Cerbera project car valuation?
Discussion
The post that I am not sure I ever thought I would post... I would like to get a realistic valuation and some recommendations on the Cerb. Mods, can you please leave this open as the car is NOT for sale and nothing certain has been decided - I want to get a rough idea of value/ what to do, nothing more just yet.
The Cerb is at a point now where we either invest a fair chunk of cash into it and get it back to brand new or better - this is an option still as it would be difficult to replace. However, we are now all too big for the rear seats and looking to the future in terms of its current racing useage (Sprints/hillclimbs) something smaller and more agile is tempting... Especially when we look towards further development that I wouldnt feel comfortable doing with the Cerb (LS engine, serious lightening etc etc...) It seems like a different starting point is the most sensible move, however we do love the Cerb.
The other key aspect here is that we would not sell the Cerb to someone who would break it for parts - the money aspect of it may suggest that is the greatest value it presents right now. It is a much loved car that has been a very known Cerb, one that has seen a fair amount of grass routes racing and has represented the marque far too well for such a fate. I dare say for the sake of this heritage alone it needs to be kept as one, kept alive... Ideally, I would like to sleep safe in the knowledge that I could buy it back someday or even just see it at a TVR event in ten years and feel proud. I would'nt mind if it was to be further developed and continued its racing/ perhaps more track work or even ended up a concourse car (? would prefer the former!) It is a special car that deserves to continue as it always has done. Does anyone know how best to make sure of this? If it was to see the previously mentioned fate of being broken, I would rather lay it up for the next 5-10years and come back to it, though this is'nt ideal for practical reasons, it could be done at a push.
So yeah, how is it best to make sure the car goes into safe hands? I have an idea of a couple of people who may make the perfect future owners and will approach them if the decision is made first... we'll see.
I suppose I ought to get to the car; Its a 1997 Cerbera 4.5 - one of the first 4.5's ever. It was crashed into at 900miles old and I believe it is Cat D (though not confirmed, last time we did a check nothing came up, but I do not feel the need to hide this.) There was light fibreglass damage front and rear with photos to prove, - it had a full autolign check/ has never had any issues with this in the past - the reason I am sure of this? Its done 94k miles on the same engine/gearbox etc etc without rebuild! The paintwork is however, extremely scruffy, it has hit a fair few cones, been scratched a fair bit - but lets face it, at this age/ mileage, anyone not expecting a car to need a full respray is dillusional, especially as it has been used properly. The chassis could eventually also use a refresh, though it has recently (within the past two months) had completely new outriggers from the centre chassis out by Raceproved, with extra bracing for the drivers seat mount - so a fair bit of work has been done there already. The engine has always run well, its not the most powerful Cerb out there, but it has certainly done the numbers - its personal best 1/4 at the Brighton Speed Trials is a 12.7 at 116mph!! (certificates to prove.) The car itself has seen most sprints/hillclimbs over the country and has allowed my father to build a very nice amount of trophies.
As it is circa 94k, it could possibly be about right for a rebuild, it gets through a bit of oil currently but always has - the fact that it has done this mileage so easily reflects well on its components/build. We suspect it has some interesting internals (GT engine number) and some of the early development parts we saw on the car, I would'nt be suprised if there is something more to this engine. There are tonnes of other little bits and a history file so comprehensive you'd be astonished - I actually think we have every fill up for the car on record for example! As the car has been used properly, it has been maintained without thought to cost - infact it was one of very very few cars that Joolz personally serviced until his move to RaceProved.
Our next plans for the car (2 years time) was to put some serious dampers/springs on it, full respray, custom exhaust (decat - something we know holds it back currently), rebuild to a very strong 4.5 and freshen up the chassis. This is obviously a pretty significant investiment of time/money, one that undoubtedly would be worth it, but wouldnt necessarily make it any quicker in its sprints/hillclimbs - infact, with fresh paint, we'd probably feel bad risking it... which would actually be a step back. So we're thinking it is maybe better off enjoyed by someone else whilst we develop something else more suitable.
So there we have it, how do you value it? The advantages of it are that it is a known quantity; It is a car with all the right bits (and some more - Quaife Diff may stay with it as an example) - however we are fully aware it would need a fair amount of work/money to get it back to factory fresh, or a tiny amount of work/money to keep it going as it is.
The biggest thing for us isnt the money, it is the need to keep the car as one - I couldnt and would not let this car go to someone who was going to break it. It is too special.
Bloody hell this post was hard and no decisions have been made yet! Any thoughts guys?
The Cerb is at a point now where we either invest a fair chunk of cash into it and get it back to brand new or better - this is an option still as it would be difficult to replace. However, we are now all too big for the rear seats and looking to the future in terms of its current racing useage (Sprints/hillclimbs) something smaller and more agile is tempting... Especially when we look towards further development that I wouldnt feel comfortable doing with the Cerb (LS engine, serious lightening etc etc...) It seems like a different starting point is the most sensible move, however we do love the Cerb.
The other key aspect here is that we would not sell the Cerb to someone who would break it for parts - the money aspect of it may suggest that is the greatest value it presents right now. It is a much loved car that has been a very known Cerb, one that has seen a fair amount of grass routes racing and has represented the marque far too well for such a fate. I dare say for the sake of this heritage alone it needs to be kept as one, kept alive... Ideally, I would like to sleep safe in the knowledge that I could buy it back someday or even just see it at a TVR event in ten years and feel proud. I would'nt mind if it was to be further developed and continued its racing/ perhaps more track work or even ended up a concourse car (? would prefer the former!) It is a special car that deserves to continue as it always has done. Does anyone know how best to make sure of this? If it was to see the previously mentioned fate of being broken, I would rather lay it up for the next 5-10years and come back to it, though this is'nt ideal for practical reasons, it could be done at a push.
So yeah, how is it best to make sure the car goes into safe hands? I have an idea of a couple of people who may make the perfect future owners and will approach them if the decision is made first... we'll see.
I suppose I ought to get to the car; Its a 1997 Cerbera 4.5 - one of the first 4.5's ever. It was crashed into at 900miles old and I believe it is Cat D (though not confirmed, last time we did a check nothing came up, but I do not feel the need to hide this.) There was light fibreglass damage front and rear with photos to prove, - it had a full autolign check/ has never had any issues with this in the past - the reason I am sure of this? Its done 94k miles on the same engine/gearbox etc etc without rebuild! The paintwork is however, extremely scruffy, it has hit a fair few cones, been scratched a fair bit - but lets face it, at this age/ mileage, anyone not expecting a car to need a full respray is dillusional, especially as it has been used properly. The chassis could eventually also use a refresh, though it has recently (within the past two months) had completely new outriggers from the centre chassis out by Raceproved, with extra bracing for the drivers seat mount - so a fair bit of work has been done there already. The engine has always run well, its not the most powerful Cerb out there, but it has certainly done the numbers - its personal best 1/4 at the Brighton Speed Trials is a 12.7 at 116mph!! (certificates to prove.) The car itself has seen most sprints/hillclimbs over the country and has allowed my father to build a very nice amount of trophies.
As it is circa 94k, it could possibly be about right for a rebuild, it gets through a bit of oil currently but always has - the fact that it has done this mileage so easily reflects well on its components/build. We suspect it has some interesting internals (GT engine number) and some of the early development parts we saw on the car, I would'nt be suprised if there is something more to this engine. There are tonnes of other little bits and a history file so comprehensive you'd be astonished - I actually think we have every fill up for the car on record for example! As the car has been used properly, it has been maintained without thought to cost - infact it was one of very very few cars that Joolz personally serviced until his move to RaceProved.Our next plans for the car (2 years time) was to put some serious dampers/springs on it, full respray, custom exhaust (decat - something we know holds it back currently), rebuild to a very strong 4.5 and freshen up the chassis. This is obviously a pretty significant investiment of time/money, one that undoubtedly would be worth it, but wouldnt necessarily make it any quicker in its sprints/hillclimbs - infact, with fresh paint, we'd probably feel bad risking it... which would actually be a step back. So we're thinking it is maybe better off enjoyed by someone else whilst we develop something else more suitable.
So there we have it, how do you value it? The advantages of it are that it is a known quantity; It is a car with all the right bits (and some more - Quaife Diff may stay with it as an example) - however we are fully aware it would need a fair amount of work/money to get it back to factory fresh, or a tiny amount of work/money to keep it going as it is.
The biggest thing for us isnt the money, it is the need to keep the car as one - I couldnt and would not let this car go to someone who was going to break it. It is too special.Bloody hell this post was hard and no decisions have been made yet! Any thoughts guys?
Edited by BCA on Saturday 18th September 01:16
i can see you dilema
i wouldnt sell my car for it to be stripped of its glory but as you say its going to cost for it to be returned to former glory
a new owner would want to buy at at a price to warrent the investment to which a breaker could out bid for the profits to be made
Good luck with an enthusiast that will keep the whole car
i wouldnt sell my car for it to be stripped of its glory but as you say its going to cost for it to be returned to former glory
a new owner would want to buy at at a price to warrent the investment to which a breaker could out bid for the profits to be made
Good luck with an enthusiast that will keep the whole car
If I was you I'd delete your post! It sounds like you have a perfectly 'OK' Cerb, new outriggers, so no chassis worries, well used, sorted, history from speed trials - all good news so far, but mentioning that it needs a lot of work doing to it (in your opinion), and a possible engine rebuild, immediately knocks it's value down by about £4k!!
Why not just advertise it as a perfectly serviceable, well looked after Cerbera, with a price that just reflects the fact that it's a well used but reliable one?
Why not just advertise it as a perfectly serviceable, well looked after Cerbera, with a price that just reflects the fact that it's a well used but reliable one?
JensenA said:
If I was you I'd delete your post! It sounds like you have a perfectly 'OK' Cerb, new outriggers, so no chassis worries, well used, sorted, history from speed trials - all good news so far, but mentioning that it needs a lot of work doing to it (in your opinion), and a possible engine rebuild, immediately knocks it's value down by about £4k!!
Why not just advertise it as a perfectly serviceable, well looked after Cerbera, with a price that just reflects the fact that it's a well used but reliable one?
It is just that, we were planning on running it for another 2 years before any big work*. I would like it to go to someone who knows what they'll have on thier hands in the future and keep it at the top of its game for years to come. Why not just advertise it as a perfectly serviceable, well looked after Cerbera, with a price that just reflects the fact that it's a well used but reliable one?
Perhaps the post puts it in a bad light, it is effectively a scruffy, well used example that'll be fine for a while yet or is the perfect base to thoroughally rebuild from for an almighty Cerb with a very nice history to it in our hands. - but currently have a little cash aside, hence the post now rather than two years... we're at a crossroads, I wish it to stay original (AJP) and enjoyed - but we are wondering about a lighter, smaller alternative starting point for extra development work (LS?/ K20A - who knows, but not on a Cerbera!)
Edited by BCA on Saturday 18th September 00:38
Gazzab said:
In my view the car could easily take 10K to make it very good. Then worth £14K? So take 2/3rd's of the 10K (say 6.5K) and you have a car worth £7.5K? Top of my head. If its worth more to you then advertise for more or keep it (as is).
Seems like a reasonable assumption. The only thing I'd add is that, if you make it really good, surely it's worth more than £14k? Even the newest Cerbs are 7 years old or so now and I really think that condition and specification is more important than year of original build. If an (unrebuilt) '03 is worth £20k I'd say that a rebuilt and mint '98 in the same spec should be worth the same.We're getting into the realms of modern classics with cerbs now I think.
FarmyardPants said:
I would spend £2k on a respray, £200 to refurb the wheels, £70 for a set of car mats, 99p air freshener and advertise it for £11,995.
We have everything there short of a respray already. The car is honestly fine for the moment - may even be freshly serviced/MOT'd when the time comes with a new set of dampers. Ideally, we need a guarantee that it'll be kept going for the next decade easily. Plasticman, whilst we could put it away for a few years, it would be a waste, I would rather like it to be enjoyed for that time. It isnt necessarily about the money for us, especially with this car.
We've had more than enough fun to justify its cost/ outright worth a fair few times over. From the sounds of things, perhaps we should get it resprayed then sell it, the thinking more along the lines of making sure its too nice to be broken, rather than maximising its worth.
Hello to all the PH'ers that spoke to Dad today at Shesley Walsh - sorry I wasnt there, its my B'day and there was a big liverpool match on (didnt work out so well) so I chose to stay at home and go for a spin in dads other toy.
We've got a couple of other options now, including a suggestion of a place to get it sprayed - that said, if we were to have it resprayed the chances of us parting with it are much slimmer... its a tricky one.
Gazzab - I dont doubt you could spend 10k on any other Cerb in the classified to get it perfect, but you could equally spend nothing on ours and still enjoy it for some time yet! Or 2k on a respray and it'd even be very presentable.
As it happens, it was third fastest of all TVR's at todays hillclimb during practice in greasy conditions, so it is very much so an absolute peach of a car still - it lost out later on when it dried out noticeably and the front runners on 1b tyres (R888's etc) got quicker/much more grip, but as I stated earlier, it is still capable of doing the numbers.
Who knows, we may yet keep it.
We've got a couple of other options now, including a suggestion of a place to get it sprayed - that said, if we were to have it resprayed the chances of us parting with it are much slimmer... its a tricky one.
Gazzab - I dont doubt you could spend 10k on any other Cerb in the classified to get it perfect, but you could equally spend nothing on ours and still enjoy it for some time yet! Or 2k on a respray and it'd even be very presentable.
As it happens, it was third fastest of all TVR's at todays hillclimb during practice in greasy conditions, so it is very much so an absolute peach of a car still - it lost out later on when it dried out noticeably and the front runners on 1b tyres (R888's etc) got quicker/much more grip, but as I stated earlier, it is still capable of doing the numbers.
Who knows, we may yet keep it.
BCA said:
Gazzab - I dont doubt you could spend 10k on any other Cerb in the classified to get it perfect, but you could equally spend nothing on ours and still enjoy it for some time yet! Or 2k on a respray and it'd even be very presentable.
Was just going on the vibe of your first post ie scruffy paint, could do with rebuild and chassis neding some attention. Once you pop the engine out then the list lenghens...But I agree that a paint for a couple of K and you get a good looking and useable cerb.
Gazzab said:
BCA said:
Gazzab - I dont doubt you could spend 10k on any other Cerb in the classified to get it perfect, but you could equally spend nothing on ours and still enjoy it for some time yet! Or 2k on a respray and it'd even be very presentable.
Was just going on the vibe of your first post ie scruffy paint, could do with rebuild and chassis neding some attention. Once you pop the engine out then the list lenghens...But I agree that a paint for a couple of K and you get a good looking and useable cerb.
I think I made it sound worse in the first post - its a perfectly useable car as is. It could do with a rebuild as its now at 94k miles (or thereabouts) again, this would be done over the next two years for us as we're able to spend that kind of money on it, rather than a necessity. I believe the likelihood of it going 'pop' is far less than a fair few cerbs with lower miles... usually when an engine goes it either goes early (sub 50k) or goes slowly at much much greater mileage - theres nothing inherantly wrong with it, as anyone who saw it run today will testify!! What is Simon Sparrow on now? 130k miles?? The key thing for us is that we're at a point where we could afford to go all out on the Cerb, but at the same time we're wondering if it is time for a change and go even further with the new car. I wouldnt want to de-AJP a Cerb for example, or start lightening it massively as it'll always be at a disadvantage to a T-car or Exlige or Ultima or whatever in terms of weight due to its size... this is what has prompted the post.
In reality, it is a known, strong, extremely looked after, properly used Cerbera that has done the marque proud and I hope it continues in the same manner. Its just a little scruffy paint wise and if someone else wants to enjoy it for the next decade as we have, we know exactly what it'll need and when (not necessarily any time soon!)
I do love that car.
SimonSparrow said:
BCA said:
What is Simon Sparrow on now? 130k miles??
Had to check as its currently in for a service and getting the Nitrons rebuilt, but its on 141k miles now.Can understand your position, good luck either way!
bloody impressive stuff, I'd like to see how many porsche GT3's even manage that... 
Just spotted a couple of emails, will respond later on to those concerned.
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