Maximum Performance

[chim]

Just a thought and would love to know, there are obviously maximum returns in performance that you can gain from an Engine. Mainly thinking top speed and acceleration, also not including turbo addition. Obviously weight makes a huge difference, but again thinking standard variants of cars in the Engine ranges I have listed below, so Feista/Focus/Mondeo type cars.

This sort of follows on from the thread "stupid things non petrol heads say", where you get a lot of claims from spotty youths about the performance they get from their 1.1 clio "cause its chipped innit"

So for the following engines, what could you realistically expect to get out of them. Top Speed/Acceleration 0-60

1.1 ltr
1.3 ltr
1.6 ltr
1.9 ltr
2.0 ltr

[mitch78]

It depends on the engine.

Compare the 2.0 in a Focus to that in an S2000. Completely different.

Edited by mitch78 on Sunday 19th September 12:24

[RB5]

Even if you knew the power outputs, other factors include car weight, gearing, aerodynamics and much more.

[jon-]

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

[chim]

FI, gives more scope. I know its a hard one to calculate given the variables but even a rough range, not looking for extreme accuracy and would genuinely just like to know the upper limits of these engines.

[PHmember]

Don't forget the 1.5ltr Formula 1 engines.

[chim]

jon- said:

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

I did set some bands, have already stated that I am interested in the figures for the engines in standard production cars not stand alone of a frame and two wheels. So in short, if spotty youth took his 1.1 clio and applied the best mods available (no turbo) what could you get out of the car.

[Condi]

jon- said:

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

There is a 800cc bike engine in a bike which has a theoretical 0-60 of about 2 seconds, but the laws of physics dont allow that so the actual 0-60 is about 2.8 seconds.

[jon-]

chim said:

jon- said:

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

I did set some bands, have already stated that I am interested in the figures for the engines in standard production cars not stand alone of a frame and two wheels. So in short, if spotty youth took his 1.1 clio and applied the best mods available (no turbo) what could you get out of the car.

Would said spotty youth strip out his car? Weight is as important, if not more to 0-60 times? What about tyres? Heated drag radials or ditch finders? What about surface?

I would love to see the empty shell of a 1.1 corsa on drag slicks with someone side stepping the clutch at full rpm.

[adaptive]

jon- said:

chim said:

jon- said:

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

I did set some bands, have already stated that I am interested in the figures for the engines in standard production cars not stand alone of a frame and two wheels. So in short, if spotty youth took his 1.1 clio and applied the best mods available (no turbo) what could you get out of the car.

Would said spotty youth strip out his car? Weight is as important, if not more to 0-60 times? What about tyres? Heated drag radials or ditch finders? What about surface?

I would love to see the empty shell of a 1.1 corsa on drag slicks with someone side stepping the clutch at full rpm.

I dont think he would strip it out, just fold down the back seats

[DrTre]

maybe it's more useful to suggest potential power outputs? eg: above 100bhp/litre is good
Apparently the 458 is the highest NA road car application at ~125bhp/litre..
Bike engines are more powerful still.

Edit; even then, above that is the measurement of BMEP as an indicator of an engine's abilities and there's probably more beyond that...is efficiency/extraction of more power per unit fuel used a measurement of performance (or is that what BMEP is?) etc?

Edited by DrTre on Sunday 19th September 12:51

[chim]

jon- said:

chim said:

jon- said:

I'm pretty sure there's a 1 litre biked engine westfield / dax somewhere that if geared correctly could hit 60 in around 4 seconds.

This thread is largely pointless as there's too many variables

I did set some bands, have already stated that I am interested in the figures for the engines in standard production cars not stand alone of a frame and two wheels. So in short, if spotty youth took his 1.1 clio and applied the best mods available (no turbo) what could you get out of the car.

Would said spotty youth strip out his car? Weight is as important, if not more to 0-60 times? What about tyres? Heated drag radials or ditch finders? What about surface?

I would love to see the empty shell of a 1.1 corsa on drag slicks with someone side stepping the clutch at full rpm.

Ok, some more limits. The car has to retain its original specification, no stripped out shells. Again not looking to the nearest .1 of sec, looking ballpark for manufacturer ranges of cars Feista/Clio Focus/Astra etc etc.

It has been a long time since I have been in these cars, I have seen all sorts of crazy claims but would like to understand what they are actually capable of these days.

[DrTre]

Got you. Dunno, probably add 10mph/knock off half a second on to the figures from 20 years ago.
Although power has gone up, so has weight.

[Ricky_M]

Well another variable to consider is variable valve timing.

For example I have a 2.0 Focus that apparently makes 130BHP without VVT then you have the 2.0 in the Focus ST170 that makes 170BHP there or thereabouts with VVT. Surely the one with VVT would respond to modifications better? Not stating fact, genuinely wondering!

I'm assming all of these N/A engines that make over 100BHP/Litre use some sort of VVT? What is the upper power limit from an N/A engine without VVT?

[glazbagun]

Ricky_M said:

Well another variable to consider is variable valve timing.

For example I have a 2.0 Focus that apparently makes 130BHP without VVT then you have the 2.0 in the Focus ST170 that makes 170BHP there or thereabouts with VVT. Surely the one with VVT would respond to modifications better? Not stating fact, genuinely wondering!

I'm assming all of these N/A engines that make over 100BHP/Litre use some sort of VVT? What is the upper power limit from an N/A engine without VVT?

I'm prepared to be corrected on this, but I'm pretty sure all VVT does is attempt to give a closer optimal valve timing (and thus more power) over various sections of the rev range. So for absoloute peak power, it wouldn't matter. Of course, on reality, such an engine would be a bh to use around town, with all the power at the top end, which is why VVT makes so much sense in road cars. I'm not sure if any non-Honda bike engines use it.

Can't watch video at the moment- does this guy make any mention of VVT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qv1EHqZZaw

Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 19th September 13:50

[nottyash]

I reckon approx 110BHP/ litre, or there abouts.
This is my rule of thumb for a good manafacturer standard engine with no forced induction.

Edited by nottyash on Sunday 19th September 13:54

[nottyash]

PHmember said:

Don't forget the 1.5ltr Formula 1 engines.

They were Turbo

[rhysenna]

DrTre said:

maybe it's more useful to suggest potential power outputs? eg: above 100bhp/litre is good
Apparently the 458 is the highest NA road car application at ~125bhp/litre..
Bike engines are more powerful still.

Edit; even then, above that is the measurement of BMEP as an indicator of an engine's abilities and there's probably more beyond that...is efficiency/extraction of more power per unit fuel used a measurement of performance (or is that what BMEP is?) etc?

Edited by DrTre on Sunday 19th September 12:51

For a certain amount of fuel there is a percentage of that that is turned into power and the rest lost through heat and sound? Is there a theoretical maximum that can be extracted from fuel? Hope that makes sense.

[Dave^]

Using the 2litre Ford/Honda engines...

The Fiesta ST had 150bhp, tuneable (N/A) to around 200...

Whereas the Honda has 200 to start with tuneable to around 240...

I think the only restrictions are money and reliability... Other than that, anything is possible...

[LukeBird]

nottyash said:

PHmember said:

Don't forget the 1.5ltr Formula 1 engines.

They were Turbo

They were also getting on for 1000bhp/litre in qualifying tune, which is mildly impressive even if they are forced induction...