Right of way question

[drfrank]

Dear All,

As a relatively new cyclist I have a basic question which I would like answering please....

I am positioned close to the kerb minding my own, cycling to work.

Ahead of me is car indicating to turn right and as such poistioned close to the centre of the road. As I approach a car attempts to get around the car by heading in my direction close to the kerb (undertaking essentially).

The driver failed to see me and I resorted to delivering a firm kick to the passenger door to ensure she didn't knock me off.

My question is...who is at fault ?

1) Is it me ? I am undertaking the traffic and so I should be aware of all traffice at all times ?

or

2) Is it the driver ? She failed to indicate/check mirrors and check it was safe to undertake the stationary car

Just interested, as I'm sure this will not be the last time it happens....

[itsnotarace]

If the car you kicked was already ahead of you and pulled left to go around the obstruction, whilst you were coming up on their inside then you are 100% at fault I'm afraid.

You should learn to cycle defensively - if that had been a lorry you would be dead now.

[ewenm]

It sounds like you needed to be further out from the kerb and in the flow of traffic going round the right-turning car, rather than positioning yourself where drivers overtake you then cut in to go around the car. However, that won't stop some people doing dangerous things and self-preservation counts above absolute "right" and "wrong".

[drfrank]

No I completely understand your points and I am definately a defensive driver (more so in the last few days since the birth of my son Max

Maybe I didn't explain it as well as I could have. I was simply cycling along and passing traffic when said car pulled into me without indicating. Hence why I ended up booting the passenger door and not the rear door. I was ahead of the car in question as she undertook the car turning right whilst trying to overtake me.

[ewenm]

You'll develop a 6th-sense as you ride more - I used to commute 10 miles each way across London and had some risky incidents every day (esp on the Elephant and Castle roundabouts ) but quickly started positioning myself in such a way as to maximise my safety. Sometimes that is in the centre of a lane to take my own space, sometimes it's off at the left and sometimes it's avoiding cycle lanes as they often dump you in the worst places for your journey.

In the incident you describe it sounds like you encountered a stupid driver. You might have been able to mitigate the danger by drifting right as you approach the turning car so that there is no room for anyone to overtake you as this car did. That sort of thing won't work every time though and sometimes you will just need to take avoiding action.

[drfrank]

My path did not alter, I was just simply cycling along !

It was the middle aged, overweight lady in the car who veered off into me.

[ewenm]

drfrank said:

My path did not alter, I was just simply cycling along !

It was the middle aged, overweight lady in the car who veered off into me.

I'm saying you might have been able to make yourself safer by changing your path to make it so there was no room for her to overtake you and then veer in. "Just cycling along" isn't always the safest thing to do.

[itsnotarace]

drfrank said:

was simply cycling along and passing traffic when said car pulled into me without indicating.

drfrank said:

I was ahead of the car in question as she undertook the car turning right whilst trying to overtake me.

This is a contradiction. If you were passing traffic then it should be on the right hand side. If you try and pass on the left you have to be extremely cautious.

If the latter is true, then you should have been aware of the obstruction of the car turning right and taken "your lane" (ride down the middle of the road) to prevent someone trying to squeeze in between you and the car turning right.

[Mr Will]

I'm always very wary of filtering on the left of traffic, people just don't look before moving left.

When there is a queue of traffic like this I will (normally) filter down the right hand side instead, people don't tend to turn right without looking and even if they do you will have a lot more room to do something about it.

[drfrank]

Not really a contradiction, maybe if I could draw a pic it would help.

Either way I think I need to cycle more defensively and as you say, exercise extreme caution when 'undertaking' and take up more of the road to prevent cars trying to squeeze between the kerb and the car.

[Mr Will]

drfrank said:

Not really a contradiction, maybe if I could draw a pic it would help.

Either way I think I need to cycle more defensively and as you say, exercise extreme caution when 'undertaking' and take up more of the road to prevent cars trying to squeeze between the kerb and the car.

Cycle to the left to allow cars to pass whenever there is room.
Cycle in the middle of the lane to prevent them trying to pass when there isn't.
Cycle to the right of anything you need to overtake (unless it is indicating right itself).

Undertaking is dodgy at the best of times and although filtering in the centre of the road near the oncoming traffic might seem scary, it's actually a much safer place to be.

[zebedee]

Mr Will said:

drfrank said:

Not really a contradiction, maybe if I could draw a pic it would help.

Either way I think I need to cycle more defensively and as you say, exercise extreme caution when 'undertaking' and take up more of the road to prevent cars trying to squeeze between the kerb and the car.

Cycle to the left to allow cars to pass whenever there is room.
Cycle in the middle of the lane to prevent them trying to pass when there isn't.
Cycle to the right of anything you need to overtake (unless it is indicating right itself).

Undertaking is dodgy at the best of times and although filtering in the centre of the road near the oncoming traffic might seem scary, it's actually a much safer place to be.

but never so far to the left that you have to swerve around potholes, manholes etc. Closest I usually get is about 1' foot from the kerb. In my view if you have to make EVERY single motorist passing you think about it, then that is a result. If they would storm by with you 6" further to the left, then clearly that wouldn't have been safe. I used to think it would make them irate, but no-one is bothered. There is a series of 7 blind bends on my ride in though and on that section, although uphill so I am only doing about 9mph I ride in the middle of the lane to emphasise the fact the road is too narrow and that I have had too many close shaves there with people squeezing past. This way, if they feel they want to risk an overtake, they are putting themselves more at risk than me, and funnily enough, the number of people passing has reduced a lot and most people seem to understand why I do it, though I do get the odd "get over to the left" comment. Why they think the fact that they left home too late is any of my concern I don't know! I think when adopting what is commonly called 'primary' position, the key thing is to look behind well in advance, make sure you aren't cutting anyone up doing it and keep a nice steady line, looking behind regularly so the person knows you know they are there, but do get out of the way again when there is no good reason to be in primary.

Sounds from your post as though she was at fault, but that's no consolation if you go under her tyres, the best thing you could have done is realised there wasn't room for a bike and a car so taken up more of the lane because, as demonstrated above, most motorists think there is ample room when there isn't

[Rich_W]

Right of way sadly doesn't mean st, if you are knocked off.

Ride in a fashion so you don't hold up too many people (causes people to make rash overtakes) and assume that people haven't seen you and will do something stupid. You have chosen a bad time of year to start though.

Have fun

[Fatman2]

Sadly you have to think that all car drivers are idiots (even though they're not) and to ride accordingly.

It takes time to ride safely and often this means riding in places where it's counter intuitive e.g. away from the kerb. Although this cheeses off some drivers no end, it's usually the best policy to make yourself as big as possible and to make sure that every car passing has to slow down and drive right round you. If you ride too close to the kerb then drivers often don't slow down at all and squeeze through.

I'm not saying that lady would have driven any better but she would have known that there was no space to get through. As always though these situations add to your experience so I've no doubt you will approach similar scenarios differently.

Glad to hear you weren't knocked off and hope your foot gave the lady a souveneir

[Vipers]

drfrank said:

I was simply cycling along and passing traffic when said car pulled into me without indicating. Hence why I ended up booting the passenger door and not the rear door. I was ahead of the car in question as she undertook the car turning right whilst trying to overtake me.

Theres your problem

[zebedee]

Fatman2 said:

As always though these situations add to your experience so I've no doubt you will approach similar scenarios differently.

This is a really good point - whenever you have a close call on your commute, make sure you don't let the same thing happen again. Examples I have on mine include someone passing me going onto a roundabout and then turning left, nearly taking me off, so now I always ride into the middle of the lane on the immediate approach to any roundabout I am going straight across (having checked behind for an appropriate gap first of course), which makes that manouevre impossible for numpty road users. Again, not one person has been annoyed by me doing it