Boundary question

[sagt550]

Just been speaking to my next door neighbour who is building an extension and as such has lost his back gate/access to his house. He has now noticed that our fence (apparently) is a foot into his land, as according to him the edge of the drive is the boundary. Unfortuantely I have no way of proving this and am not going to give up my land (if indeed it is mine) to avoid an argument.

Question is, how can I definitively prove where the boundary lies. The houses are only 20 years old so I know the fence has probably been there since new...

Any advice how best to proceeed. I don't want this to develop into a neighbours from hell scenario so just need to get my facts straight and take it from their.

[touching cloth]

Land registry plans might help but are rarely that accurate, however it might show even a small kink out from the line of the driveway it would be enough to determine that it's not a straight line all the way along. Easier route for you may be to claim that regardless of how it may have been once, it's yours now by adverse possession. If you think it has been fenced like that for 20 years or so then that should work as adverse possession I think kicks in after 12, under that law you can now simply assume ownership as you've had sole use. Might rile him more though than being able to prove it never was his.

[Simpo Two]

sagt550 said:

Question is, how can I definitively prove where the boundary lies.

He's the one making the allegation - the burden of proof lies with him.

[Spudler]

Simpo Two said:

sagt550 said:

Question is, how can I definitively prove where the boundary lies.

He's the one making the allegation - the burden of proof lies with him.

Absolutly.

Wouldn't give it another thought untill he's got hard /black & white proof.

[GeraldSmith]

touching cloth said:

Land registry plans might help but are rarely that accurate, however it might show even a small kink out from the line of the driveway it would be enough to determine that it's not a straight line all the way along. Easier route for you may be to claim that regardless of how it may have been once, it's yours now by adverse possession. If you think it has been fenced like that for 20 years or so then that should work as adverse possession I think kicks in after 12, under that law you can now simply assume ownership as you've had sole use. Might rile him more though than being able to prove it never was his.

Unfortunately it no longer works that way, no matter how long you have occupied it the land will revert ton the original owner if they want it. The issue here is more one of him proving that the fence is in the wrong place.

[touching cloth]

GeraldSmith said:

touching cloth said:

Land registry plans might help but are rarely that accurate, however it might show even a small kink out from the line of the driveway it would be enough to determine that it's not a straight line all the way along. Easier route for you may be to claim that regardless of how it may have been once, it's yours now by adverse possession. If you think it has been fenced like that for 20 years or so then that should work as adverse possession I think kicks in after 12, under that law you can now simply assume ownership as you've had sole use. Might rile him more though than being able to prove it never was his.

Unfortunately it no longer works that way, no matter how long you have occupied it the land will revert ton the original owner if they want it. The issue here is more one of him proving that the fence is in the wrong place.

Ah ok, never had any direct experience of using it i must say - only brief encounter came when we were looking at a house where the owners had adopted a bit wasted corner of a farmers field, estate agent was keen to suggest it as possible to do this as they had been using it for years. That was only last year so assumed still in place.... maybe a touch optimistic putting trust in the current knowledge of your average estate agent however

[mk1fan]

As has already been said it is down to your neighbour to show that the fence is in the wrong place. Afterall, you can't defend your position until you know what they are claiming and the proof they have.

Your deeds will have information about where the boundaries to your property are. This will be your first port of call - once you've received you neighbour's info.

If it were me I'd ask the neighbour to give me his proof so that I can consider it. They maybe correct. Then again they may not be.

[Jasandjules]

sagt550 said:

Question is, how can I definitively prove where the boundary lies. The houses are only 20 years old so I know the fence has probably been there since new...

You don't have to prove anything. He does. He is the one saying it's in the wrong place, so ask him what evidence he has to base that upon. Then come back to us - and for the avoidance of doubt, he won't have anything - because the Land Registry Deeds are not that accurate................

[GeraldSmith]

touching cloth said:

Ah ok, never had any direct experience of using it i must say - only brief encounter came when we were looking at a house where the owners had adopted a bit wasted corner of a farmers field, estate agent was keen to suggest it as possible to do this as they had been using it for years. That was only last year so assumed still in place.... maybe a touch optimistic putting trust in the current knowledge of your average estate agent however

The law changed in 2002 such that for registered land you could apply after 10 years occupation of the land but if the registered owner objects your application will be refused (bar a few unlikely exceptions). But even that doesn't apply if the occupation was accidental as in a misplaced fence, you have to show intent to occupy for that period.

So, big surprise, your estate agent was talking bks (ETA although intent may have been possible in your case, but not this)

Edited by GeraldSmith on Sunday 26th September 19:37

[steve2]

how long have you lived in the house and have you any photos that you may have taken over the years?

[sagt550]

I've been in the house 4 years now and and I probably do have a few photos kicking around including the ones I took today.

Please be aware this has not reached a falling out stage yet and all I have had with him is a very polite conversation suggesting that he would like to do it and with me saying that it would depend on the boundaries which I believe is the fence which he has accepted. Out of courtesy I said I would have a quick look at the plans for the avoidance of doubt which I knew I had upstairs. As you have all stated the burden of proof lies with him (agreed) and that the plans aren't usually detailed enough which I discovered when I went back to them.

I'm a great believer is always being armed with the facts so although my official line is that the fence is the boundary and I have nothing to prove, I just wondered if there was an (easy) way of verifying this.

[slow_poke]

Look at your fence - that's your boundry, right there.

If it starts getting more complicated than that, have a word with the folks over on www.gardenlaw.co.uk

[JustinP1]

sagt550 said:

I've been in the house 4 years now and and I probably do have a few photos kicking around including the ones I took today.

Please be aware this has not reached a falling out stage yet and all I have had with him is a very polite conversation suggesting that he would like to do it and with me saying that it would depend on the boundaries which I believe is the fence which he has accepted. Out of courtesy I said I would have a quick look at the plans for the avoidance of doubt which I knew I had upstairs. As you have all stated the burden of proof lies with him (agreed) and that the plans aren't usually detailed enough which I discovered when I went back to them.

I'm a great believer is always being armed with the facts so although my official line is that the fence is the boundary and I have nothing to prove, I just wondered if there was an (easy) way of verifying this.

I would suggest to him that you, or the previous owners of your house would not have been allowed to put a fence on his property. That would be silly.

I would also suggest to him that the fence is on the boundary.

Unless... he has some clear written unequivocal evidence to the contrary. No hearsay.

Simply tell him that you have taken advice and the fence is the boundary. However, should he have some written evidence otherwise then you are more than happy to sit down and discuss the situation sensibly.

My guess is that he did not have the foresight for the access situation. Following that he has put together a 'white lie' which you will have difficulty categorically making him look like an outright liar about, but he thinks may be an easy way to get what he wants.

[sagt550]

Slowpoke - I think you're right here. Never had to think about this before, but I'm probably over analysing it.

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll let you know if it "develops".

[Simpo Two]

JustinP1 said:

My guess is that he did not have the foresight for the access situation. Following that he has put together a 'white lie' which you will have difficulty categorically making him look like an outright liar about, but he thinks may be an easy way to get what he wants.

It is always fascinating to dismantle a 'position' that doesn't quite make sense, until eventually the real (and simple) motives appear

[monthefish]

As has been said, the ball is in his court, but that doesn't stop you from doing a bit of research if it is bothering you; I suggest you contact Land Registry and obtain a copy of the titles for yours & his properties (just for your own info). Should only cost a couple of quid, and might be enough to put the matter to bed. (you can then produce this at a later date if/when neighbour makes a formal challenge).

[sagt550]

Well... to keep everyone updated. I spoke with a number of people including the land registry who suggested that the fence is the boundary.

As is the general jist of this thread (which I agree with), the burden of proof does not lie with me anyway but it is nice to know that now that evidence needs to be produced on his behalf for the status quo to change.

He's a really nice guy my neighbour and he took the update of my findings well. Hopefully it will just end here or maybe a negotiation could be suggested if he wants to proceed.

[Simpo Two]

sagt550 said:

He's a really nice guy my neighbour and he took the update of my findings well. Hopefully it will just end here or maybe a negotiation could be suggested if he wants to proceed.

I don't see why any negotiation is required - unless you want to give him some of your land as a present...?

If he 'proceeds' and finds proof that he owns the land, then is the time to negotiate

[JohnRS4]

Assumme he means he may want to negotiate to buy some land to porovide access.

Simpo Two said:

sagt550 said:

He's a really nice guy my neighbour and he took the update of my findings well. Hopefully it will just end here or maybe a negotiation could be suggested if he wants to proceed.

I don't see why any negotiation is required - unless you want to give him some of your land as a present...?

If he 'proceeds' and finds proof that he owns the land, then is the time to negotiate

[Simpo Two]

Ah, THAT kind of negotiation!