Ford GT owner lends car to tuner....tuner crashes.
Discussion
Ouch...this was posted on another forum I frequent.
Anyone who's ever been hesitant to hand over their keys to another driver, or conversely to get behind the wheel of someone else's car – exotic or otherwise – will want to take note of the following story currently being played out on the internet's extensive web of car enthusiast forums.
The story revolves around a Ford GT – one of the finest exotics ever produced by an American automaker – its customization, and its unfortunate demise. The car – in classic Gulf baby blue and orange heritage livery and outfitted with twin turbochargers – belongs to one Ray Hofman, who wanted to have some modifications carried out to make it more drivable in advance of a Ford GT rally event. Having struck out with other tuners, Ray turned to Bill Knobloch of Discovery Automotive, better known to forum members as Shadowman. Bill agreed to carry out the tuning Ray was looking for, handed over the keys, and from there things went downhill in more ways than one. Follow the jump to read on.
The driver's account of the situation unfolds on Ford GT Forum as follows: After examining the car in his garage and asking for (and receiving) Ray's insurance and registration papers, Bill (a.k.a. Shadowman) says he took the GT out onto the open road to examine the behavior of the turbo boost. He claims he was driving slowly along the highway when he inexplicably lost control of the car, spun off the road, and the next thing he knew, he was climbing out of a ravine, the car laying damaged below. Bill was briefly hospitalized, but released within hours, after which he contacted Ray (the owner) to let him know that he'd been in an accident. He said he couldn't get close enough to the car after the crash to determine the extent of the damage, but that he assessed that more damage would likely be caused by the tow truck extracting the car from the ravine than had been incurred in the crash itself. He couldn't explain how the car spun out of control, but he apparently noted that this sort of outcome was precisely why he had made sure to arrange the insurance papers ahead of time.
The car owner paints quite a different picture on Bimmerboost's forums. According to Ray, he received an email from Bill informing him that he was taking the car out on the road, but didn't hear back from him until the next day when he was informed of the supposedly "minor" crash. With little information to go by, Ray flew out to Los Angeles where Bill's garage is located and where the crash occurred. Arriving at the tow company, Ray immediately saw that his car suffered significantly more damage than he expected. Proceeding out to the scene of the crash with the tow truck driver (who allegedly described that stretch of highway as the local drag strip and the apparent driver as a "pilot"), Ray could see skid marks on the road (contrary to Bill's account) and the broken trees as high as 30 feet in the air. He and the tow truck driver surmised that Bill must have hit a tree on the side of the road, spun around 180 degrees, flown off the highway backwards, and struck another tree, which shattered the transaxle and pushed the engine through the bulkhead.
Both driver and owner – as well as the highway patrolman on the scene – agreed that it was a miracle that Bill walked away essentially unscathed from the crash. Unfortunately that's where their thoughts splits. Bill claims that the liability for the damage to the car is entirely the responsibility of the car's owner, and that as a small business, he doesn't carry a policy for such cases. Ray says he gave Bill ample opportunity to make it right, but that Bill deflected any responsibility for having totaled his exotic while adding a personal injury claim onto the Ray's insurance. One way or another, it's quite the mess. For our part we're just glad we're not the ones who have to sort it out. Thanks for the tip, Jeff!More from the owner...
Autoblog said:
Anyone who's ever been hesitant to hand over their keys to another driver, or conversely to get behind the wheel of someone else's car – exotic or otherwise – will want to take note of the following story currently being played out on the internet's extensive web of car enthusiast forums.
The story revolves around a Ford GT – one of the finest exotics ever produced by an American automaker – its customization, and its unfortunate demise. The car – in classic Gulf baby blue and orange heritage livery and outfitted with twin turbochargers – belongs to one Ray Hofman, who wanted to have some modifications carried out to make it more drivable in advance of a Ford GT rally event. Having struck out with other tuners, Ray turned to Bill Knobloch of Discovery Automotive, better known to forum members as Shadowman. Bill agreed to carry out the tuning Ray was looking for, handed over the keys, and from there things went downhill in more ways than one. Follow the jump to read on.
The driver's account of the situation unfolds on Ford GT Forum as follows: After examining the car in his garage and asking for (and receiving) Ray's insurance and registration papers, Bill (a.k.a. Shadowman) says he took the GT out onto the open road to examine the behavior of the turbo boost. He claims he was driving slowly along the highway when he inexplicably lost control of the car, spun off the road, and the next thing he knew, he was climbing out of a ravine, the car laying damaged below. Bill was briefly hospitalized, but released within hours, after which he contacted Ray (the owner) to let him know that he'd been in an accident. He said he couldn't get close enough to the car after the crash to determine the extent of the damage, but that he assessed that more damage would likely be caused by the tow truck extracting the car from the ravine than had been incurred in the crash itself. He couldn't explain how the car spun out of control, but he apparently noted that this sort of outcome was precisely why he had made sure to arrange the insurance papers ahead of time.
The car owner paints quite a different picture on Bimmerboost's forums. According to Ray, he received an email from Bill informing him that he was taking the car out on the road, but didn't hear back from him until the next day when he was informed of the supposedly "minor" crash. With little information to go by, Ray flew out to Los Angeles where Bill's garage is located and where the crash occurred. Arriving at the tow company, Ray immediately saw that his car suffered significantly more damage than he expected. Proceeding out to the scene of the crash with the tow truck driver (who allegedly described that stretch of highway as the local drag strip and the apparent driver as a "pilot"), Ray could see skid marks on the road (contrary to Bill's account) and the broken trees as high as 30 feet in the air. He and the tow truck driver surmised that Bill must have hit a tree on the side of the road, spun around 180 degrees, flown off the highway backwards, and struck another tree, which shattered the transaxle and pushed the engine through the bulkhead.
Both driver and owner – as well as the highway patrolman on the scene – agreed that it was a miracle that Bill walked away essentially unscathed from the crash. Unfortunately that's where their thoughts splits. Bill claims that the liability for the damage to the car is entirely the responsibility of the car's owner, and that as a small business, he doesn't carry a policy for such cases. Ray says he gave Bill ample opportunity to make it right, but that Bill deflected any responsibility for having totaled his exotic while adding a personal injury claim onto the Ray's insurance. One way or another, it's quite the mess. For our part we're just glad we're not the ones who have to sort it out. Thanks for the tip, Jeff!
Ray said:
sent my 2006 Heritage Twin Turbo to Shadowman along with Chip Beck's car to get ready for the last FGT Rally.
There had been a bunch of small issues that I originally wanted the GT Guys to go through and fix however they simply couldn't get out this way and logistics did not seem to be working to send the car to them.
In talking to Chip he suggested that perhaps we give our cars to Shadowman to work on, his only bad experience with Bill being the final bill being so expensive compared to other Tuners. Since you usually get what you pay for, this wasn't deemed a major issue given the nature of the things I wanted done being very minor and decided to send him the cars.
When the cars arrived Shadowman in his usual forum persona sent me a long email and pictures of the car in his shop and his plan to go forward and "tweak my gal"... This went on for a couple of days with the minor observations he was making about this and that.
It was during these updates that he started asking for a copy of my insurance card. I simply told him that it was insured however he insisted on getting a copy of it to prove that it was insured before he would "test" drive it later that night when the hiways "cleared"...
Although warning bells were going off and this seemed weird, I sent him a scanned copy of the card. With all the tuners that I deal with I have never been asked for a copy of the card but rather they would show me that they had insurance as they run legitimate businesses.
I received the following email from Bill on the evening of the accident...
________________________________________________ ______________________________
From: Shadowman
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:01:49 -0700
To: Ray
Subject: RE: Shadowman
It remains my pleasure Ray
Thank you for the data points.
Your gal and I are about to embark on our "get to know each other"
adventure.
First a fuel stop ....... then a methodical cruise on the highway after
which I will bring her into boost and see how she responds while adjusting
the boost controller.
Takes care
Bill aka Shadowman
Welcome to Discovery Automotive High Performance Exotic Tuner for BMW ///M series, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, Ford GT.
________________________________________________ ____________________________
I went to bed that night about 2am with my final text message being one to Bill asking if he was ok... as I hadn't heard anything.
I woke up the next morning to an email from Bill stating that he had a small incident with the car, that he had been driving like a little old lady and the car had went off the road and down an embankment, and that he didn't know what had happened. He followed up with the facts of the towing company, the police report number and that he was hurting but ok and heading home and that we would talk later in the day.
Of course my first objective was to make sure he was ok when we were able to talk later that afternoon giving him time to rest a little. He stated that he was banged up a bit but fine, and that he had walked / crawled up the embankment, had been checked out by the hospital and that despite having a headache he was ok.
Since establishing that he was ok my next question was about the car and it's condition. This was when things started to get a little "shady"...
He got a little defensive stating that he didn't really know as he wasn't really in the mindset to pay much attention to it given the circumstances. I responded with asking some more details of the accident and that surely he had SOME idea of the condition and what happened to help me out 2000 miles away with some sort of picture of what the state of the car was left in. Again, he recounted his story that he was doing 65 mph down the hiway driving like a "little old lady", that all of sudden the car went right off the road, jumped a curb and slid down an embankment. He told me time and time again that there were no skid marks, nothing out of the ordinary had been going on and had no idea what happened.
He finished by saying that "he would be more worried about the possible damage done by the tow company pulling it up the embankment than the actual damage done by the accident"
While this made me feel much better about the condition of the car and that he was alright, I asked him if he had or could take any pictures to which he replied that he would "try and get to it that week IF he felt up to it" and that he would get back to me later in the week.
My next question to Bill was how are we going to handle this?
His response was that while he was sorry for the situation, it really was none of his responsibility and that was why he had asked for my insurance card.
This gave me great cause for concern at the lack of care given the situation and the somewhat shadowy story. I immediately called Shelby of Elite Autos and Alex Shen at SP Engineering to try and make a plan to see the car the next morning. Given the story I was unsure if it was something that we would want an insurance claim on and if it was as minor as Shadowman had relayed that we would figure out the damage and what it would take to repair it. It was decided that going to pick up Shelby would add a lot of time and that since Alex was already in Los Angeles it would be more efficient to have him go with me to look at the car and assess the damage.
I immediately flew to LA and stayed with Alex that night in preparation to be at the Towing Company as soon as they opened up the next morning. We discussed the situation and talked cars as I relayed Shadowman's version of the story and decided that it was probably not a big deal and would see in the morning.
Note that the incident was Saturday night and I arrived at the tow company Monday morning at 8am
When we arrived and signed in to see the car, the tow truck driver first asked where the "Pilot" was?? Kind of laughing at our confusion he said "you know, the driver, the pilot... flying through the air that far and that fast you have to call yourself a pilot!"...
gut sink in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....
And a bit more...There had been a bunch of small issues that I originally wanted the GT Guys to go through and fix however they simply couldn't get out this way and logistics did not seem to be working to send the car to them.
In talking to Chip he suggested that perhaps we give our cars to Shadowman to work on, his only bad experience with Bill being the final bill being so expensive compared to other Tuners. Since you usually get what you pay for, this wasn't deemed a major issue given the nature of the things I wanted done being very minor and decided to send him the cars.
When the cars arrived Shadowman in his usual forum persona sent me a long email and pictures of the car in his shop and his plan to go forward and "tweak my gal"... This went on for a couple of days with the minor observations he was making about this and that.
It was during these updates that he started asking for a copy of my insurance card. I simply told him that it was insured however he insisted on getting a copy of it to prove that it was insured before he would "test" drive it later that night when the hiways "cleared"...
Although warning bells were going off and this seemed weird, I sent him a scanned copy of the card. With all the tuners that I deal with I have never been asked for a copy of the card but rather they would show me that they had insurance as they run legitimate businesses.
I received the following email from Bill on the evening of the accident...
________________________________________________ ______________________________
From: Shadowman
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:01:49 -0700
To: Ray
Subject: RE: Shadowman
It remains my pleasure Ray
Thank you for the data points.
Your gal and I are about to embark on our "get to know each other"
adventure.
First a fuel stop ....... then a methodical cruise on the highway after
which I will bring her into boost and see how she responds while adjusting
the boost controller.
Takes care
Bill aka Shadowman
Welcome to Discovery Automotive High Performance Exotic Tuner for BMW ///M series, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, Ford GT.
________________________________________________ ____________________________
I went to bed that night about 2am with my final text message being one to Bill asking if he was ok... as I hadn't heard anything.
I woke up the next morning to an email from Bill stating that he had a small incident with the car, that he had been driving like a little old lady and the car had went off the road and down an embankment, and that he didn't know what had happened. He followed up with the facts of the towing company, the police report number and that he was hurting but ok and heading home and that we would talk later in the day.
Of course my first objective was to make sure he was ok when we were able to talk later that afternoon giving him time to rest a little. He stated that he was banged up a bit but fine, and that he had walked / crawled up the embankment, had been checked out by the hospital and that despite having a headache he was ok.
Since establishing that he was ok my next question was about the car and it's condition. This was when things started to get a little "shady"...
He got a little defensive stating that he didn't really know as he wasn't really in the mindset to pay much attention to it given the circumstances. I responded with asking some more details of the accident and that surely he had SOME idea of the condition and what happened to help me out 2000 miles away with some sort of picture of what the state of the car was left in. Again, he recounted his story that he was doing 65 mph down the hiway driving like a "little old lady", that all of sudden the car went right off the road, jumped a curb and slid down an embankment. He told me time and time again that there were no skid marks, nothing out of the ordinary had been going on and had no idea what happened.
He finished by saying that "he would be more worried about the possible damage done by the tow company pulling it up the embankment than the actual damage done by the accident"
While this made me feel much better about the condition of the car and that he was alright, I asked him if he had or could take any pictures to which he replied that he would "try and get to it that week IF he felt up to it" and that he would get back to me later in the week.
My next question to Bill was how are we going to handle this?
His response was that while he was sorry for the situation, it really was none of his responsibility and that was why he had asked for my insurance card.
This gave me great cause for concern at the lack of care given the situation and the somewhat shadowy story. I immediately called Shelby of Elite Autos and Alex Shen at SP Engineering to try and make a plan to see the car the next morning. Given the story I was unsure if it was something that we would want an insurance claim on and if it was as minor as Shadowman had relayed that we would figure out the damage and what it would take to repair it. It was decided that going to pick up Shelby would add a lot of time and that since Alex was already in Los Angeles it would be more efficient to have him go with me to look at the car and assess the damage.
I immediately flew to LA and stayed with Alex that night in preparation to be at the Towing Company as soon as they opened up the next morning. We discussed the situation and talked cars as I relayed Shadowman's version of the story and decided that it was probably not a big deal and would see in the morning.
Note that the incident was Saturday night and I arrived at the tow company Monday morning at 8am
When we arrived and signed in to see the car, the tow truck driver first asked where the "Pilot" was?? Kind of laughing at our confusion he said "you know, the driver, the pilot... flying through the air that far and that fast you have to call yourself a pilot!"...
gut sink in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....
Ray said:
As soon as we walked through the doors and he turned the light on I turned to Alex and apologized for wasting his time.
This is what we saw...
I can honestly say that I have never seen a GT in as bad of a wrecked condition as this car. We continued to talk to the tow truck driver to get a better picture of what had happened, where it happened etc.
He stated that he wasn't sure what had occurred except that the section of the road where it had happened is the "local drag strip" and is a 3 mile straight away where everyone "tests" their cars out... he told us that he would take us to the scene after we were done taking pictures.
I will follow this post up with additional pictures with more detail but in summary there wasn't a body panel left without damage and every frame support in the back was ripped apart. The transaxle was GONE having been exploded by impact into what appeared to be a tree gauging by the bark and sticks that had punched holes through the exhaust and even the turbo housing that was left on the car. The impact had sheared all the engine mounts and actually pushed the engine forward into the firewall.
A quick assessment of the driveline showed no apparent issues, tires looked good and intact, air bags never went off indicating the impact was from the rear a fact backed up by the visible damage.
There was a vacuum line blue taped from the engine bay to the outside of the car and in through the passenger window which was sitting on the seat indicating that he had been driving and monitoring the boost on that gauge... Alex being a Tuner himself first looked at me after seeing this and had a VERY puzzled look on his face as to the danger and method of trying to monitor boost in this manner....
Next stop - Crash site...
We followed the tow truck driver to the scene and tried to put back the pieces of the puzzle. It didn't take long.
Shadowman had told me that there were NO skid marks or anything and as such couldn't figure out what happened. That information was definitely inaccurate.
Coming around a wide sweeping right hand turn there was indeed a very long straight away section of road which the driver backed up by saying "this is the local drag strip where people test their cars"... He followed up by saying that the road was dry that night, there was no fog or moisture and nothing that would have made for weird driving conditions.
Bill had told me he was in the "slow" lane or inside lane and that was backed up by the multiple sets of skid marks on the pavement.
Where the road straightened out there were two long sets of black marks at the end of which was a small undulation in the hiway which when video was taken of the traffic going by, could see a definite settling of the suspension... Now I cannot say that these marks were in fact left by my car as Shadowman says that he was not speeding and was simply going in and out of boost in 3rd at 65 mph, driving like a "little old lady"...
Shortly there after, 150 ft or so was the marks on the pavement which were in the same lane and DEFINITELY left by my car as the back end came around and went sideways off the road through the gravel. It looked like it then hit a tree in the drivers door of about 18-24 inches in diameter and broke it off which appeared to have spun the car around so that when it left the road it was facing straight backwards.
It looked like it then flew through the air as the embankment dropped sharply and broke off another tree about 20 - 30FT off the ground, that was 60-70FT from the edge of the road.
Now the "Pilot" comment made sense. It looked like He had truly flown the car backwards through the air about 30 feet off the ground before impact a second tree hitting it directly dead center in the back of the car, exploding the transaxle, driving the engine forward into the firewall...
This sheared the tree in half which when the car dug into the ground ended up landing on the top of the car and rolling off to the side resting against the side of the car which was the final condition according to the tow driver.
He went on to say that they spent about 4 hours retrieving the car with multiple trucks to ensure that they did no damage to the car... I told him I appreciated that but given the condition of the car it truly wouldn't have made a difference.
We found blue and orange paint all over the tree, parts of the transmission 100 ft away from the tree and all kinds of engine parts scattered everywhere.
It was at this time that I had finally received a call from Bill asking what I was doing in California as I had left him some text messages and voicemail saying that we wanted to come by and talk, see if he was ok etc.
He told me he was at the shop and had been piddling around doing this and that and that "we come by I guess if you want to stick your head in and say hi"... it definitely did not sound like he was happy we were there.
We showed up and he greeted us at the gate and invited us in to the shop. In the process of conversation I told him that I was so glad he was ok, and that after seeing the car it was a miracle he was alive. I went on to say that given his explanation of the cars condition and what we saw, it was a little shocking as to the extent of the damage, that we had been to the crash sight etc and had a really good idea of what had happened but wanted to hear it from him.
He looked at me and said "Ray, I could tell you what really happened but I will never tell you what really happened, I can't..." which basically told me, this is my story and I am sticking to it.
He went on to explain that he is just a guy who operates out of his garage, and that he works on "gals" as a service to the community only and really is not set up as a proper business cause he doesn't think he has to. This despite having a H1 Alpha parked right beside us and a brand new Lamborghini SV LP670 he told me he really has NO money and can do nothing for me... That this situation was a miss aligning of the stars and just a moment of bad luck and that it was really not his responsibility. BUT he can help me out in other ways, working on my gals in the future for a discount etc...
HUH?
He then went on to beg me not to end his business with a bad report. That he was just a small guy trying to make ends meet and again had no money or ability to do anything. That he had NO business insurance (garage keepers etc) because it would be too expensive... and asked me what I was going to do....
I told him that bad situation or bad luck or whatever, as a business owner who portrays himself as such with his website, reports on the forum etc.. that I had TRUSTED him with the car and to do the right thing. That again, I was not mad, but rather glad that he was ok and while sad about the car, it was just a car, a thing, not exactly easy to replace after everything was done to it but still replaceable all the same.
I went on to say that how I handled it would completely depend on how he handled it. That as business owners we incur risk which is offset by the reward of charging and tweaking on over 35 "gals"... run the numbers on what he has done there for revenue on FGTs alone...
I explained that there is an unwritten code between exotic car owners that if you ever step behind the wheel of someone else's car, that you would be responsible for the car if something happened. That is the reason I don't drive someone elses car. Furthermore, when you send it to a BUSINESS specializing in tuning any high end cars, it is with the understanding that if something happens to it while under their care it would be taken care of no questions asked.
There are two instances that I know of where tuners destroyed cars on a test drive prior to this one, and in both cases the tuners took care of the situation, immediately bought the car from the owner and handled it on their end. That this is what I expected to happen and that was the right thing to do.
He left the conversation by saying that he simply could not do that, and felt that he really had no responsibility in the situation and basically, that I was on my own.
I asked him what would have happened if the car had went left instead of right and he had killed someone... should my business and family be at risk because of the way he was driving a car and taking on said responsibility...
Completely shocking, he responded that is the reason he gets copies of insurance cards and truly felt it was the owners responsibility solely..
I told him the ball was in his court and that I would leave it to him, that either he could do the right thing or not and that if he did the right thing, it would show the quality of business man and character he had, and that if he didn't it would tell the same.
and more..This is what we saw...
I can honestly say that I have never seen a GT in as bad of a wrecked condition as this car. We continued to talk to the tow truck driver to get a better picture of what had happened, where it happened etc.
He stated that he wasn't sure what had occurred except that the section of the road where it had happened is the "local drag strip" and is a 3 mile straight away where everyone "tests" their cars out... he told us that he would take us to the scene after we were done taking pictures.
I will follow this post up with additional pictures with more detail but in summary there wasn't a body panel left without damage and every frame support in the back was ripped apart. The transaxle was GONE having been exploded by impact into what appeared to be a tree gauging by the bark and sticks that had punched holes through the exhaust and even the turbo housing that was left on the car. The impact had sheared all the engine mounts and actually pushed the engine forward into the firewall.
A quick assessment of the driveline showed no apparent issues, tires looked good and intact, air bags never went off indicating the impact was from the rear a fact backed up by the visible damage.
There was a vacuum line blue taped from the engine bay to the outside of the car and in through the passenger window which was sitting on the seat indicating that he had been driving and monitoring the boost on that gauge... Alex being a Tuner himself first looked at me after seeing this and had a VERY puzzled look on his face as to the danger and method of trying to monitor boost in this manner....
Next stop - Crash site...
We followed the tow truck driver to the scene and tried to put back the pieces of the puzzle. It didn't take long.
Shadowman had told me that there were NO skid marks or anything and as such couldn't figure out what happened. That information was definitely inaccurate.
Coming around a wide sweeping right hand turn there was indeed a very long straight away section of road which the driver backed up by saying "this is the local drag strip where people test their cars"... He followed up by saying that the road was dry that night, there was no fog or moisture and nothing that would have made for weird driving conditions.
Bill had told me he was in the "slow" lane or inside lane and that was backed up by the multiple sets of skid marks on the pavement.
Where the road straightened out there were two long sets of black marks at the end of which was a small undulation in the hiway which when video was taken of the traffic going by, could see a definite settling of the suspension... Now I cannot say that these marks were in fact left by my car as Shadowman says that he was not speeding and was simply going in and out of boost in 3rd at 65 mph, driving like a "little old lady"...
Shortly there after, 150 ft or so was the marks on the pavement which were in the same lane and DEFINITELY left by my car as the back end came around and went sideways off the road through the gravel. It looked like it then hit a tree in the drivers door of about 18-24 inches in diameter and broke it off which appeared to have spun the car around so that when it left the road it was facing straight backwards.
It looked like it then flew through the air as the embankment dropped sharply and broke off another tree about 20 - 30FT off the ground, that was 60-70FT from the edge of the road.
Now the "Pilot" comment made sense. It looked like He had truly flown the car backwards through the air about 30 feet off the ground before impact a second tree hitting it directly dead center in the back of the car, exploding the transaxle, driving the engine forward into the firewall...
This sheared the tree in half which when the car dug into the ground ended up landing on the top of the car and rolling off to the side resting against the side of the car which was the final condition according to the tow driver.
He went on to say that they spent about 4 hours retrieving the car with multiple trucks to ensure that they did no damage to the car... I told him I appreciated that but given the condition of the car it truly wouldn't have made a difference.
We found blue and orange paint all over the tree, parts of the transmission 100 ft away from the tree and all kinds of engine parts scattered everywhere.
It was at this time that I had finally received a call from Bill asking what I was doing in California as I had left him some text messages and voicemail saying that we wanted to come by and talk, see if he was ok etc.
He told me he was at the shop and had been piddling around doing this and that and that "we come by I guess if you want to stick your head in and say hi"... it definitely did not sound like he was happy we were there.
We showed up and he greeted us at the gate and invited us in to the shop. In the process of conversation I told him that I was so glad he was ok, and that after seeing the car it was a miracle he was alive. I went on to say that given his explanation of the cars condition and what we saw, it was a little shocking as to the extent of the damage, that we had been to the crash sight etc and had a really good idea of what had happened but wanted to hear it from him.
He looked at me and said "Ray, I could tell you what really happened but I will never tell you what really happened, I can't..." which basically told me, this is my story and I am sticking to it.
He went on to explain that he is just a guy who operates out of his garage, and that he works on "gals" as a service to the community only and really is not set up as a proper business cause he doesn't think he has to. This despite having a H1 Alpha parked right beside us and a brand new Lamborghini SV LP670 he told me he really has NO money and can do nothing for me... That this situation was a miss aligning of the stars and just a moment of bad luck and that it was really not his responsibility. BUT he can help me out in other ways, working on my gals in the future for a discount etc...
HUH?
He then went on to beg me not to end his business with a bad report. That he was just a small guy trying to make ends meet and again had no money or ability to do anything. That he had NO business insurance (garage keepers etc) because it would be too expensive... and asked me what I was going to do....
I told him that bad situation or bad luck or whatever, as a business owner who portrays himself as such with his website, reports on the forum etc.. that I had TRUSTED him with the car and to do the right thing. That again, I was not mad, but rather glad that he was ok and while sad about the car, it was just a car, a thing, not exactly easy to replace after everything was done to it but still replaceable all the same.
I went on to say that how I handled it would completely depend on how he handled it. That as business owners we incur risk which is offset by the reward of charging and tweaking on over 35 "gals"... run the numbers on what he has done there for revenue on FGTs alone...
I explained that there is an unwritten code between exotic car owners that if you ever step behind the wheel of someone else's car, that you would be responsible for the car if something happened. That is the reason I don't drive someone elses car. Furthermore, when you send it to a BUSINESS specializing in tuning any high end cars, it is with the understanding that if something happens to it while under their care it would be taken care of no questions asked.
There are two instances that I know of where tuners destroyed cars on a test drive prior to this one, and in both cases the tuners took care of the situation, immediately bought the car from the owner and handled it on their end. That this is what I expected to happen and that was the right thing to do.
He left the conversation by saying that he simply could not do that, and felt that he really had no responsibility in the situation and basically, that I was on my own.
I asked him what would have happened if the car had went left instead of right and he had killed someone... should my business and family be at risk because of the way he was driving a car and taking on said responsibility...
Completely shocking, he responded that is the reason he gets copies of insurance cards and truly felt it was the owners responsibility solely..
I told him the ball was in his court and that I would leave it to him, that either he could do the right thing or not and that if he did the right thing, it would show the quality of business man and character he had, and that if he didn't it would tell the same.
Ray said:
He called back a couple of days later to say that he had thought about the situation and in an attempt to "Do the right thing" had submitted a claim on his personal homeowners policy through State Farm, and to expect a call.
At this point in time we had already been talking to Michelle at Classic to explain the situation and ask for advice on how to handle it. When I received the call from the State Farm rep on behalf of Shadowman I knew right away that the situation was not going to be good. She asked several questions on the sequence of events and said that the next step was to contact my insurance carrier.
In talking with Michelle after the conversation she had with State Farm, the situation was basically that State Farm would look at the claim only after my insurance would have to deny the claim, and that the chances after denying the claim and leaving it to State Farm of being approved were very slim.
It was at this time that we decided we had no other choice but to bite the bullet, and take care of this ourselves.
We talked to Bill and he said that he was confused as his personal policy had said they would put a claim in but that was all he was willing to do.
End result was basically we were left to pick up all the pieces and Michelle and Classic insurance did their job going above and beyond. They handled everything promptly and worked very hard despite a lower agreed value on the car to make me "whole"...
I consigned myself to learning from this experience, dealing with the possible rate increases in the future for having a total loss on a policy with numerous cars on my insurance, and keeping it quiet before the rally still not pressuring Bill and leaving it up to him as he promised to make it "right"
Then, two days ago, Michelle calls me quite upset at the fact that Bill was now submitting a claim for personal health costs etc against my insurance.
We contacted Bill to basically say this was not only adding insult to injury and added expense to my insurance but that this was definitely not being done in good faith as he promised.
It was at that time that I gave him an ultimatum to do the right thing, make up the much lower amount of difference to make the situation whole on the car, that I would eat future increases in costs etc and definitely expected him not to put another claim against my insurance for a situation he created...
He relayed by phone to my wife that it was never his intention to jerk us around, that he would try and do the right thing and that he understood that he had put us in a horrible situation.
That was yesterday, and judging by his post we will be waiting for him to do the right thing....
I hope he does, as many of us would do if the situation was reversed.
In summary though, it is a lesson learned when sending your car to anyone, no matter what their reputation, business setup or whatever to make sure you are properly covered in case of a bad situation.
At this point in time we had already been talking to Michelle at Classic to explain the situation and ask for advice on how to handle it. When I received the call from the State Farm rep on behalf of Shadowman I knew right away that the situation was not going to be good. She asked several questions on the sequence of events and said that the next step was to contact my insurance carrier.
In talking with Michelle after the conversation she had with State Farm, the situation was basically that State Farm would look at the claim only after my insurance would have to deny the claim, and that the chances after denying the claim and leaving it to State Farm of being approved were very slim.
It was at this time that we decided we had no other choice but to bite the bullet, and take care of this ourselves.
We talked to Bill and he said that he was confused as his personal policy had said they would put a claim in but that was all he was willing to do.
End result was basically we were left to pick up all the pieces and Michelle and Classic insurance did their job going above and beyond. They handled everything promptly and worked very hard despite a lower agreed value on the car to make me "whole"...
I consigned myself to learning from this experience, dealing with the possible rate increases in the future for having a total loss on a policy with numerous cars on my insurance, and keeping it quiet before the rally still not pressuring Bill and leaving it up to him as he promised to make it "right"
Then, two days ago, Michelle calls me quite upset at the fact that Bill was now submitting a claim for personal health costs etc against my insurance.
We contacted Bill to basically say this was not only adding insult to injury and added expense to my insurance but that this was definitely not being done in good faith as he promised.
It was at that time that I gave him an ultimatum to do the right thing, make up the much lower amount of difference to make the situation whole on the car, that I would eat future increases in costs etc and definitely expected him not to put another claim against my insurance for a situation he created...
He relayed by phone to my wife that it was never his intention to jerk us around, that he would try and do the right thing and that he understood that he had put us in a horrible situation.
That was yesterday, and judging by his post we will be waiting for him to do the right thing....
I hope he does, as many of us would do if the situation was reversed.
In summary though, it is a lesson learned when sending your car to anyone, no matter what their reputation, business setup or whatever to make sure you are properly covered in case of a bad situation.
Edited by TankRizzo on Wednesday 20th October 23:26
.Doesn't he have grounds for a lawsuit of some kind? It is America after all...
Either way, by the sounds of things "Bill" got a little carried away on the gas or massively increased the boost while he was fiddling around with that boost gauge he had taped into the car. I wouldn't have been able to remain calm as the owner, Bill would be claiming against me for having to get that boost gauge surgically removed from his arse!
Either way, by the sounds of things "Bill" got a little carried away on the gas or massively increased the boost while he was fiddling around with that boost gauge he had taped into the car. I wouldn't have been able to remain calm as the owner, Bill would be claiming against me for having to get that boost gauge surgically removed from his arse!
I think car insurance works differently in America - its the car and not the owner that is insured, so the driver at the time of the accident is now trying to claim off the owner's insurance!
Still no excuse for a tuner not having his own liability insurance though - for some reason a lot of guys on the GT Forum are still supporting the tuner, and promising him their car to work on/drive!
Insane!
Still no excuse for a tuner not having his own liability insurance though - for some reason a lot of guys on the GT Forum are still supporting the tuner, and promising him their car to work on/drive!
Insane!
TankRizzo said:
Ouch...this was posted on another forum I frequent.
A car cutting a tree in half? Autoblog said:
This sheared the tree in half which when the car dug into the ground ended up landing on the top of the car and rolling off to the side resting against the side of the car which was the final condition according to the tow driver.
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