downplay their youthful bravery. They are dismissive of their brushes with death. They do not dwell on the comrades who never returned.
Bungay says that "no fighting force in history has had such an anti-heroic ethos. The thing that makes them angry is people who acted like prima donnas."
Rose, who flew was wounded in September 1940, said that whenever the planes landed, ground crew were "very disappointed if we hadn't been in action, and I think so were we."
"It's funny how enthusiastic one was, despite the frights and the rest of it."
___
Online:
RAF Battle of Britain site: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html
Churchill War Rooms: http://cwr.iwm.org.uk
Owen Burns remembers the cold, the howling wind, and the silk underwear he wore to protect him from the bitter cold. Ken Wilkinson recalls the solitude of combat, Nigel Rose the perverse disappointment of coming back from a mission unscathed.
They are a dwindling band, these men with firsthand memories of the Battle of Britain, an aerial fight for survival that came to a head 70 years ago Wednesday — and marked a turning point of World War II. They are modest icons, happy to reminisce and keep the past alive, but reluctant to dwell on either their bravery or their fear.
"There were times when you were really frightened, without a doubt," said Rose, a former Spitfire fighter pilot who is still dapper at 92. "But there wasn't much time to be really scared in the air."
Between July 10 and Oct. 31, 1940, German bombers pounded Britain's ports, airfields and cities in a bid to destroy its defenses in preparation for either invasion or surrender. France had already fallen to Adolf Hitler and the British army had been evacuated in disarray from Dunkirk.
The fate of Britain lay in the hands of men, barely out of their teens, sent up in Spitfires and Hurricanes to confront waves of Luftwaffe bombers. They are known as "The Few," from Prime Minister Winston Churchill's tribute: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
Sept. 15 was the symbolic climax to the battle, a day of heavy fighting in which British pilots shot down 60 German planes — though British propaganda at the time claimed three times as many. It is now commemorated as Battle of Britain Day, and veterans are gathering in London Wednesday for the unveiling of a bronze statue of Air Vice-Marshal Keith Park, the Royal Air Force commander in charge of defending the capital and southeast England.
Of almost 3,000 British and Allied airmen who flew in the battle, more than 544 were killed. Almost 800 more died before the end of the war.
It is thought about 100 Battle of Britain veterans survive: silver-haired men in navy blazers with a resolute cheerfulness and a matter-of-fact manner.
"We were cocky. Stupidly cocky, if you like," said Wilkinson, 92, who flew Spitfires. "We just didn't envisage defeat. Some people may have been killed and so forth, but basically we knew we were going to win."
Victory seemed unlikely at the outset. France had fallen and the U.S. had yet to enter the war. Britain — with its empire — was the lone Western holdout against Nazi Germany and endured heavy bombing, rallied by Churchill's resolute declaration that the country would "never surrender."
Stephen Bungay, author of a book about the Battle of Britain, "The Most Dangerous Enemy," thinks it was a pivotal moment in British — and world — history.
"If the Luftwaffe had been able to establish air superiority and subject London to unobstructed bombing round the clock," he said, Britain would not have remained in the war, leaving Hitler triumphant across Europe, opposed only by the Soviet Union.
"Churchill's speeches of the time were incredibly prescient," Bungay said. "He said 'We are fighting by ourselves alone, but we are not fighting for ourselves alone.'"
Time and nostalgia have laid a mythic gloss on The Few. The pilots are seen as romantic, solitary figures, combining the chivalry of a bygone age of one-on-one combat with the machine power of modern war.
The mythology was encouraged by Churchill, Bungay said. "He needed heroes at the time."
Bungay said the heroism of the pilots and the mystique of The Few have obscured the role played by commanders like Park and the well-organized air defense system established by the head of Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding.
He said the Germans "were basically out-generaled and never really understood how tough a nut they'd taken on."
The pilots themselves are eager to shoot down some of the myths — such as the supposed superiority of the Spitfire and the Hurricane over German fighter planes.
"We had pea shooters for guns," said Tom Neil, 90, who shot down 17 enemy aircraft and won the Distinguished Flying Cross as a Hurricane pilot. "Three hundred rounds per gun, which could go 14.7 seconds. The Germans had 100 rounds per gun and 60 rounds for their cannons. They could destroy us with four shots of their explosive ammunition. We sometimes had to hit an aircraft with 100 shots before we even damaged it."
Like many myths, though, the popular image of The Few contains a large element of truth. Air combat was a thrilling, solitary pursuit.
"It's a single-seater aircraft, so you're in complete charge of everything you do once you're in combat," said Wilkinson. "You have to concentrate, because once you are in combat it's man against man, pilot against pilot."
Burns, 95, was a gunner in a Blenheim fighter-bomber. The plane had a three-man crew but he, too, remembers the solitude of sitting alone in his elevated turret.
"You're on your own, completely. You can hear the two people up front talking, and you are sitting all by yourself, and wind is howling around you.
"Silk underwear — that was essential. You had about four lots of underwear, rising from silk to thick stuff."
All agree that the intense concentration and the frantic pace of the battle left little time to be scared. Air crews were often scrambled several times a day, snatching a few hours' sleep between missions.
"All you're concentrating on is getting back to Earth again," Burns said. "And when you got out of the aircraft and saw the holes, sometimes you'd been riddled with bullets."
They are all eager to downplay their youthful bravery. They are dismissive of their brushes with death. They do not dwell on the comrades who never returned.
Bungay says that "no fighting force in history has had such an anti-heroic ethos. The thing that makes them angry is people who acted like prima donnas."
Rose, who flew was wounded in September 1940, said that whenever the planes landed, ground crew were "very disappointed if we hadn't been in action, and I think so were we."
"It's funny how enthusiastic one was, despite the frights and the rest of it."
___
Online:
RAF Battle of Britain site: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html
Churchill War Rooms: http://cwr.iwm.org.uk
Smashed said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
I wonder how the current generation would cope with a similar situation.
Do you mean current pilots or just general population? I'd imagine a lot of young guys would be just as brave as the guys that fought 70 years ago.
Don't forget that, for every hero, there were ten that were afraid to fire a gun.
Those ten would never been sent up there of course...
In fact, the ones shooting (on either side) could also be seen as the very stupid ones.
The ones in the air (on either side) were sent up there by someone they may have never seen, in a remote location. Completely brainwashed they go up there shooting other completely brainwashed "heroes".
Cut the head off the snake would be a much better proposition.
As someone once said:
"I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in."
ZesPak said:
Smashed said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
I wonder how the current generation would cope with a similar situation.
Do you mean current pilots or just general population? I'd imagine a lot of young guys would be just as brave as the guys that fought 70 years ago.ZesPak said:
In fact, the ones shooting (on either side) could also be seen as the very stupid ones.
The ones in the air (on either side) were sent up there by someone they may have never seen, in a remote location. Completely brainwashed they go up there shooting other completely brainwashed "heroes".
You're right. We should have surrendered in May 1940 and handed Western Europe to the Third Reich. With no allied to base from which to launch a D-Day, the Third Reich would probably still be going strong. How silly of us to want to defend our homeland.The ones in the air (on either side) were sent up there by someone they may have never seen, in a remote location. Completely brainwashed they go up there shooting other completely brainwashed "heroes".
The problem with idealists is that they assume everybody else is an idealist. Sadly, eventually somebody picks up a gun and starts shooting. If you do nothing, they win. What they do with you and your family after that depends how nice or otherwise they are.
ZesPak said:
Smashed said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
I wonder how the current generation would cope with a similar situation.
Do you mean current pilots or just general population? I'd imagine a lot of young guys would be just as brave as the guys that fought 70 years ago.Don't forget that, for every hero, there were ten that were afraid to fire a gun.
Those ten would never been sent up there of course...
In fact, the ones shooting (on either side) could also be seen as the very stupid ones.
The ones in the air (on either side) were sent up there by someone they may have never seen, in a remote location. Completely brainwashed they go up there shooting other completely brainwashed "heroes".
Cut the head off the snake would be a much better proposition.
As someone once said:
"I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in."
Brave young men (and nowadays young women) prepared to stand up for their country are what stops aggressors rolling over one's country in their rush to take over.
I'm fed up with people minimising the young folks who fight, now and then.
Personally I feel proud of the people in the RAF, Army and Royal Navy. They make me proud to be a Brit.
Brainwashed? Like hell...
Can I too add my comments regarding ZesPak's remarks.
Does he REALLY think thet the 5 million men and women who fought in the British Armed Forces during WW2 were deluded and brainwashed?
Who brainwashed them?
What were they deluded about?
Does he REALLY think thet the 5 million men and women who fought in the British Armed Forces during WW2 were deluded and brainwashed?
Who brainwashed them?
What were they deluded about?
Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 16th September 16:38
I can see where you guys are coming from, and I agree on the likes of the battle of britain that they were brave men defending their country.
But against what? Against other "brave young men" who fought for the ideal of a deluded small man. As much as the guys in the german planes were Nazi's, they still were brainwashed young men that ought to be taken down because they were wreaking havoc.
I remember stories of Germans and Allies gathering up in the trenches to play cards. They were all just a bunch of young men sent there by people they don't know for a reason they don't know, just to kill each other.
I'm not impressed, however, by current armies. Going to fight in the Gulf for "democracy" and "oil", oh I mean "freedom". They are not defending anything, they're fighting for someone even further away from them for a reason they understand even less...
But yes, that will be me. But I won't defend in any way that the current RAF and other military organisations are "fighting for their country".
The ones fighting for their country now are the "extremists" in the middle east, because someone is trying to force ideals on them they don't understand.
But against what? Against other "brave young men" who fought for the ideal of a deluded small man. As much as the guys in the german planes were Nazi's, they still were brainwashed young men that ought to be taken down because they were wreaking havoc.
I remember stories of Germans and Allies gathering up in the trenches to play cards. They were all just a bunch of young men sent there by people they don't know for a reason they don't know, just to kill each other.
I'm not impressed, however, by current armies. Going to fight in the Gulf for "democracy" and "oil", oh I mean "freedom". They are not defending anything, they're fighting for someone even further away from them for a reason they understand even less...
But yes, that will be me. But I won't defend in any way that the current RAF and other military organisations are "fighting for their country".
The ones fighting for their country now are the "extremists" in the middle east, because someone is trying to force ideals on them they don't understand.
PS:
Reminds me of a story a couple of years ago of a family in which the dad used the eldest sister as a tool to torture/hit/abuse her younger siblings.
They lived in captivity for over 16 years, and the eldest one got orders from her father.
After the father died, they got out.
Should the eldest one need professional help? Yes
Should she be put in jail? Perhaps
Does she deserve to die? Imho, NO. Train a dog to kill people and it will kill people, for you. It doesn't make him a bad dog, just a well trained one.
Reminds me of a story a couple of years ago of a family in which the dad used the eldest sister as a tool to torture/hit/abuse her younger siblings.
They lived in captivity for over 16 years, and the eldest one got orders from her father.
After the father died, they got out.
Should the eldest one need professional help? Yes
Should she be put in jail? Perhaps
Does she deserve to die? Imho, NO. Train a dog to kill people and it will kill people, for you. It doesn't make him a bad dog, just a well trained one.
All wars are not the same. Some are inevitable, many are justified and some are just plain wrong and ill judged.
Those who have to fight in them generally do as they are ordered to do - that is the lot of the serving soldier and part of the compact they sign on entering the armed forces.
Of all wars, World War 2 stands out as one that the generally democratic nations had no choice but to contest - and most of those who served with the Allies knew this.
As for the Germans and Japanese (and the other nations which fought with them), all those nations had their own agendas which to them, at the time, seemed right and proper.
The vast bulk of those fighting with the Germans were not ardent Nazis but there is no doubt that they felt it was their duty to fight for their country - a duty which became more and more obvious as the tide of war turned against them.
Those who have to fight in them generally do as they are ordered to do - that is the lot of the serving soldier and part of the compact they sign on entering the armed forces.
Of all wars, World War 2 stands out as one that the generally democratic nations had no choice but to contest - and most of those who served with the Allies knew this.
As for the Germans and Japanese (and the other nations which fought with them), all those nations had their own agendas which to them, at the time, seemed right and proper.
The vast bulk of those fighting with the Germans were not ardent Nazis but there is no doubt that they felt it was their duty to fight for their country - a duty which became more and more obvious as the tide of war turned against them.
ZesPak said:
Against other "brave young men" who fought for the ideal of a deluded small man. As much as the guys in the german planes were Nazi's, they still were brainwashed young men that ought to be taken down because they were wreaking havoc.
Not every German serviceman was a Nazi (ie member of the Nazi party) - in fact I think most were not. But you have to put this in historical context. Germans had seen their country utterly destroyed in WW1 and they detested the Treaty of Versailles: see the terms at www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWversailles.htm. WW2 was a direct result of these, the motivation for most was to regain national pride and 'pay back' the victors. If you read 'Spitfire on my Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper you'll see how it made perfect sense to him and his colleagues - and nothing to do with Nazis.What do you mean by 'taken down'?
ZesPak said:
I'm not impressed, however, by current armies. Going to fight in the Gulf for "democracy" and "oil", oh I mean "freedom". They are not defending anything, they're fighting for someone even further away from them for a reason they understand even less...
I agree it's a waste of time, money and life and would pull them out tomorrow. But oil is actually a very sensible thing to fight for - it's third after food and water. No oil = no civilisation as we know it.Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 17th September 08:00
Simpo Two said:
ZesPak said:
Against other "brave young men" who fought for the ideal of a deluded small man. As much as the guys in the german planes were Nazi's, they still were brainwashed young men that ought to be taken down because they were wreaking havoc.
Not every German serviceman was a Nazi (ie member of the Nazi party) - in fact I think most were not. But you have to put this in historical context. Germans had seen their country utterly destroyed in WW1 and they detested the Treaty of Versailles: see the terms at www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWversailles.htm. WW2 was a direct result of these, the motivation for most was to regain national pride and 'pay back' the victors. If you read 'Spitfire on my Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper you'll see how it made perfect sense to him and his colleagues - and nothing to do with Nazis.What do you mean by 'taken down'?
ZesPak said:
I'm not impressed, however, by current armies. Going to fight in the Gulf for "democracy" and "oil", oh I mean "freedom". They are not defending anything, they're fighting for someone even further away from them for a reason they understand even less...
I agree it's a waste of time, money and life and would pull them out tomorrow. But oil is actually a very sensible thing to fight for - it's third after food and water. No oil = no civilisation as we know it.As for oil, I know, we need it, but what would we say if the African countries came for us, at war, because we have plenty of food and don't provide them?
And yes, I see almost every war as "wrong" and I'm no pacifist. I never had to fight for myself while some of the people I know see it as the only way to solve a conflict from time to time.
There is a difference of course if you are defending your country, but there almost ALWAYS is a side that is defending their country.
Unless everybody decides to fight it's war on Belgium territory, that is
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