Vintage Bentley court case

[muppetboy]

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Damages...

interesting article. These old Bentleys are a bit of a nightmare I'd imagine as so many have been altered through their lives.

[bob1179]

An expensive error for the retailer there.

Could he not have fabricated the chassis of the 1927 car so that it was the same as the 1930 car?

Even then I suppose it would not be a genuine car and the history would not have been there.

[slomax]

This does not surprise me. I often wondered at what point does a rare vintage car no longer become original due to modificatons and repairs/rebuilds along the way?

[Andy 308GTB]

slomax said:

This does not surprise me. I often wondered at what point does a rare vintage car no longer become original due to modificatons and repairs/rebuilds along the way?

This is an absolute can of worms... Triggers Broom springs to mind.

[muppetboy]

I can only imagine somewhere it was in writing that it was sold as a genuine Speed Six otherwise surely the vendor will appeal this verdict. It would appear it was pricd as one.

[Andy 308GTB]

The vendor in question is probably one of the most well known dealers of these cars - and is a huge enthusiast. Always races at the VSCC meetings etc. Clearly he has lost this case and the damages and court costs are substantial - but it all smells a bit.

The lady paid £430k for a car she says was valued at £550k - did she not question why such a knowledgeable vendor was selling it at £120k below its valuation?
I think she overpaid for a £350k car - and is understandably sore about that, but that isn't the dealers fault.

[sumlin]

There was a huge court case back in about 1990 surrounding the "Old Number One" Bentley IIRC. Same sort of thing (the Triggers Broom analogy)

[muppetboy]

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/2444.h...

The case notes.

Seems the car was rebuilt from a rotten chassis with chassis number and little else.

It seems to be all about the wording in the ad originally and a lack of known infomation being passed to the buyer.

[MikeyT]

Is that his reputation shot then? Mind you, you don't expect to be mis-sold one of these cars by a *leading* expert ... with a known history.

[LordBretSinclair]

Andy 308GTB said:

The vendor in question is probably one of the most well known dealers of these cars - and is a huge enthusiast. Always races at the VSCC meetings etc. Clearly he has lost this case and the damages and court costs are substantial - but it all smells a bit.

The lady paid £430k for a car she says was valued at £550k - did she not question why such a knowledgeable vendor was selling it at £120k below its valuation?
I think she overpaid for a £350k car - and is understandably sore about that, but that isn't the dealers fault.

Andy, take the time to read the full court proceedings - you may change your view.

[a8hex]

If that ad really said what the submission quotes then she had every write to be miffed.

[davepoth]

"Caveat Emptor" as the phrase goes. £430,000 and they didn't think to get someone from the BDC to check it over?

[85Carrera]

Naughty Stanley!

Although the judge seems to have accepted the word of a convicted fraudster without too much question (this (and other issues) " ..could not be said to impugn his credibility to any significant extent" - really?). Very strange.

It's also a fact that anyone who knows anything about Bentleys and similar vintage cars know to get full provenance as that is the only way you will know what you are getting; you do not just rely on MOT certificates from 1980!

My take on it is that it was bought because it was percived to be cheap (due to the lack of documentation), and that when the purchaser was unable to sell it on at a profit due to the lack of provenance and was unable to meet the loan repayments, they looked to get out of the deal.

[AndrewW-G]

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

[muppetboy]

AndrewW-G said:

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

Have you read the case notes?

[AndrewW-G]

muppetboy said:

AndrewW-G said:

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

Have you read the case notes?

Yes, even wore my glasses

[muppetboy]

AndrewW-G said:

muppetboy said:

AndrewW-G said:

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

Have you read the case notes?

Yes, even wore my glasses

should have gone to spec savers then fella

[williamp]

davepoth said:

"Caveat Emptor" as the phrase goes. £430,000 and they didn't think to get someone from the BDC to check it over?

Yeah, but...

he is one of , if not THE world renowed dealer in vintage Bentleys. You simply would'nt expect to have an "expert" look at it- there should be no need

And the BDC probably would say "take it to stanley mann for an inspection..."

[friederich]

muppetboy said:

AndrewW-G said:

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

Have you read the case notes?

You clearly have a view on this - care to share your thoughts?

[AndrewW-G]

muppetboy said:

AndrewW-G said:

muppetboy said:

AndrewW-G said:

The judgement makes very interesting reading. If I were the judge, given the evidence as stated, I'd have to side with Stanley Mann.

I can understand somebody being bankrupted if a vintage Rolls that was sold as concours turned out to have a cracked block and is incapable of being driven more than a mile or two under its own power, but this was a full functional car that was known within the BDC and had a history that could be traced via the chassis / engine / gearbox / axle serial numbers

Have you read the case notes?

Yes, even wore my glasses

should have gone to spec savers then fella

And the plaintiff should have completed due diligence prior to spending £400k+ on a 80 year old car, that was very obviously vastly different in its configuration now than it was when it left the factory . . . . . An inspection of the car, would have yielded all the stamped numbers on the major parts, it would have taken a simple phone call to any of the various experts the BDC would recommend to verify the history of the components

Only a fool would buy a Bentley of this era (or any other classic with a 6 figure price tag), without an expert second opinion, something that according to the judgement, even SM who knows more about these cars than almost anybody else in the UK had apparently done