TVR S on track
Discussion
Hi All
As the winters here i'm unlikely to get to have some major fun in my newly purchased S2 for a few months but wanted to know how many of you have actually done track days / nurburgring in your cars?
How do the old S's perform and what essential mods are there for those really looking to use abuse the car (brakes, shocks etc)? (need to know what to buy before spring/summer arrives :-D)
I personally can't wait to do a ring trip (only ever been round on a bike before). Anyone know what the best btg time if for a non-V8 S?
As the winters here i'm unlikely to get to have some major fun in my newly purchased S2 for a few months but wanted to know how many of you have actually done track days / nurburgring in your cars?
How do the old S's perform and what essential mods are there for those really looking to use abuse the car (brakes, shocks etc)? (need to know what to buy before spring/summer arrives :-D)
I personally can't wait to do a ring trip (only ever been round on a bike before). Anyone know what the best btg time if for a non-V8 S?
I once did the Ring in a Mk4 Golf GTI Turbo which was fitted with some Eibach springs. The car was superb and very quick...left my two travelling companions Porkers (928, 911 Turbo), but part of the reason was that it was so stable and safe, ie it terminally understeered...so I came away thinking I have got to do this in a real car, so about 7 yers ago I bought myself an S1 with the idea of making some improvements, just as you mention. I used to own a nearly new S3 and remembered it to be a great car, just needing a bit more power...but I did not realise there were so many samll, and mostly cosmetic differences between an S1 to an S3. Anyhow, my S1 now has the extra power, via a BOA Cosworth, S3 rear suspension arms, 450lb springs all round with Gaz shocks, uprated front discs and callipers from Escort Cosworth, roll bar and numerous other mods, oh, and I am currently experimenting with a rear anti roll bar, but despite all this I still have not done the ring in it!, but I have done loads of trackdays.
Overall the car has performed really well, and has always been amongst the quicker cars at any trackday. It used to have overheating and fueling issues, but a new fuel pump and a decent radiator have resolved these problems.
The basic mods needed will be;
Decent shocks...yours maybe alright. Ultimately this is the cars achilles heel. Properly developed shocks are not available off the shelf and given the value of the cars, you cannot justify spending several thousand pounds on expensive adjustable shocks to set up the high speed/low speed damping properly, so most people compromise with GAZ or AVO, although I personally prefer GAZ.
I have tested lots of different spring rates, and have found these shocks work pretty well with 450lb/in spring rates. Some people have fitted 450lb/in at the front and 375 at the rear in the belief that you should have a higher rate at the front. This is a simplistic statement because it does not take into account the leverage forces on the springs for the different suspension geometry, but ultimately its down to personal choice and the feel "you" like.
One of my main gripes has always been body roll, and whence the higher rear spring rate and now the rear anti roll bar. The above spring rates are fine on the road, but when you really push it on a track you`ll see what I mean. I have also found that disconecting the front anti roll bar significantly improves the turn in and reduces the steering loads, but obviously does not help control body roll. I think the front anti roll bar is fine for road use, but if your are getting serious about track work then you need both (I know an ex chief chassis designer for the Honda touring BTCC team, and he says the first thing they do is fit heavy anti roll bars front and rear to any car for track work) and on a good surface its great, but predictably on a poor surface the body control is all over the place.
So in summary, decent shocks, the appropriate spring rates, and also some good tyres. I use Toyo T1R`s which are a very good all round compromise, but when they wear the next move will be some proper trackday tyres. With all the above, the car will be very fast.
The other area is brakes. A lot of rubbish is spouted on this subject. For several years I ran standard brakes (drums at the rear) with Green stuff pads, steel braided brake hoses, and fresh fluid. The brakes were designed for a family car which fully loaded with a trailer could weigh 2 - 2.5 tonnes?. The TVR S fully loaded weighs 1.3 tonnes with two people and fuel etc. The only reason I fitted the larger discs was because I have done an airfield trackday near where I live for the last few years, and there are a couple of very long straights where the old girl gets a good lick on (in excess of 150mph on the main runway), and at the end on one of these straights there is a hairpin. Once or twice whilst leaving the braking to the last minute it has got a bit hairy trying to stop..although there are only cones to negotiate as a result of my poor judgement. It is true to say though that I leave the braking very late. Other than this, I have never experienced any brake fade with the original set up on any of the circuits I have driven. Big brakes look good, but they also weigh more, which does not help wheel control.
Something else I have discovered recently, ensure the steering column universal joints are in phase with each other, ie the cross axis are lined up, otherwise they will be fighting each other. My steering was always very light when straight ahead, and prone to bump steer, and heavy under lock. It is now much better weighted, with no bump steer, and has a far more direct feel.
Overall you will not find a more charismatic and fun car for the money. I do think you could buy an MX5, supercharge it, and buy some off the shelf goodies for the suspension, and end up with a seriously quick car, but....its just, well, not the same.
Overall the car has performed really well, and has always been amongst the quicker cars at any trackday. It used to have overheating and fueling issues, but a new fuel pump and a decent radiator have resolved these problems.
The basic mods needed will be;
Decent shocks...yours maybe alright. Ultimately this is the cars achilles heel. Properly developed shocks are not available off the shelf and given the value of the cars, you cannot justify spending several thousand pounds on expensive adjustable shocks to set up the high speed/low speed damping properly, so most people compromise with GAZ or AVO, although I personally prefer GAZ.
I have tested lots of different spring rates, and have found these shocks work pretty well with 450lb/in spring rates. Some people have fitted 450lb/in at the front and 375 at the rear in the belief that you should have a higher rate at the front. This is a simplistic statement because it does not take into account the leverage forces on the springs for the different suspension geometry, but ultimately its down to personal choice and the feel "you" like.
One of my main gripes has always been body roll, and whence the higher rear spring rate and now the rear anti roll bar. The above spring rates are fine on the road, but when you really push it on a track you`ll see what I mean. I have also found that disconecting the front anti roll bar significantly improves the turn in and reduces the steering loads, but obviously does not help control body roll. I think the front anti roll bar is fine for road use, but if your are getting serious about track work then you need both (I know an ex chief chassis designer for the Honda touring BTCC team, and he says the first thing they do is fit heavy anti roll bars front and rear to any car for track work) and on a good surface its great, but predictably on a poor surface the body control is all over the place.
So in summary, decent shocks, the appropriate spring rates, and also some good tyres. I use Toyo T1R`s which are a very good all round compromise, but when they wear the next move will be some proper trackday tyres. With all the above, the car will be very fast.
The other area is brakes. A lot of rubbish is spouted on this subject. For several years I ran standard brakes (drums at the rear) with Green stuff pads, steel braided brake hoses, and fresh fluid. The brakes were designed for a family car which fully loaded with a trailer could weigh 2 - 2.5 tonnes?. The TVR S fully loaded weighs 1.3 tonnes with two people and fuel etc. The only reason I fitted the larger discs was because I have done an airfield trackday near where I live for the last few years, and there are a couple of very long straights where the old girl gets a good lick on (in excess of 150mph on the main runway), and at the end on one of these straights there is a hairpin. Once or twice whilst leaving the braking to the last minute it has got a bit hairy trying to stop..although there are only cones to negotiate as a result of my poor judgement. It is true to say though that I leave the braking very late. Other than this, I have never experienced any brake fade with the original set up on any of the circuits I have driven. Big brakes look good, but they also weigh more, which does not help wheel control.
Something else I have discovered recently, ensure the steering column universal joints are in phase with each other, ie the cross axis are lined up, otherwise they will be fighting each other. My steering was always very light when straight ahead, and prone to bump steer, and heavy under lock. It is now much better weighted, with no bump steer, and has a far more direct feel.
Overall you will not find a more charismatic and fun car for the money. I do think you could buy an MX5, supercharge it, and buy some off the shelf goodies for the suspension, and end up with a seriously quick car, but....its just, well, not the same.
Mark thanks for that comprehensive response.
I will be working on the car this weekend and will take a look at the shocks and brakes.
I assume you fitted powerflex bushes all round too when changing shocks and arb?
I will probably end up doing the nurburgring more than track days (want to see if I can beat my pb laptime on the bike).
I will be working on the car this weekend and will take a look at the shocks and brakes.
I assume you fitted powerflex bushes all round too when changing shocks and arb?
I will probably end up doing the nurburgring more than track days (want to see if I can beat my pb laptime on the bike).
Hi Andrew, I have recently undertaken a "Ring" trip and you might want to have a look at my report below
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
All I really did for the trip was to fit new gaz gold pros and make sure the car was 100% fit for the trip, I already have 278mm front brakes which really helped because as you know there are some very quick parts of the ring followed by some slow bends
My personal thoughts are do not try and beat any particular time just enjoy the track as it is, and I should imagine a bike time will be very hard to beat in an S.
Cheers.....Tony..
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
All I really did for the trip was to fit new gaz gold pros and make sure the car was 100% fit for the trip, I already have 278mm front brakes which really helped because as you know there are some very quick parts of the ring followed by some slow bends
My personal thoughts are do not try and beat any particular time just enjoy the track as it is, and I should imagine a bike time will be very hard to beat in an S.
Cheers.....Tony..
Andrew, I fitted new powerflex bushes at the front, and when the new trailing arms were fitted at the rear, new rubber bushes were fitted. Cannot say any of them have made any difference. I`d just make sure the originals are in good condition. I guess I could have had some solid nylon bushes machined up, but that will have adversly affected the ride on the road.
I am also a biker, but to be fair have not done any trackdays on one, but would love to. Anyhow, you are a brave man to ride a bike round the ring...I think the weekend I was there 2 or 3 British bikers were killed...and thats not uncommon apparently.
I am also a biker, but to be fair have not done any trackdays on one, but would love to. Anyhow, you are a brave man to ride a bike round the ring...I think the weekend I was there 2 or 3 British bikers were killed...and thats not uncommon apparently.
I have done the 'Ring' a few times in various cars including a Ford GT40 and seen some terrible accidents. My advice would be go for it, enjoy the experience but drive within your self and the car, dont try and be a racing driver if you are not. Even a slight ding with the Armco or even a brake down can cost you a huge amount of dosh. The last time I was there a guy in a Sierra Cosworth had a can of oil in his boot which fell over and leaked onto the track. They closed the track for near on an hour to clear it up and it cost him the best part of 1500Euros. Also remember they have a noise limit and test each car as it enters the track. Now I've given you all that woe go and enjoy it, live the history, and be careful there are a lot of idiots out there!! Any one done Spa?
Edited by wizzer on Friday 15th October 16:26
Hey
I did the 'ring a couple of weeks ago with the other guys who did the Euro TVR trip, and can say that as a biker there's no way i'll ever go around that track on a bike. There are total nutters tearing about in cars who cut you up on corners and come way too close. Being on a bike would scare the heck out of me - and I heard they average up to 30 crashes a DAY on the 'ring!
A
I did the 'ring a couple of weeks ago with the other guys who did the Euro TVR trip, and can say that as a biker there's no way i'll ever go around that track on a bike. There are total nutters tearing about in cars who cut you up on corners and come way too close. Being on a bike would scare the heck out of me - and I heard they average up to 30 crashes a DAY on the 'ring!
A
Hi all
Thanks for the concern I should have mentioned that I am familiar with the ring and know the dangers all to well - during my last trip the owner of sliders guest house had a major bike crash.
This is my bike lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7B_toUBYLU
I'm not really bothered about trying to go faster in the car i'm just going to be interested to see how the car will perform.
Thanks for the handling mods advice as well, I reckon a set of Gaz shocks will be on the shopping list in the new year.
Thanks for the concern I should have mentioned that I am familiar with the ring and know the dangers all to well - during my last trip the owner of sliders guest house had a major bike crash.
This is my bike lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7B_toUBYLU
I'm not really bothered about trying to go faster in the car i'm just going to be interested to see how the car will perform.
Thanks for the handling mods advice as well, I reckon a set of Gaz shocks will be on the shopping list in the new year.
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