So how many of you have had tuition?
Discussion
It suprises me how crap some driving is on track, just in the REALLY poor ways, bad observation, bad behaviour, the sort you come up behind and think "idiot" etc before you then get to bad lines, braking, etc but good behavour and fine except actual skills.
So how many trackday drivers have taken up the tuition offered?
I had two lots of tuition on my 1st ever trackday about 8 years ago at Combe and last month I had some more at Abingdon. The initial tuition was great and made a good base to progress from, lines, braking, when to be on throttle etc.
The more recent tuition after the first few laps doing it I realised wasn't really helpful as it just told me what I now need to do but didn't address it at all. i.e. I was told my lines are good, my brakings good etc, nothing to tell you - I had a head shaked and asked if there was anything more specific I wanted to learn as I was fine generally. I thought generally I drive respectable but I'm a bit rubbish on correcting if I get it wrong - so I was basically told I just need to do a car limits style day so I'm better at controlling slides. So that next on the agenda.
Are there many that have never had any tuition? I suspect there are because even in cars I see often on trackdays lines are rubbish and the drivers slow for what they are behind the wheel of.
So tuition or none?
So how many trackday drivers have taken up the tuition offered?
I had two lots of tuition on my 1st ever trackday about 8 years ago at Combe and last month I had some more at Abingdon. The initial tuition was great and made a good base to progress from, lines, braking, when to be on throttle etc.
The more recent tuition after the first few laps doing it I realised wasn't really helpful as it just told me what I now need to do but didn't address it at all. i.e. I was told my lines are good, my brakings good etc, nothing to tell you - I had a head shaked and asked if there was anything more specific I wanted to learn as I was fine generally. I thought generally I drive respectable but I'm a bit rubbish on correcting if I get it wrong - so I was basically told I just need to do a car limits style day so I'm better at controlling slides. So that next on the agenda.
Are there many that have never had any tuition? I suspect there are because even in cars I see often on trackdays lines are rubbish and the drivers slow for what they are behind the wheel of.
So tuition or none?
I had a little bit, not when I started, but five or six track days in.
I've done quite a lot of car control type stuff before so I didn't really find I needed anything extra on that side of things, but it was extremely useful to get the right lines on an unfamiliar track (particularly when 'said track is Bedford with very few landmarks to get your bearings). Even with a certain amount of track driving under my belt I turned out to be taking some very funny lines.
I'd recommend it. Having someone doing the cerebal bit - picking lines, watching out for faster traffic and letting you know where you could push harder - frees up more of your mental capacity for the driving.
I've done quite a lot of car control type stuff before so I didn't really find I needed anything extra on that side of things, but it was extremely useful to get the right lines on an unfamiliar track (particularly when 'said track is Bedford with very few landmarks to get your bearings). Even with a certain amount of track driving under my belt I turned out to be taking some very funny lines.
I'd recommend it. Having someone doing the cerebal bit - picking lines, watching out for faster traffic and letting you know where you could push harder - frees up more of your mental capacity for the driving.
I've been racing and trackday driving for over 10 years, I still take tuition every now and again.
Only a fool would think they had nothing to learn, even if you know the circuit and are quick, neat and mechanically sympathetic there's always discussions to be had and experiences to be shared.
Basic trackday instruction though tends to be for the more uninitiated driver,once you have the basic techniques it's harder to get decent tuition on lines around a specific circuit from someone who doesn't use the circuit regularly.
However if you mention what you're looking for to the TDO they ought to be able to find you someone who is either based at the circuit or races there regularly - try getting Ed Moore to show you round Combe for instance and I'll guarantee you'll be appreciably quicker (I gained 1.5 seconds a lap after a 20 minute session with Ed a few years back).
Only a fool would think they had nothing to learn, even if you know the circuit and are quick, neat and mechanically sympathetic there's always discussions to be had and experiences to be shared.
Basic trackday instruction though tends to be for the more uninitiated driver,once you have the basic techniques it's harder to get decent tuition on lines around a specific circuit from someone who doesn't use the circuit regularly.
However if you mention what you're looking for to the TDO they ought to be able to find you someone who is either based at the circuit or races there regularly - try getting Ed Moore to show you round Combe for instance and I'll guarantee you'll be appreciably quicker (I gained 1.5 seconds a lap after a 20 minute session with Ed a few years back).
I've always had tuition, I was fortunate enough to have some car control tuition when I was in forces, not the same as trackday instruction but really opens your eyes to what a car can do in the right hands.
You can always tell the guy who has had decent instruction over the one who hasn't when on track, the Nurburgring track being a prime example where i would say 99% of drivers on TF haven't, scary.
I prefer and would recommend the older instructors over some of the young buck instructors thou.
Actually I'm in the process of sorting a tuition day with Mike Wilds at Oulton Park.
I do find it funny owners will spends £££££ on engine upgrades etc but not decent tuition.
You can always tell the guy who has had decent instruction over the one who hasn't when on track, the Nurburgring track being a prime example where i would say 99% of drivers on TF haven't, scary.
I prefer and would recommend the older instructors over some of the young buck instructors thou.
Actually I'm in the process of sorting a tuition day with Mike Wilds at Oulton Park.
I do find it funny owners will spends £££££ on engine upgrades etc but not decent tuition.
Edited by TVRMARKUB on Friday 17th September 15:01
haven't done many trackdays but always try and get tuition if i can.
first ever trackday i done was at brands and i was a nervous wreck! went out with the guys on the sxoc forum and i had tuition booked. i think it was because of the traffic but i only managed to get one very slow lap in before i just pulled back into the pits. tutor was available so took me out, at first generally letting me get on with it and then just giving me tips here and there.
what an education!
stayed out for 20-25 minutes by which time i was absolutely knackered! the level of concentration required felt unreal. i was starting to make mistakes which i'm sure if i could feel, the tutor obviously could as well so probably brought me in for our own safety lol.
the nurburgring was next. got in contact with dale at RSR on the northloop forum. when we arrived he first took us out for a lap in a 3.0 litre alfa 75. didnt seem very quick to accelerate but was absolutely epic everywhere else. suitably humbled we went in my car and he was/is just the sort of person i'd want, knowledgeable, friendly and knows how to get the most out of you.
at one point on the circuit he said flat out with ease, being a corner where your deep into fourth gear and it being my first visit he could feel me wavering on the throttle. he either pressed my right knee down or acted as if he would (genuinely can't remember) and we went round foot to the floor with me screaming like a little girl
then recently i done castle comble. he only stayed maybe three laps in the car but my rear pads were metal to metal so can't really blame him
thing is though, while i felt comfortable round the whole circuit, the first corner (quarry) was just doing my head in, just couldn't get any consistency and it just felt wrong. a few words from the tutor and all sorted, quicker, smoother and safer which os what all the tutors helped with.
first ever trackday i done was at brands and i was a nervous wreck! went out with the guys on the sxoc forum and i had tuition booked. i think it was because of the traffic but i only managed to get one very slow lap in before i just pulled back into the pits. tutor was available so took me out, at first generally letting me get on with it and then just giving me tips here and there.
what an education!
stayed out for 20-25 minutes by which time i was absolutely knackered! the level of concentration required felt unreal. i was starting to make mistakes which i'm sure if i could feel, the tutor obviously could as well so probably brought me in for our own safety lol.
the nurburgring was next. got in contact with dale at RSR on the northloop forum. when we arrived he first took us out for a lap in a 3.0 litre alfa 75. didnt seem very quick to accelerate but was absolutely epic everywhere else. suitably humbled we went in my car and he was/is just the sort of person i'd want, knowledgeable, friendly and knows how to get the most out of you.
at one point on the circuit he said flat out with ease, being a corner where your deep into fourth gear and it being my first visit he could feel me wavering on the throttle. he either pressed my right knee down or acted as if he would (genuinely can't remember) and we went round foot to the floor with me screaming like a little girl
then recently i done castle comble. he only stayed maybe three laps in the car but my rear pads were metal to metal so can't really blame him
thing is though, while i felt comfortable round the whole circuit, the first corner (quarry) was just doing my head in, just couldn't get any consistency and it just felt wrong. a few words from the tutor and all sorted, quicker, smoother and safer which os what all the tutors helped with.
Edited by irf on Friday 17th September 17:35
Yep when I can I do.
I started off with a full days one on one tuition and now book it when I can.
I am booked on at Rockingham on Monday with a group of 2 others and we have booked the whole day someone who while not an instructor as such he races for a living, just to give us all instruction on lines and any specifics you need to know for that circuit.
If nothing else it reduces the time it take before you can get a good time going.
I started off with a full days one on one tuition and now book it when I can.
I am booked on at Rockingham on Monday with a group of 2 others and we have booked the whole day someone who while not an instructor as such he races for a living, just to give us all instruction on lines and any specifics you need to know for that circuit.
If nothing else it reduces the time it take before you can get a good time going.
Herman Toothrot said:
I had two lots of tuition on my 1st ever trackday about 8 years ago at Combe and last month I had some more at Abingdon. The initial tuition was great and made a good base to progress from, lines, braking, when to be on throttle etc.
The more recent tuition after the first few laps doing it I realised wasn't really helpful as it just told me what I now need to do but didn't address it at all. i.e. I was told my lines are good, my brakings good etc, nothing to tell you - I had a head shaked and asked if there was anything more specific I wanted to learn as I was fine generally. I thought generally I drive respectable but I'm a bit rubbish on correcting if I get it wrong - so I was basically told I just need to do a car limits style day so I'm better at controlling slides. So that next on the agenda.
You've answered your own question really. You've got to the stage on a trackday where a 20 minute session with an instructor used to giving basic advice to trackday noobies isn't helping you progress. There isn't much an instructor can do in 20 minutes, or even an hour, to progress someone who's driving competently, has learnt the circuit and wants to improve their driving.The more recent tuition after the first few laps doing it I realised wasn't really helpful as it just told me what I now need to do but didn't address it at all. i.e. I was told my lines are good, my brakings good etc, nothing to tell you - I had a head shaked and asked if there was anything more specific I wanted to learn as I was fine generally. I thought generally I drive respectable but I'm a bit rubbish on correcting if I get it wrong - so I was basically told I just need to do a car limits style day so I'm better at controlling slides. So that next on the agenda.
You need a more intensive one-on-one session of at least 1/2 a day but preferably a day, to concentrate on more advanced techniques or explore the limits in a safe environment.
You'd probably learn a lot more by hiring an instructor for a full day every 5th trackday you do than you would by having an hour of instruction on every trackday you attend.
Hope that makes sense!
Ah yes, I know I need to do some days fully dedicated to training now. I will probably go to one of the MSE days where they have a seperate training area off the track - can't remember which airfield that is.
The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
Herman Toothrot said:
Ah yes, I know I need to do some days fully dedicated to training now. I will probably go to one of the MSE days where they have a seperate training area off the track - can't remember which airfield that is.
The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
Well, I would say it's been the case from the very first trackday that the majority don't see a benefit in getting instruction. On MSE days Ed Moore runs a very tight ship which tends to filter out the really bad drivers, but there definitely are some trackday organisers who need to do a better job of enforcing the rules. The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
All it needs is a spate of high profile incidents or maybe someone to get badly hurt or killed and I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of competence test was brought in to bring the standard up.
The thing is, as has been mentioned, swallowing a bit of humble pie and paying for some good instruction will make you much quicker than any bolt-on bits you might want to buy for your car and it's actually going to save you money in the long run because your driving will be smoother and you won't be punishing your tyres and brakes as much.
FasterFreddy said:
Herman Toothrot said:
Ah yes, I know I need to do some days fully dedicated to training now. I will probably go to one of the MSE days where they have a seperate training area off the track - can't remember which airfield that is.
The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
Well, I would say it's been the case from the very first trackday that the majority don't see a benefit in getting instruction. On MSE days Ed Moore runs a very tight ship which tends to filter out the really bad drivers, but there definitely are some trackday organisers who need to do a better job of enforcing the rules. The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
All it needs is a spate of high profile incidents or maybe someone to get badly hurt or killed and I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of competence test was brought in to bring the standard up.
The thing is, as has been mentioned, swallowing a bit of humble pie and paying for some good instruction will make you much quicker than any bolt-on bits you might want to buy for your car and it's actually going to save you money in the long run because your driving will be smoother and you won't be punishing your tyres and brakes as much.
Most of their circuits have separate areas. I'll be at Hullavington this Friday (24th) for some more instruction ;-)
Edited by 21TonyK on Saturday 18th September 17:21
Herman Toothrot said:
Ah yes, I know I need to do some days fully dedicated to training now. I will probably go to one of the MSE days where they have a seperate training area off the track - can't remember which airfield that is.
The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
I've done loads of trackdays and in the beginning had quite a lot of instruction. I'd ended up competent but in reality the car was so good and so fast that I got into soem very bad habits in terms of driving style. A recent change to a slower heavier car saw me take a couple of sessions with Gary Moore at an MSE day at Abingdon who was tutoring a racer in a similar car. He helped change to suit the car and once I've done a few more days I'll be back for some more The post was more an enquiry as to getting an idea of how many people who do trackdays have actually had tuition or just assume their drivings fine. I think I now know the answer - very few by the very minimal number of replies, only people who have had tuition have replied.
Kind of explains why more and more threads are started on here complaining about the standard of driving on trackdays generally.
Elderly said:
Almost every time I do a track day I get tution, whether I think I know the circuit or not.
I almost always get something new out of it.
I do this - take it pretty much any time I can get it - my first time on track was at a "Track Day School" and it was an excellent start - its obvious that a lot of muppets on track are too good in their own minds to need tuition...good instructors can just help you with tiny changes which can make a big difference....and they will soon pick up how advanced you are and instruct to suit your levelI almost always get something new out of it.
I've had a fair bit of tuition and have benefited from it enormously. One to one days or sharing the cost of an instructor for the day with one or two others, has been particularly good. This has given me a good grounding in the basics of track driving.
However, I decided that having too much instruction was making it all get a bit too serious for me. I found I was starting to miss out on parts of the track day experience that I used to enjoy. Particularly, the banter with friends, taking them out as passengers and getting passenger rides in their cars. I was also worried that by trying to get better and faster that I might do something silly that I would regret. I'm not saying this would be caused by the instructor urging me to go faster, it would be me trying to improve myself with the potential of running out of talent. I decided that I wasn't bothered about being up with the fast drivers and have no illusions about becoming a racer.
So now I tend to only get an instruction slot if the track is new to me. That means I get on with having fun, which is the reason for doing it in the first place.
However, I decided that having too much instruction was making it all get a bit too serious for me. I found I was starting to miss out on parts of the track day experience that I used to enjoy. Particularly, the banter with friends, taking them out as passengers and getting passenger rides in their cars. I was also worried that by trying to get better and faster that I might do something silly that I would regret. I'm not saying this would be caused by the instructor urging me to go faster, it would be me trying to improve myself with the potential of running out of talent. I decided that I wasn't bothered about being up with the fast drivers and have no illusions about becoming a racer.
So now I tend to only get an instruction slot if the track is new to me. That means I get on with having fun, which is the reason for doing it in the first place.
I've had a fair amount of tuition and attended several airfield training days that concentrated on some of the more advanced skills (heal & toe, left foot braking, steering the car on the throttle) even before considering going on track. Similarly, I don't think it's that unusual for track day participants to have had tuition.
Nonetheless, I still have a lot that I know but don't always use correctly (or at all!) and even more stuff that I don't know, to learn.
I would imagine a lot of the poor driving that people are seeing is simply down to not knowing the circuit well. It generally takes me a full day to get to learn a new circuit to the point where I can put in reasonable lap times for even an "average" driver.
At that point I still make mistakes (miss braking points etc) due to a lack of concentration.
I wonder if the people on here who seem to consider other participants' driving as poor have experienced a passenger lap with an instructor driving on that particular track? It's generally a very eye-opening experience - even if you think you know the track well and have got the lines down, they'll show you just how much further you can push the car if you really know how to drive it on track.
Nonetheless, I still have a lot that I know but don't always use correctly (or at all!) and even more stuff that I don't know, to learn.
I would imagine a lot of the poor driving that people are seeing is simply down to not knowing the circuit well. It generally takes me a full day to get to learn a new circuit to the point where I can put in reasonable lap times for even an "average" driver.
At that point I still make mistakes (miss braking points etc) due to a lack of concentration.
I wonder if the people on here who seem to consider other participants' driving as poor have experienced a passenger lap with an instructor driving on that particular track? It's generally a very eye-opening experience - even if you think you know the track well and have got the lines down, they'll show you just how much further you can push the car if you really know how to drive it on track.
Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 21st September 11:50
youngsyr said:
I've had a fair amount of tuition and attended several airfield training days that concentrated on some of the more advanced skills (heal & toe, left foot braking, steering the car on the throttle) even before considering going on track. Similarly, I don't think it's that unusual for track day participants to have had tuition.
Nonetheless, I still have a lot that I know but don't always use correctly (or at all!) and even more stuff that I don't know, to learn.
I would imagine a lot of the poor driving that people are seeing is simply down to not knowing the circuit well. It generally takes me a full day to get to learn a new circuit to the point where I can put in reasonable lap times for even an "average" driver.
At that point I still make mistakes (miss braking points etc) due to a lack of concentration.
I wonder if the people on here who seem to consider other participants' driving as poor have experienced a passenger lap with an instructor driving on that particular track? It's generally a very eye-opening experience - even if you think you know the track well and have got the lines down, they'll show you just how much further you can push the car if you really know how to drive it on track.
I doubt you need any tuition with all them driving aids on a Evo8 Nonetheless, I still have a lot that I know but don't always use correctly (or at all!) and even more stuff that I don't know, to learn.
I would imagine a lot of the poor driving that people are seeing is simply down to not knowing the circuit well. It generally takes me a full day to get to learn a new circuit to the point where I can put in reasonable lap times for even an "average" driver.
At that point I still make mistakes (miss braking points etc) due to a lack of concentration.
I wonder if the people on here who seem to consider other participants' driving as poor have experienced a passenger lap with an instructor driving on that particular track? It's generally a very eye-opening experience - even if you think you know the track well and have got the lines down, they'll show you just how much further you can push the car if you really know how to drive it on track.
Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 21st September 11:50
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