Modern cars vs performance cars of old
Discussion
I was at Goodwood at the weekend, and whilst watching one of the races, I asked my Dad how he thought modern cars would compare to the performance cars from the 40's.
He suggested my Focus ST would comfortably keep pace with the period cars, which I found mildly disappointing!
So I guess the question is this: what is the nearest equivalent to the cars in the various Goodwood races, either in the hands of a professional or just a regular Joe?
He suggested my Focus ST would comfortably keep pace with the period cars, which I found mildly disappointing!
So I guess the question is this: what is the nearest equivalent to the cars in the various Goodwood races, either in the hands of a professional or just a regular Joe?
Top gear did a piec eon old v new racing cars. A Noble was almost identical to an original GT40, a Focus RS quicker then Roger Clark's rally Escort, and the Evo ?? quicker then a Quattro rally car
We are lucky: modern cars really are very good- quick, sure footed, well equiped, safe, comfortable and economical
We are lucky: modern cars really are very good- quick, sure footed, well equiped, safe, comfortable and economical
williamp said:
Top gear did a piec eon old v new racing cars. A Noble was almost identical to an original GT40, a Focus RS quicker then Roger Clark's rally Escort, and the Evo ?? quicker then a Quattro rally car
We are lucky: modern cars really are very good- quick, sure footed, well equiped, safe, comfortable and economical
It was a nice little bit of footageWe are lucky: modern cars really are very good- quick, sure footed, well equiped, safe, comfortable and economical
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4qocLLmijY
I've got "Into the Red" here by Mark Hales and Nick Mason, and they've put some classics against the stopwatch at Silverstone's South Circuit. In order of age:
Bugatti T35B: 0-60 6.0, 0-100 14.8, lap time 1m27.4
ERA B Type: 0-60 4.8, 0-100 11.0, lap time 1m21.8
BRM V16 Mk2: 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.9, lap time n/a (guess what? it broke down!)
Ferrari 250 GTO: 0-60 6.5, 0-100 14.2, lap time 1m20.9s
Ferrari 312T3: 0-60 3.0, 0-100 5.5, lap time 1:01.9
Tyrell 011: 0-60 2.9, 0-100 5.3, lap time 1:02.2
Ferrari F40 (road std spec): 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.8, lap time 1:14.5
BMW E36 M3 (road std spec): 0-60 5.4, 0-100 12.8, lap time 1m21.9
So whilst road cars have moved on, racing cars have always been a long way ahead of contempary road cars; so far ahead in fact that even a racing car 60 years old like the BRM V16 can still hold its own against a modern day supercar.
Bugatti T35B: 0-60 6.0, 0-100 14.8, lap time 1m27.4
ERA B Type: 0-60 4.8, 0-100 11.0, lap time 1m21.8
BRM V16 Mk2: 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.9, lap time n/a (guess what? it broke down!)
Ferrari 250 GTO: 0-60 6.5, 0-100 14.2, lap time 1m20.9s
Ferrari 312T3: 0-60 3.0, 0-100 5.5, lap time 1:01.9
Tyrell 011: 0-60 2.9, 0-100 5.3, lap time 1:02.2
Ferrari F40 (road std spec): 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.8, lap time 1:14.5
BMW E36 M3 (road std spec): 0-60 5.4, 0-100 12.8, lap time 1m21.9
So whilst road cars have moved on, racing cars have always been a long way ahead of contempary road cars; so far ahead in fact that even a racing car 60 years old like the BRM V16 can still hold its own against a modern day supercar.
Shropshiremike said:
Scuffers said:
just to go against the tide, most average modern cars are slower than they were 10-15 years ago.
But faster point to point on bendy roads? Or slower? cars these days are all emission biased, so even if they have the same specific power output, they certainly don't have the same pickup and acceleration as their older versions...
for example, look at the Vauxhall ecotech, it's positively lame compared to earlier versions (the one Cosworth did the head design for).
then look at the focus, and compare it to the escort Cosworth, the ST had a bigger engine, but it's still slower 0-60 (6.5 vs 6.2), lower BHP/litre, heavier, etc etc.
5 USA said:
It's crucial to remember that old cars were fast. Racing cars have topped out around 200 mph for many many years. In some cases pretty much as quick as today's cars. BUT, and it's a big BUT, the tyres were hopeless and the brakes were worse.
yes and no, tyres definitly got much better, untill the last ~5 years or so where eco-tyres have now less grip than their predecessors.ignoring R 17% tyres (as in R888/A048R/V70A etc) tyres like the Michelin Pilot's etc. are dieing out, we now have tyres to save you fuel, and as a consequence, they have less grip.
to some extent the same for brakes, new pads are designed for 50K mile life, not performance, and now just about every cars has ABS, they have started to downgrade the actual brake hardware as they can say ABS will cover it (yes I know).
Cars these days are all about style and eco credentials, sad but true, apart from the odd cars like the new McLaren, and the Ferrari, most mainstream stuff is getting lardier and slower, like just how slow/heavy is the new Mini? and then think how heavy the original 1275 one was....
It's interesting mentioning the "cars getting slower" thing as it draws a parallel and makes me wonder whether the European industry is going through a similar process that the US car industry did when their emission rules started kicking in at the beginning of the '70s.
Point there is that through the mid to late '90s and especially into the 2000s most of Northern Europe had a booming (even if somewhat credit-led) consumer economy. "Everyday" cars became luxurious and, if you went for the performance options, very fast. Remember when the 130bhp of the Strada TC seemed positively audacious?
What we're seeing now with emissions and price pressures is downsizing and de-contenting, with power figures in a lot of cases ending up back where they were twenty years ago. A modern Volvo V70 DRIVE model has about the same headline bhp as a 240 from a couple of decades ago, and there are an awful lot of cars sharing that 1.6 diesel.
What's also interesting is the early '70s in the US saw not just huge drops in performance but car designs, which were already quite "bulky", become dumpy, overwrought and with excessively fussy detailing. I think we're seeing a lot of that now - new generations of models are styled to look lardier and with more heft.
I do wonder sometimes whether we're on the cusp of a European malaise era in mainstream cars. I'm still not certain; I mean the new Mercedes ranges are streets ahead of what went before, what BMW are doing with EfficientDynamics is astonishing and for all I know it's only me as an outlier who dislikes the "porky" styling that's currently in vogue, but then something like the Mini Countryman will be announced and I suddenly have the same feeling I get when comparing a 1969 Dodge Charger to a 1972 one.
(On the note of the original thread, having watched some of the period road tests, the way a classic muscle car does 0-60 in seven seconds is completely different to the way a modern car does it. The muscle car is limited by traction throughout.)
Point there is that through the mid to late '90s and especially into the 2000s most of Northern Europe had a booming (even if somewhat credit-led) consumer economy. "Everyday" cars became luxurious and, if you went for the performance options, very fast. Remember when the 130bhp of the Strada TC seemed positively audacious?
What we're seeing now with emissions and price pressures is downsizing and de-contenting, with power figures in a lot of cases ending up back where they were twenty years ago. A modern Volvo V70 DRIVE model has about the same headline bhp as a 240 from a couple of decades ago, and there are an awful lot of cars sharing that 1.6 diesel.
What's also interesting is the early '70s in the US saw not just huge drops in performance but car designs, which were already quite "bulky", become dumpy, overwrought and with excessively fussy detailing. I think we're seeing a lot of that now - new generations of models are styled to look lardier and with more heft.
I do wonder sometimes whether we're on the cusp of a European malaise era in mainstream cars. I'm still not certain; I mean the new Mercedes ranges are streets ahead of what went before, what BMW are doing with EfficientDynamics is astonishing and for all I know it's only me as an outlier who dislikes the "porky" styling that's currently in vogue, but then something like the Mini Countryman will be announced and I suddenly have the same feeling I get when comparing a 1969 Dodge Charger to a 1972 one.
(On the note of the original thread, having watched some of the period road tests, the way a classic muscle car does 0-60 in seven seconds is completely different to the way a modern car does it. The muscle car is limited by traction throughout.)
Scuffers said:
Shropshiremike said:
Scuffers said:
just to go against the tide, most average modern cars are slower than they were 10-15 years ago.
But faster point to point on bendy roads? Or slower? cars these days are all emission biased, so even if they have the same specific power output, they certainly don't have the same pickup and acceleration as their older versions...
for example, look at the Vauxhall ecotech, it's positively lame compared to earlier versions (the one Cosworth did the head design for).
then look at the focus, and compare it to the escort Cosworth, the ST had a bigger engine, but it's still slower 0-60 (6.5 vs 6.2), lower BHP/litre, heavier, etc etc.
Scuffers said:
most mainstream stuff is getting lardier and slower, like just how slow/heavy is the new Mini? and then think how heavy the original 1275 one was....
Original mini was 850cc. 
Mainstream stuff is plateau'd I would say, with little change in the last ten years. What has happened is that the amount of stuff in a car has gone up massively. I have a 1998 Ford Fiesta in poverty spec bar the CD Player.
It has:
No ABS
No Traction Control
No ESP
One Airbag
Manual Windows
Manual Sunroof (no aircon)
The current poverty spec Fiesta has
ABS
Traction Control
ESP
6 Airbags
Body colour rear spoiler
Body colour bumpers
Rake and reach adjustable steering column
Aircon
Electric windows
Electric Mirrors
And that's all before they made it nearly the same size as a mk1 Focus. No wonder cars have got slower.
Kentish said:
The new car seems much quicker compared to my first ever car, a 1972 Hillman Avenger!
I think in general new cars are much better at staying "in tune" even when they give something away to their predecessors in on-paper performance.About a year ago I went on a rolling road day, most of the newish cars either made dead-on their quoted power figure or significantly exceeded it. (In which case, all examples of that model made about the same power.)
I doubt you'd have seen that from a collection of three to five year old cars in the 1970s, and even if you did it was probably because the owner(s) in question spent all their free weekends under the bonnet keeping everything to spec.
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