Curious - but why no small fast cars.....
Discussion
ok, sweeping statement. But what I mean is this.
If on a budget, or just because you want to, you could buy an old Corsa B, Metro or Civic and either upgrade the engine or swap in a VTEC, VVC or Red Top (turbo) and have a 190-280hp small nimble lightweight every day practical car.
It might not be the fastest, but I think most would agree that a Rover 100 with a 160hp VVC engine and a few suspension tweaks is actually a pretty rapid point A to B car.
But with new cars this seems to be lacking IMO. If you want fast and rather more importantly FUN it seems that you have to massively increase in price but also size.
The only hot hatch Ford produce is the ST/RS, but they are frigging HUGE for a hatch. Almost the same size as a Land Rover Freelander!!!
What started me on this train of thought was this:
Someone local to me must have one as I've seen it a number of times. It's not really my sort of car, but not knowing much about it I did a bit of research. So for those that also don't know, it's a Toyota IQ.
But here's my point - ignore your preconceptions for a moment. And look at what this car offers.
-A wheel at each corner, more so than the original Mini. So very short over hangs and good polar inertia.
-A wide track, so stable and gippy (although maybe snappy on the limit). But still a good attribute for making a car nimble.
-Good driving position and view out. So good for placing the car on the road well and just enhancing what you may want if B road bashing.
-Low curb weight 930kg. That's less than some Elise/Exige variants
-6 speed manual gearbox
And if I'm honest I actually don't mind the way it looks
So how funky would this be if Toyota also offer this car at sensible money with a 200hp engine?
It would be a great little fun car to throw about, yet still practical and affordable. Good on MPG and still carry great green credentials.
I just find it odd, that in this day and age of wanting to reduce Co2's and the like, that auto makers don't embrace lightweight focused performance cars?? Isn't this a way to win over the enthusiasts?
I know that there are some small cars, Fiat 500 Abarth even the MINI CS. But the MINI is silly money and almost half a class bigger/heavier. The Abarth is produced in such limmited numbers that its not really worth counting it.
But look at other car makers. Why is it that their lightest and most nimble models are not usually the ones targeted for producing performance cars. Are car makers missing a trick??
I think so.
e.g.
Ford make 4 hatches - KA, Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo. Yet the KA gets no real go faster treatment. And as good as the ST is, there is no denying it likes a drink and simply isn't small.
Mazda are no better. They have a lovely small sports car. But it's the Mazda 6 MPS that truly got all the go faster bits. Even the comparitivley large RX-8 was left in the dark with no further go faster bits.
Vauxhall might have been a bit better with the Corsa, but again its the Astra/Vectra and Signum that get the most go faster bits.
Renault may have the Clio, but it was the larger, heavier Megane that they hotted up R26 and R26r.
Why have smart never thought to make a proper performance production car out of the ForTwo? Despite its obvious short comings it has all the makings of a modern day Mini but with RWD. Sort out the gearbox, sharpen it up a bit and give it 200bhp/ton for sensible money. Would you truly still want to buy a 197hp Golf GTI as a "hot fast every day car for 2?"
discuss/
If on a budget, or just because you want to, you could buy an old Corsa B, Metro or Civic and either upgrade the engine or swap in a VTEC, VVC or Red Top (turbo) and have a 190-280hp small nimble lightweight every day practical car.
It might not be the fastest, but I think most would agree that a Rover 100 with a 160hp VVC engine and a few suspension tweaks is actually a pretty rapid point A to B car.
But with new cars this seems to be lacking IMO. If you want fast and rather more importantly FUN it seems that you have to massively increase in price but also size.
The only hot hatch Ford produce is the ST/RS, but they are frigging HUGE for a hatch. Almost the same size as a Land Rover Freelander!!!
What started me on this train of thought was this:
Someone local to me must have one as I've seen it a number of times. It's not really my sort of car, but not knowing much about it I did a bit of research. So for those that also don't know, it's a Toyota IQ.
But here's my point - ignore your preconceptions for a moment. And look at what this car offers.
-A wheel at each corner, more so than the original Mini. So very short over hangs and good polar inertia.
-A wide track, so stable and gippy (although maybe snappy on the limit). But still a good attribute for making a car nimble.
-Good driving position and view out. So good for placing the car on the road well and just enhancing what you may want if B road bashing.
-Low curb weight 930kg. That's less than some Elise/Exige variants
-6 speed manual gearbox
And if I'm honest I actually don't mind the way it looks
So how funky would this be if Toyota also offer this car at sensible money with a 200hp engine?
It would be a great little fun car to throw about, yet still practical and affordable. Good on MPG and still carry great green credentials.
I just find it odd, that in this day and age of wanting to reduce Co2's and the like, that auto makers don't embrace lightweight focused performance cars?? Isn't this a way to win over the enthusiasts?
I know that there are some small cars, Fiat 500 Abarth even the MINI CS. But the MINI is silly money and almost half a class bigger/heavier. The Abarth is produced in such limmited numbers that its not really worth counting it.
But look at other car makers. Why is it that their lightest and most nimble models are not usually the ones targeted for producing performance cars. Are car makers missing a trick??
I think so.e.g.
Ford make 4 hatches - KA, Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo. Yet the KA gets no real go faster treatment. And as good as the ST is, there is no denying it likes a drink and simply isn't small.
Mazda are no better. They have a lovely small sports car. But it's the Mazda 6 MPS that truly got all the go faster bits. Even the comparitivley large RX-8 was left in the dark with no further go faster bits.
Vauxhall might have been a bit better with the Corsa, but again its the Astra/Vectra and Signum that get the most go faster bits.
Renault may have the Clio, but it was the larger, heavier Megane that they hotted up R26 and R26r.
Why have smart never thought to make a proper performance production car out of the ForTwo? Despite its obvious short comings it has all the makings of a modern day Mini but with RWD. Sort out the gearbox, sharpen it up a bit and give it 200bhp/ton for sensible money. Would you truly still want to buy a 197hp Golf GTI as a "hot fast every day car for 2?"
discuss/
There are generally issues around actually getting a sufficiently powerful engine to fit. Even if it does fit, it needs to be serviceable - nobody wants to pay huge labour bills because even the simplest jobs require the engine to be removed.
Having said that, I would imagine the main reason you don't see such cars is that manufacturers don't see it as good business sense to offer a small cheap car that's quicker than their more expensive performance models.
Having said that, I would imagine the main reason you don't see such cars is that manufacturers don't see it as good business sense to offer a small cheap car that's quicker than their more expensive performance models.
Edited by Risotto on Friday 1st October 11:41
Factory-fit powerful light small cars - not much market for them IMO due to maintenance, insurance, mpg and CO2 costs.
So are we going to see lots of modded small cars? Unlikely as cars are more complicated and have tighter packaging so it's hard to fit bigger alternative engines in for the amateur mechanic.
So are we going to see lots of modded small cars? Unlikely as cars are more complicated and have tighter packaging so it's hard to fit bigger alternative engines in for the amateur mechanic.
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Chris71 said:
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Doesn't a 1-Series have all those options? Our 09-plate C30 did.I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Chris71 said:
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
So you're the target market for the Aston Cygnet. I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
It's partly because car companies don't want to canibilise the sales of their larger, higher margin models.
Mercedes used to do this; The C class AMG used to have to make do with 4.3 litre V8. If you wanted a 55 you had to shell out for an E, a CL or a CLK. If you wanted a V12 you had to go for an S, CL or or SL
The recent M3 has a V8 whilst the M5 gets the full fat V10
etc
Mercedes used to do this; The C class AMG used to have to make do with 4.3 litre V8. If you wanted a 55 you had to shell out for an E, a CL or a CLK. If you wanted a V12 you had to go for an S, CL or or SL
The recent M3 has a V8 whilst the M5 gets the full fat V10
etc
Edited by angusc43 on Friday 1st October 11:53
Risotto said:
There are generally issues around actually getting a sufficiently powerful engine to fit. Even if it does fit, it needs to be serviceable - nobody wants to pay huge labour bills because even the simplest jobs require the engine to be removed.
But I think it's possible to some extent. The IQ above has a 1.3 litre engine. I suspect with a turbo on it could muster up fairly respectable HP. Add in some sporty gearing and it'd work. Bit like an S1 Elise, it wasn't all the powerful, not even in power to weight terms, but it's still hugely fast on the road or track.I've also read that a 1.5 (or 1.6 engine) fits in the IQ, presume its the same physical engine as the 1.3 just larger displacement.
Risotto said:
Having said that, I would imagine the main reason you don't see such cars is that manufacturers don't see it as good business sense to offer a small cheap car that's quicker than their more expensive performance models.
On face value I agree. But on further thinking about it I think it's a flawed rational.Edited by Risotto on Friday 1st October 11:41
Different cars offer different things. Offering a small quick car won't then prevent larger cars offering different things. More room, better looks, more luxury and toys, better long distance and cruising, more seats or boot space type of thing.
I mean given the choice:
Car A, 960kg, small, revy and 160hp
Car B, 1400kg not so small, 170hp V6
For short distance and country roads Car A would be the choice, for longer distance or high speed m/way work, most people would want a bigger more comfy car I would have thought?
(crap example I know
)edo said:
supply and demand. The vast majority of people who want a small city car neither want or need a 200bhp engine in it.
If there was a decent market, it would be on sale.
But it's not about it being just a city car. Its about people who still want small, affordable, good mpg yet with a good does of performance.If there was a decent market, it would be on sale.
How many threads are there with people moaning about diesels being boring. But a lot run them because they do 45-60mpg.
How many of them would be swayed to a petrol car that is also capable of 50mpg+?
ewenm said:
Factory-fit powerful light small cars - not much market for them IMO due to maintenance, insurance, mpg and CO2 costs.
But aren't all those issue true and somewhat worse the bigger a car gets? I suspect a Focus ST or Golf GTI would both have worse mpg and C02 figures than a 960-1050kg car with the same/similar power to weight.Chris71 said:
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Chris, that is exactly my point.I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
While money is important and an issue for most. Lets just remove it for a moment. If you had say £50 to spend on a car. There is little choice (from any price, of course you don't have to spend £50k, you could spend £9-15k if you wanted).
But with all the cars on sale in this price range, fast and luxury cars tend to be big, large and bigger.
There are no small luxury GT cars at all. No plush 2 seaters (MINI probably gets closest if you consider it a 2+2 3 door coupe).
MonkeyMatt said:
Abarth 500 SS fits the bill closer than anything else on sale!
I looked at these when they were new. Well actually that's not true, I went to my local dealer to look at them. But they don't do any Abarth models at all and couldn't even tell me the most local dealer for them. So I was sent home to try and find out on the internet.I did and despite living in a well populated area not far from London, the nearest dealer was too far away to make it worth the effort. And the website was rubbish.
A lot comes down to your definition of small and fast combined with many people having got used to the increasing size of cars because they want more kit and safety enhancements. The perception that size equals strength and better in a accident is also likely to reduce the demand for small and high powered cars as they will be seen as dangerous.
That said i totally agree that small high power cars are great fun, definately neccessary in a world becoming more obsessed with running costs and eco damage so when a sub 100kg + 200+hp car that is considered safe/practical arrives at circa £10K im sure it will sell!
You just have to remember that far too many people buy small city cars based how many cubby holes there are in the dash or how cute it looks lol
That said i totally agree that small high power cars are great fun, definately neccessary in a world becoming more obsessed with running costs and eco damage so when a sub 100kg + 200+hp car that is considered safe/practical arrives at circa £10K im sure it will sell!
You just have to remember that far too many people buy small city cars based how many cubby holes there are in the dash or how cute it looks lol
aka_kerrly said:
A lot comes down to your definition of small and fast combined with many people having got used to the increasing size of cars because they want more kit and safety enhancements. The perception that size equals strength and better in a accident is also likely to reduce the demand for small and high powered cars as they will be seen as dangerous.
That said i totally agree that small high power cars are great fun, definately neccessary in a world becoming more obsessed with running costs and eco damage so when a sub 100kg + 200+hp car that is considered safe/practical arrives at circa £10K im sure it will sell!
You just have to remember that far too many people buy small city cars based how many cubby holes there are in the dash or how cute it looks lol
lol indeed. I guess its not trying to sell to the same market, but attract those that won't normally have bought one.That said i totally agree that small high power cars are great fun, definately neccessary in a world becoming more obsessed with running costs and eco damage so when a sub 100kg + 200+hp car that is considered safe/practical arrives at circa £10K im sure it will sell!
You just have to remember that far too many people buy small city cars based how many cubby holes there are in the dash or how cute it looks lol
Even more so for lineups like Toyota where they don't really offer anything fast or fun at present.
How good a marketing angle would it be if they could claim even their hottest fun models still carry the same green credentials as their hybrid Prius?
ewenm said:
Chris71 said:
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
Doesn't a 1-Series have all those options? Our 09-plate C30 did.I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
kambites said:
Chris71 said:
I also wonder why you get so few small luxury cars. I slightly object to the fact I have to buy something the size of a 5 Series to get leather, cruise control, good noise insulation, a premium sound system etc.
I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
So you're the target market for the Aston Cygnet. I know some of it is due to physics - for example, a large enough wheelbase an overhangs for effective aerodynamics on top end sports cars - and some of it's due to packaging, but I think think there's also a perception that small cars are base level cars only. If you want something better you're expected to move up a size for reasons that aren't entirely clear.
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