s b c doom and gloom,
Discussion
Hi all been scratching my head a bit latley ( no splinters err or fleas 
) and i dont get it ? over the years iv had quite a few chums that are well into custom/ hot rod / drag racing all them either using small block ford or chevy ( yes there s a good deal of rivalry banter over which is best )but what ever engine is being used up the quater or cained around the streets you very rarely here of a major failure , or more to the point of a chevy detonating its self , now over the last few months there s been a good few noticble s b c mishaps on this forum , now iv always been led to belive that yank iron is pretty bullit proof standard, tuned or otherwise , so has any one got any ideas / theories, has A S got a couple of dodgy trainees in ?????, or is it the engines are being reved harder as we use manual boxes ????? or is it there are loads of s b c being given death in ultima s and standing up to it time after time, and its only a small percentage that are standing out, I only ask this as mine is an A S lump thats covered just undre 2000 mile , top oil pressure , oil stays golden , uses no oil , stays well cool , is running spot on after rolling road , but am I sitting on a time bomb ?????? concerned of Orpington 
) and i dont get it ? over the years iv had quite a few chums that are well into custom/ hot rod / drag racing all them either using small block ford or chevy ( yes there s a good deal of rivalry banter over which is best )but what ever engine is being used up the quater or cained around the streets you very rarely here of a major failure , or more to the point of a chevy detonating its self , now over the last few months there s been a good few noticble s b c mishaps on this forum , now iv always been led to belive that yank iron is pretty bullit proof standard, tuned or otherwise , so has any one got any ideas / theories, has A S got a couple of dodgy trainees in ?????, or is it the engines are being reved harder as we use manual boxes ????? or is it there are loads of s b c being given death in ultima s and standing up to it time after time, and its only a small percentage that are standing out, I only ask this as mine is an A S lump thats covered just undre 2000 mile , top oil pressure , oil stays golden , uses no oil , stays well cool , is running spot on after rolling road , but am I sitting on a time bomb ?????? concerned of Orpington Gulf LS3 said:
It always seems to be the valve train that gives in first....
Ive been told by a 2 specialist SBC engine builders that the top end should be refreshed every few thousand miles and even sooner on mega tuned engines.
I dont believe it !!!!........Victor.Ive been told by a 2 specialist SBC engine builders that the top end should be refreshed every few thousand miles and even sooner on mega tuned engines.
On the SBC's you can run a middle of the road bottom end, but as Oily ^ says your spare cash and time should be spent on the valve gear and top end.
Have said before and still maintain these are not drag motors which most of the US engine market build for. A-S do seem to use better quality top end components, the budget-builders dont..... but if you want a fairly reliable track monster there is considerably more to be done and more appropriate components for the job.
Its all relative to cash, as with most things.
Edited by 738 driver on Thursday 30th September 08:43
im doing my 1st sprint on sunday in it 
Dal, I take it you were 'of drink' when you posted last night? 
Anyhow I have some thoughts.
Yes there have been a few reported failures lately. Not uncommon in Marque specific forums (BMW - Vanos! Porsche - Crank Seals & Shafts)
If you look at each case, except maybe Phil's (PB3) there are some obvious clues to explain the problems.
Guys engine had been used and enjoyed for many, many miles and I know even he was not suprised by the demise.
Mark it would seem has suffered an unexpected component failure that even AS would have struggled to spot at assembly time.
Steve_D has over 17k on his home built SBC (500+bhp). I sold my car with 7.5k on it and I too built mine (450 bhp.) s
thotfast has done many miles without any issues and I know his car gets thoroughly enjoyed at every oppotunity! Nick M. has probably done more miles than any other with regular trips to Europe and yes he had a Dizzy shaft fail that meant some open heart surgery was required. He was trying to match a Zonda at the time though. 
And there are of course others with decent miles and no problems so is it Doom & Gloom? I don't think so myself.
Yes, if I was asked by a new builder which engine to choose I would reccommend LS if their budget would stretch that far. That is called progress.
Anyhow I have some thoughts.
Yes there have been a few reported failures lately. Not uncommon in Marque specific forums (BMW - Vanos! Porsche - Crank Seals & Shafts)
If you look at each case, except maybe Phil's (PB3) there are some obvious clues to explain the problems.
Guys engine had been used and enjoyed for many, many miles and I know even he was not suprised by the demise.
Mark it would seem has suffered an unexpected component failure that even AS would have struggled to spot at assembly time.
Steve_D has over 17k on his home built SBC (500+bhp). I sold my car with 7.5k on it and I too built mine (450 bhp.) s
thotfast has done many miles without any issues and I know his car gets thoroughly enjoyed at every oppotunity! Nick M. has probably done more miles than any other with regular trips to Europe and yes he had a Dizzy shaft fail that meant some open heart surgery was required. He was trying to match a Zonda at the time though. And there are of course others with decent miles and no problems so is it Doom & Gloom? I don't think so myself.
Yes, if I was asked by a new builder which engine to choose I would reccommend LS if their budget would stretch that far. That is called progress.
Gulf LS3 said:
hold on a min....
a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I have not done a full set of costs for both options but is that correct once you have taken all the other components into account?a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I'm thinking Adapter Plate, Exhaust, ECU, Fuel & Oil Systems etc? Obviously with a new build the LS option becomes far more attractive. But, if you already have SBC you will need to make big changes in the engine bay? Yes?
Genuinely curious.
Captain Slog said:
I think there's a record breaking Gentleman near Chicago that would be proud to tell you about his TT LS2 motor and how many miles he has on the clock
Indeed there is. But this is about the reported reliability issues of the SBC. No one is saying there are issues with the LS.David Vizard's latest book (2007/8 ish) claims good power and reliability for SBCs, he spends a lot of time thrashing them on Dynos!
However, I guess there are two main differences between Ultima installations of SBCs and the rest of the USA.
1.) ours are in the back of the car, and dont have a dirty big radiator fan in front of them. is there an external cooling issue that we dont know about?
2.) our exhaust manifolds (headers) go up above the block rather than down. Does this have some unknown heating effect on the top end too?
Matt
However, I guess there are two main differences between Ultima installations of SBCs and the rest of the USA.
1.) ours are in the back of the car, and dont have a dirty big radiator fan in front of them. is there an external cooling issue that we dont know about?
2.) our exhaust manifolds (headers) go up above the block rather than down. Does this have some unknown heating effect on the top end too?
Matt
Paul.B said:
Gulf LS3 said:
hold on a min....
a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I have not done a full set of costs for both options but is that correct once you have taken all the other components into account?a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I'm thinking Adapter Plate, Exhaust, ECU, Fuel & Oil Systems etc? Obviously with a new build the LS option becomes far more attractive. But, if you already have SBC you will need to make big changes in the engine bay? Yes?
Genuinely curious.
Yes if you have a SBC the cheapest option is to replace it with another.
You could definately fit a LS for the same money or cheaper on a new build.
The biggest cost that ive seen is the fuel system with these bloody twin tanks, as im sure you and Steve have seen the fuel line and fittings are very expensive!! Yes you would need an EFI pump, swirl pot, headers(you could use the standard LS headers as Graham P) adaptor, flywheel and engine(LS) mods. As far as im concerned its a no brainer with the improved
economy
road manners
lack of oil leaks
performance
longevity
fly by wire throttle
etc etc
Gulf LS3 said:
Paul.B said:
Gulf LS3 said:
hold on a min....
a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I have not done a full set of costs for both options but is that correct once you have taken all the other components into account?a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I'm thinking Adapter Plate, Exhaust, ECU, Fuel & Oil Systems etc? Obviously with a new build the LS option becomes far more attractive. But, if you already have SBC you will need to make big changes in the engine bay? Yes?
Genuinely curious.
Yes if you have a SBC the cheapest option is to replace it with another.
You could definately fit a LS for the same money or cheaper on a new build.
The biggest cost that ive seen is the fuel system with these bloody twin tanks, as im sure you and Steve have seen the fuel line and fittings are very expensive!! Yes you would need an EFI pump, swirl pot, headers(you could use the standard LS headers as Graham P) adaptor, flywheel and engine(LS) mods. As far as im concerned its a no brainer with the improved
economy
road manners
lack of oil leaks
performance
longevity
fly by wire throttle
etc etc
road manners I might agree too
lack of oil leaks I question as an engine is only as good as its put together and mine hasnt an oil leak!!
performance they are simular,
longevity has yet to be proved,
fly by wire i personally dont like.
i agree in 5 years most of us will be with an LS but maybe for different reasons and I still feel I will go the twin turbo route or diesel twin turbo if i replace my engine...... now
they are better in
economy
road manners(loads of grunt)
lack of oil leaks just out of the exhaust
performance most diesels are faster than same petrol nowadays
longevity last for ever as they dont rev
fly by wire throttle who cares
etc etc and with noise regs as they are at track days.................you have to admit they are quieter too.
how long before we have 90 db max track days and non of the LS engines can run without turbo mod or choking it to death??
Dom
V8Dom said:
Gulf LS3 said:
Paul.B said:
Gulf LS3 said:
hold on a min....
a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I have not done a full set of costs for both options but is that correct once you have taken all the other components into account?a 500 bhp LS is cheaper than a 500bhp SBC, with no comparison performance wise.
It doesnt have to be a LS7 in the back of an Ultima, 2's, 3's and 6's are all fab motors.
I'm thinking Adapter Plate, Exhaust, ECU, Fuel & Oil Systems etc? Obviously with a new build the LS option becomes far more attractive. But, if you already have SBC you will need to make big changes in the engine bay? Yes?
Genuinely curious.
Yes if you have a SBC the cheapest option is to replace it with another.
You could definately fit a LS for the same money or cheaper on a new build.
The biggest cost that ive seen is the fuel system with these bloody twin tanks, as im sure you and Steve have seen the fuel line and fittings are very expensive!! Yes you would need an EFI pump, swirl pot, headers(you could use the standard LS headers as Graham P) adaptor, flywheel and engine(LS) mods. As far as im concerned its a no brainer with the improved
economy
road manners
lack of oil leaks
performance
longevity
fly by wire throttle
etc etc
road manners I might agree too
lack of oil leaks I question as an engine is only as good as its put together and mine hasnt an oil leak!!
performance they are simular,
longevity has yet to be proved,
fly by wire i personally dont like.
i agree in 5 years most of us will be with an LS but maybe for different reasons and I still feel I will go the twin turbo route or diesel twin turbo if i replace my engine...... now
they are better in
economy
road manners(loads of grunt)
lack of oil leaks just out of the exhaust
performance most diesels are faster than same petrol nowadays
longevity last for ever as they dont rev
fly by wire throttle who cares
etc etc and with noise regs as they are at track days.................you have to admit they are quieter too.
how long before we have 90 db max track days and non of the LS engines can run without turbo mod or choking it to death??
Dom
you will never get 27-30 mpg out of a SBC, if you drive both hard the LS will always be more ecomomical
the road manners are in adifferent league, you have obviously not driven a LS powered Ultima, can your car cruise through town in top gear at 35mph??
you are also wrong on the oil leaks as a LS has proper bonded seals and does not rely on gunked up cork/rubber gaskets
again, the performance is not similiar, put a 480bhp SBC up against a 480bhp LS and there will only be one winner. please remember ive had two SBC's both with 540bhp+ and they do not compare with even a standard LS3.
longevity is proven ive been offered 100,000 mile LS2's from the States how many 400bhp SBC's can do that..... none
have you tried the LS fly by wire..... it gives awesome throttle response, it doesnt cough and splutter before it responds it just goes.
Your 1 3/4 inch headers do a great job of strangling the performance of your sbc but i agree a twin turbo would be a nice mod but the heat issues bother me, a diesel Ultima would be interesting but all that smoke and clatter....
Ive not been fortunate enough to drive an Ultima but from a passengers point of view the LS has got to be the one!
Ive been in a 500+ sbc ultima and decided that when its my time to build i need more power but then went in a standard LS3 powered Ultima with a map (480) and couldn't believe the difference in power.
I do like big lumpy cams but being in a SBC Ultima round town is quite embarrassing as the car does nothing but kangaroo... and it looks stupid in a £50000 super car. an LS powered ultima however is like being in a normal car with no coughing and spluttering.
My view of this SBC v LS situation is if you have a small block your obviously going to side with it but for those who have the LS can only say how good it is as others just dont know.
Ive been in a 500+ sbc ultima and decided that when its my time to build i need more power but then went in a standard LS3 powered Ultima with a map (480) and couldn't believe the difference in power.
I do like big lumpy cams but being in a SBC Ultima round town is quite embarrassing as the car does nothing but kangaroo... and it looks stupid in a £50000 super car. an LS powered ultima however is like being in a normal car with no coughing and spluttering.
My view of this SBC v LS situation is if you have a small block your obviously going to side with it but for those who have the LS can only say how good it is as others just dont know.
[quote=Gulf LS3
haha Kyle , you forgot ive been in Simons GTR before he sold it..and you will always be biased as you fit LS engines to Ultimas for a living which I wont take away from you but it cant all be a one way street and I will fight for my SBC while I still have it as this is a discussion:
yes the LS might be nice and smooth and reponsive,but thats not all because of fly by wire. its because its multi point injection.If you fitted the inlet manifold to a SBC and a simular cam it would behave the same way.. its the same as a nitros cheater plate is less effective than individual injectors direct in the ports..more power, smoother delivery....
The FBW is more acurate but you loose the feel....I much prefewr the cars fitted with FBW at the engine rather than at the right foot...that way you still have the feel under your foot, a cable and spring loaded throttle plate... The throttle position is then measured at teh engine...Of coarse if the throttle position sensor is inside and your ecu's inside you save on wiring, and space and looks.
i wont get 27-30 mpg but i get 22-23 on a cruise on the motorway on mine(ok single figures on a thrash up to the Cat and fiddle) but how many gallons of shell optimax can you buy for the 10k swap of engines, and I dont use mine everyday, but one or twice a fortnight, so I will never do 100k miles.
The road manners in town maybe!!, but I would never load a motor so its doing 1300rpm in top gear as I feel that would strain it.( I have high ratio box so mine would be lower). but saying that I bought the car as a race type supercar and would be bored by lambo/ frazer maners anyway..which is why i would not fit traction or ABS.. I won 3 british championships riding my basic no-electronic dragbike when everone said I was mad and they had MSD, stutterboxes,lauch control,programed gearchanges(or autoboxes) and locker clutches as I like raw basics... throttle and clutch and 2 hands......
You are right about my 1 3/4 inch headers though , they do strangle the engine but not for the reason you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....They have not been blueprinter to the motor and are 5mm smaller than the head ports....whooops someone cocked up there...big step down where it matters, which Im modifying this winter..when the gas goes on...
So I will stick for now to my no oil leaking chevy engine which doesnt leak as it wasnt fitted with cork gaskets but rubber re-usable type ones as I have to adjust my valve lash every 1000 miles...bet you cant do that with an LS.hahahahahhaha
There is a way arround the heat problem with TT and the disel route is an option I might well be taking if my engine expires and it wont rattle, but might smoke a lot...., but wow 40-50 mph on a cruise to Le Mans and I like being different, hence my idea to you of 4 silencers side by side(one per 2 cylinders) to quieten the engines down.
Sorry I have to stand up for SBC while I can.....And yes i will admit in public Ive spoken to Kyle about changing my engine to an LS engine..heehhehe but due to costs I cant and want to be different...
Dom
[/quote]
haha Kyle , you forgot ive been in Simons GTR before he sold it..and you will always be biased as you fit LS engines to Ultimas for a living which I wont take away from you but it cant all be a one way street and I will fight for my SBC while I still have it as this is a discussion:
yes the LS might be nice and smooth and reponsive,but thats not all because of fly by wire. its because its multi point injection.If you fitted the inlet manifold to a SBC and a simular cam it would behave the same way.. its the same as a nitros cheater plate is less effective than individual injectors direct in the ports..more power, smoother delivery....
The FBW is more acurate but you loose the feel....I much prefewr the cars fitted with FBW at the engine rather than at the right foot...that way you still have the feel under your foot, a cable and spring loaded throttle plate... The throttle position is then measured at teh engine...Of coarse if the throttle position sensor is inside and your ecu's inside you save on wiring, and space and looks.
i wont get 27-30 mpg but i get 22-23 on a cruise on the motorway on mine(ok single figures on a thrash up to the Cat and fiddle) but how many gallons of shell optimax can you buy for the 10k swap of engines, and I dont use mine everyday, but one or twice a fortnight, so I will never do 100k miles.
The road manners in town maybe!!, but I would never load a motor so its doing 1300rpm in top gear as I feel that would strain it.( I have high ratio box so mine would be lower). but saying that I bought the car as a race type supercar and would be bored by lambo/ frazer maners anyway..which is why i would not fit traction or ABS.. I won 3 british championships riding my basic no-electronic dragbike when everone said I was mad and they had MSD, stutterboxes,lauch control,programed gearchanges(or autoboxes) and locker clutches as I like raw basics... throttle and clutch and 2 hands......
You are right about my 1 3/4 inch headers though , they do strangle the engine but not for the reason you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....They have not been blueprinter to the motor and are 5mm smaller than the head ports....whooops someone cocked up there...big step down where it matters, which Im modifying this winter..when the gas goes on...
So I will stick for now to my no oil leaking chevy engine which doesnt leak as it wasnt fitted with cork gaskets but rubber re-usable type ones as I have to adjust my valve lash every 1000 miles...bet you cant do that with an LS.hahahahahhaha
There is a way arround the heat problem with TT and the disel route is an option I might well be taking if my engine expires and it wont rattle, but might smoke a lot...., but wow 40-50 mph on a cruise to Le Mans and I like being different, hence my idea to you of 4 silencers side by side(one per 2 cylinders) to quieten the engines down.
Sorry I have to stand up for SBC while I can.....And yes i will admit in public Ive spoken to Kyle about changing my engine to an LS engine..heehhehe but due to costs I cant and want to be different...
Dom
[/quote]
Edited by V8Dom on Sunday 3rd October 00:43
the AS SBC in my old canam was still going strong last time I heard... and that had done plenty of drag runs and high speed.
I did strip the engine after a few thousand miles and carefully rebuilt it and IMHO you need to refresh the head every 10k miles, I found that my AS heads were more assembled than blueprinted and they definatelly benefited from spending a little time here.
I suspect this is exactly what the difference is as Hot rodders tend to tinker with their engines were as the Ultima boys tend to leave the engine alone and tinker with the car.
No doubt at all that the LS's are a significantly better engine but a SBC has absolutelly no reason to fail after a few thousand miles.
I did strip the engine after a few thousand miles and carefully rebuilt it and IMHO you need to refresh the head every 10k miles, I found that my AS heads were more assembled than blueprinted and they definatelly benefited from spending a little time here.
I suspect this is exactly what the difference is as Hot rodders tend to tinker with their engines were as the Ultima boys tend to leave the engine alone and tinker with the car.
No doubt at all that the LS's are a significantly better engine but a SBC has absolutelly no reason to fail after a few thousand miles.
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