B18C - Honda Integra Type R - engine failure
Discussion
Any early thoughts on this one folks?
88,000 mile B18C engine (VTec).
Steady 80mph down the motorway before it sounds like it lets go all of a sudden resulting in an engine speed related rattle - top endy by the sounds of it.
Engine has plenty of oil and coolant - all in the correct places! No engine lights showing.
TBH, it sounds fairly terminal, but does anyone have a bit of knowledge on these engines to give me a clue where to start? I've only had it, oohh, 6 hours.....
88,000 mile B18C engine (VTec).
Steady 80mph down the motorway before it sounds like it lets go all of a sudden resulting in an engine speed related rattle - top endy by the sounds of it.
Engine has plenty of oil and coolant - all in the correct places! No engine lights showing.
TBH, it sounds fairly terminal, but does anyone have a bit of knowledge on these engines to give me a clue where to start? I've only had it, oohh, 6 hours.....
It's actually my Dad who was driving when it failed. I've had a chat with him and he describes it as a heavy knock which he thinks is big end. Odd that the oil light goes out though...
I'd welcome any advice from folks with experience of this engine - is it possible to remove the sump, check and renew big ends with the engine in situ or does it have to come out?
I'd welcome any advice from folks with experience of this engine - is it possible to remove the sump, check and renew big ends with the engine in situ or does it have to come out?
It's possible to remove the sump and replace the big end bearings, but that won't help if the crank is worn or has been damaged.
A big end will tend to get noisier under load or on the overrun, and quieter under light throttle. It will also get noisier as the oil gets hotter. It's quite possible to still have enough oil pressure to put the light out even with a big end is knocking.
A big end will tend to get noisier under load or on the overrun, and quieter under light throttle. It will also get noisier as the oil gets hotter. It's quite possible to still have enough oil pressure to put the light out even with a big end is knocking.
Is it modified? Standard ones have a fantastic reliability rate but the ones that have been 'improved' by monkey-assed owners and 'tuners' often self destruct.
Also, are you sure it's the original engine? It's not unheard of for an unscrupulous person to replace it with a b18 from a knackered civic...
Also, are you sure it's the original engine? It's not unheard of for an unscrupulous person to replace it with a b18 from a knackered civic...
Right folks - an update...
I have today had the opportunity to strip it down and identified the following:
A bolt from the big end cap on no. 2 con rod has come loose, completely undone itself and then been fired into the inside of the block (nice)...
This has caused a little damage to the bottom of cylinder 2, but right at the bottom, well under the piston rings, so may not be too much of a problem. Unfortunately, the bolt has carried on its trajectory and punched a lump of alloy out of the front of the block. This looks to be repairable and there is no oil / water contamination, however, until I've got it completely stripped down I'm not sure.
I have already bought a set of rods, pistons and a crank, however, in the event that I need to replace the block as well can anyone tell me what commonality there is with other B18 / B16 blocks, where I might get one and how much I should pay?
The sump has obviously been removed recently, the gasket is new and all the bolt heads seem to have been undone recently. Therefore, I suspect that the previous owner dropped a big end (or a set) in before sale and didn't torque the bolts up properly...
If anyone has a suitable block or any good advice I'mm all ears!
I have today had the opportunity to strip it down and identified the following:
A bolt from the big end cap on no. 2 con rod has come loose, completely undone itself and then been fired into the inside of the block (nice)...
This has caused a little damage to the bottom of cylinder 2, but right at the bottom, well under the piston rings, so may not be too much of a problem. Unfortunately, the bolt has carried on its trajectory and punched a lump of alloy out of the front of the block. This looks to be repairable and there is no oil / water contamination, however, until I've got it completely stripped down I'm not sure.
I have already bought a set of rods, pistons and a crank, however, in the event that I need to replace the block as well can anyone tell me what commonality there is with other B18 / B16 blocks, where I might get one and how much I should pay?
The sump has obviously been removed recently, the gasket is new and all the bolt heads seem to have been undone recently. Therefore, I suspect that the previous owner dropped a big end (or a set) in before sale and didn't torque the bolts up properly...
If anyone has a suitable block or any good advice I'mm all ears!
Yowzer, sorry to hear that Jim. Was fairly sure it would be the bottom end but just figured you'd spun a shell based on your description.
Best advice would be to get on the owners club. They'll have recomendations or even affiliated traders who can supply you a good engine.
Beware of many of the engine suppliers out there, especially on the Jap scene. There's one company which trades under loads of names that is well known for shenanigans.
As for your engine, get it replaced, strip it down and see whats what, if the bottom end is as shagged as I think it will be then just junk it. Save the head to either modify and install or sell.
Or go baws out and fit a K20
Best advice would be to get on the owners club. They'll have recomendations or even affiliated traders who can supply you a good engine.
Beware of many of the engine suppliers out there, especially on the Jap scene. There's one company which trades under loads of names that is well known for shenanigans.
As for your engine, get it replaced, strip it down and see whats what, if the bottom end is as shagged as I think it will be then just junk it. Save the head to either modify and install or sell.
Or go baws out and fit a K20
Edited by Marf on Monday 25th October 19:07
AIUI the big end bolts on those are specced to be fitted with a stretch gauge rather than a torque setting and I can't imagine many people having one of those so perhaps it's not too surprising it wasn't done right.
Did the rod actually break or did the other bolt manage to hold it together? I imagine you'd be telling us about much more damage if it broke including the valves in that cylinder.
I'd just work your way through measuring everything properly first and make no assumptions about what's damaged. I can point you to a good alloy welder if need be to repair the block. The bore should be fine with a light hone to remove the high spots of any dimples the bolt impacts have made in it if the damage is confined to the very bottom part as you say. You must have this done with proper micrometer adjusting honing equipment though and not some poxy sprung-loaded mickey mouse tool which might just float over the bumps.
A set of ARP rod bolts might be a wise investment. Hopefully the top end is still fine if there was no piston / valve contact and not that hard to fix even if there was.
Did the rod actually break or did the other bolt manage to hold it together? I imagine you'd be telling us about much more damage if it broke including the valves in that cylinder.
I'd just work your way through measuring everything properly first and make no assumptions about what's damaged. I can point you to a good alloy welder if need be to repair the block. The bore should be fine with a light hone to remove the high spots of any dimples the bolt impacts have made in it if the damage is confined to the very bottom part as you say. You must have this done with proper micrometer adjusting honing equipment though and not some poxy sprung-loaded mickey mouse tool which might just float over the bumps.
A set of ARP rod bolts might be a wise investment. Hopefully the top end is still fine if there was no piston / valve contact and not that hard to fix even if there was.
Puma, quite right, the con rod bolts should be set to a stretch spec rather than torque. I don't have one of these gauges either, so I'll have to speak nicely to my local machine shop to see if they can help - unless anyone knows of an appropriate method of converting the stretch measurement to torque? Are these bolts strictly for one use only or could I salvage a set I have in some other rods I have on the shelf?
The one remaining bolt did manage to keep the con rod together thankfully, though I have already got another set of used rods and a crank if I need them. I'm guessing that the con rod would have been subjected to some pretty heavy stresses that it wasn't designed to withstand after running with one bolt in, so I'll probably look to replace that as a minimum having measured everything up.
Hopefully the block will be salvageable, I'll strip it down later and see how it looks.
Regarding the hone, I have previously used my local machine shop and have never had any problems with their work, I've used them for several rebuilds over the years, though I don't know what type of hone they use. I'll check that out and follow your advice.
The one remaining bolt did manage to keep the con rod together thankfully, though I have already got another set of used rods and a crank if I need them. I'm guessing that the con rod would have been subjected to some pretty heavy stresses that it wasn't designed to withstand after running with one bolt in, so I'll probably look to replace that as a minimum having measured everything up.
Hopefully the block will be salvageable, I'll strip it down later and see how it looks.
Regarding the hone, I have previously used my local machine shop and have never had any problems with their work, I've used them for several rebuilds over the years, though I don't know what type of hone they use. I'll check that out and follow your advice.
itiejim said:
Puma, quite right, the con rod bolts should be set to a stretch spec rather than torque.
If you know how much the bolts should be stretched on tightening then I would guess you can work out how much to tighten by knowing the pitch of the thread. For example, if the bolt were an M10 x 1.25, then once the bolt is snug a further full rotation will stretch the bolt by 1.25mm. Not being an engine builder I don't know if that it a viable method in this case but it makes some sense in my mind...itiejim said:
Puma, quite right, the con rod bolts should be set to a stretch spec rather than torque. I don't have one of these gauges either, so I'll have to speak nicely to my local machine shop to see if they can help - unless anyone knows of an appropriate method of converting the stretch measurement to torque? Are these bolts strictly for one use only or could I salvage a set I have in some other rods I have on the shelf?
Measuring stretch is certainly a more accurate method than using torque which is greatly affected by the unknown variable of thread friction. Up to 85% of the torque you apply to a bolt gets dissipated in overcoming friction rather than tightening the bolt. If bolts could be made of a material which was frictionless then a rod bolt you normally need to apply 40 ft lbs to would only require about 6 ft lbs which is barely a one finger pull on a small spanner. It gives you pause for thought anyway. What this of course means is a small difference in the friction level caused by a better lubricant such as moly or more accurately machined threads can lead to disproportionate changes in the bolt tension for a given torque. If the friction level changes from 85% to only 80% (a 6% change in that variable) then the bolt tension goes up by 1/3 because you now have 20% instead of 15% of the applied torque actually stretching it.ARP however manage to quote torque figures using either oil or their own moly lube as an alternative to their preferred stretch settings and most people manage perfectly happily with those including myself provided you follow proper fitting guidelines.
If you knew the bolt material and tensile strength it's possible to calculate the ideal torque for a given friction level but I suspect the OE bolts are not a standard material of a known tensile strength. You might check for any standard markings on them.
If you can just get an ordinary micrometer over the ends of a fitted bolt you could experiment with torque and stretch measurements until you find the relationship with a given lubricant. What I also find important in such critical fittings though is to snug them up to perhaps 75% of their final torque setting several times to burnish the threads together and get all the mating surfaces nicely bedded in. That reduces initial friction levels and makes for a more consistent result at the final assembly.
I do this three times with every bolt with oil on the threads and under the head, clean everything carefully again with petrol or white spirit, reapply my chosen final lubricant such as moly lube and then do them up properly. The required final torque with moly will of course be much less than that with oil, perhaps 30% less.
You can reuse bolts which have never been tightened past their elastic limit but given the sums involved I still think a set of ARP bolts would be a wise investment.
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