Carbon Fibre, when will it become mainstream??
Discussion
I was thinking the other day how close my car is to the rally Imprezas of the early 90's in terms of techknowledgy and it got me wondering. Most things on a car these days have some development links to motorsport gone by such as ABS, AWD, LSD etc etc. So this got me wondering when, if ever, carbon fibre will become a common product on the next Polo or KA.
At the moment it is expensive to create as it is, as far as i am aware, largely hand built. Could this process be made cheaper with large automated production or is it just not possible? Are the raw ingredients in carbon fibre expensive to purchase or difficult to source? Is there an environmental factor that could put the brakes on?
I really cant see any good reason as it stands for it not becoming common practice to use it on standard cars. Imagine the fuel saving you would get if the average Polo/KA had a carbon body, and none of the usual common Ford rusting either.
I look forward to it happening if it ever does!!
At the moment it is expensive to create as it is, as far as i am aware, largely hand built. Could this process be made cheaper with large automated production or is it just not possible? Are the raw ingredients in carbon fibre expensive to purchase or difficult to source? Is there an environmental factor that could put the brakes on?
I really cant see any good reason as it stands for it not becoming common practice to use it on standard cars. Imagine the fuel saving you would get if the average Polo/KA had a carbon body, and none of the usual common Ford rusting either.
I look forward to it happening if it ever does!!
Aside from the expense, it brings with it other problems - it can't really be recycled for example (a big deal these days). Repairs can be awkward and more costly too.
The recent Lamborghini Sesto Elemento concept shows it's something that's moving closer to production though, if only on high-end supercars.
The recent Lamborghini Sesto Elemento concept shows it's something that's moving closer to production though, if only on high-end supercars.
Edited by Risotto on Monday 25th October 14:51
Once upon a time Aluminum was only found in supercars, now it's mainstream. It will happen eventually, but it will be a few years off and it will be a different type of CF which will be developed specifically with mass-production in mind.
No idea how the recycling issue will be overcome, although there is the fact that it doesn't degrade over time. Perhaps the recycling could be negated by non needing to replace it in the first place somehow.
No idea how the recycling issue will be overcome, although there is the fact that it doesn't degrade over time. Perhaps the recycling could be negated by non needing to replace it in the first place somehow.
I'll add a bit of conjecture, although I'm not a structural engineer so I doubt my knowledge is particularly up to date.
I would have thought that the lack of recyclability itself isn't really an issue as the elements are potentially available at lower energy cost than metals (i.e. you don't need a s
t load of heat or electricity to make it usable). What is an issue is that, at the moment, those elements are sourced from dino juice for practicality.
The crashability issue could be solved by using replaceable sub structures, although IMHO this is an overstated issue as modern metal construction is still vulnerable to write off in relatively minor accidents. It could even be argued that a carbon shell would be better as it's less liable to becoming permanently deformed in an accident having done its job, allowing damage to be confined to the replaceable structures.
There are concerns about repeated impacts, but as far as I'm aware the vulnerability is at join points rather than in the main structure of the material itself.
The biggest issue at the moment does seem to be the fact that it needs to be hand laid and formed which isn't suited to mass manufacture for obvious reasons.
I would have thought that the lack of recyclability itself isn't really an issue as the elements are potentially available at lower energy cost than metals (i.e. you don't need a s
t load of heat or electricity to make it usable). What is an issue is that, at the moment, those elements are sourced from dino juice for practicality.The crashability issue could be solved by using replaceable sub structures, although IMHO this is an overstated issue as modern metal construction is still vulnerable to write off in relatively minor accidents. It could even be argued that a carbon shell would be better as it's less liable to becoming permanently deformed in an accident having done its job, allowing damage to be confined to the replaceable structures.
There are concerns about repeated impacts, but as far as I'm aware the vulnerability is at join points rather than in the main structure of the material itself.
The biggest issue at the moment does seem to be the fact that it needs to be hand laid and formed which isn't suited to mass manufacture for obvious reasons.
Edited by The Wookie on Monday 25th October 15:02
I can see it happening, but not for a very long time yet...
I think there are other, cheaper alternatives out there that can be used in order to save weight.
The French manufacturers have been using plastic wings, doors etc for a while now, and I recently read a story about Mazda being comitted to weight reduction in order to reduce emissions, by using more high strength steel in their car bodies (same stength, but less of it required)
As others have said, I think it's not neccesarily the cost that's an issue (although it obviously plays a part) but more to do with the complexity of repairing it after it has been damaged, and how it can be recycled
I think there are other, cheaper alternatives out there that can be used in order to save weight.
The French manufacturers have been using plastic wings, doors etc for a while now, and I recently read a story about Mazda being comitted to weight reduction in order to reduce emissions, by using more high strength steel in their car bodies (same stength, but less of it required)
As others have said, I think it's not neccesarily the cost that's an issue (although it obviously plays a part) but more to do with the complexity of repairing it after it has been damaged, and how it can be recycled
Superhoop said:
I can see it happening, but not for a very long time yet...
I think there are other, cheaper alternatives out there that can be used in order to save weight.
The French manufacturers have been using plastic wings, doors etc for a while now, and I recently read a story about Mazda being comitted to weight reduction in order to reduce emissions, by using more high strength steel in their car bodies (same stength, but less of it required)
As others have said, I think it's not neccesarily the cost that's an issue (although it obviously plays a part) but more to do with the complexity of repairing it after it has been damaged, and how it can be recycled
I see what you are saying, but since when have the manufacturers cared about how easy a car is to repair, its not a concern to them. These days they are designed to disintigrate and once they are sold they are sold. the recycling issue is one i hadnt considered. Can it not be reduced back to its original elements then?I think there are other, cheaper alternatives out there that can be used in order to save weight.
The French manufacturers have been using plastic wings, doors etc for a while now, and I recently read a story about Mazda being comitted to weight reduction in order to reduce emissions, by using more high strength steel in their car bodies (same stength, but less of it required)
As others have said, I think it's not neccesarily the cost that's an issue (although it obviously plays a part) but more to do with the complexity of repairing it after it has been damaged, and how it can be recycled
I would still imagine the benfits out weighing the costs in terms of environmental production costs, reduced emissions etc.
As said, CF panels/parts take a long time to make. Steel/Ali panels parts are stamped out - BANG.
Injection moulding hasn't yet had it's time in the spotlight IMO. That can be achieved at fairly rapid manufacturing rates. It's not as strong as CF but the majority of panel repairs are superficial. ABS plastics spring back from supermarket car park dings so as soon as styling catches up to tolerate this look or the process improves to make it look shiney (paints become flexible enough to apply and not chip off when the panel bends) you can expcet them to start using plastics more.
Injection moulding hasn't yet had it's time in the spotlight IMO. That can be achieved at fairly rapid manufacturing rates. It's not as strong as CF but the majority of panel repairs are superficial. ABS plastics spring back from supermarket car park dings so as soon as styling catches up to tolerate this look or the process improves to make it look shiney (paints become flexible enough to apply and not chip off when the panel bends) you can expcet them to start using plastics more.
james_gt3rs said:
thinfourth2 said:
Why bother
The bodyshell outlasts the electronics/running gear/fashion these days
Because it's stronger and lighter.The bodyshell outlasts the electronics/running gear/fashion these days
I would love carbonfibre to become mainstream but i'd prefer car manufactuers to adopt the mindset that would bring carbon fibre instead of HUGE heavy cars
Other materials and technologies may offer more cost effective weight savings than CF bodywork
http://www.inrekor.com/
http://www.inrekor.com/
Thing is, you don't really need carbon fibre in your average car.
Hemp fibre, reinforcing a biodegradable resin, will provide all the weight saving, recyclability, and cost issues.
Just need to figure out a way to cheaply produce it, manufacture the panels, and coat them in a pretty way....
However, that's just one example I have seen, no doubt there are plenty more being looked at (bamboo being one alternative natural fibre).
The real benefits of carbon fibre come from structural uses - replacing high strength metals with a lighter structure that is just as strong.
Also, the ability to tailor a parts properties by orienting the fibres to proivde stiffness where stiffness is required, and flexibility where flexibility is required, although this is also available with other composites, but at lower thresholds for a given part weight.
Saying that, I could see in the future relatively cheap suspension units being made from flexible carbon wishbones, where the spring material is also the damper....
Hemp fibre, reinforcing a biodegradable resin, will provide all the weight saving, recyclability, and cost issues.
Just need to figure out a way to cheaply produce it, manufacture the panels, and coat them in a pretty way....
However, that's just one example I have seen, no doubt there are plenty more being looked at (bamboo being one alternative natural fibre).
The real benefits of carbon fibre come from structural uses - replacing high strength metals with a lighter structure that is just as strong.
Also, the ability to tailor a parts properties by orienting the fibres to proivde stiffness where stiffness is required, and flexibility where flexibility is required, although this is also available with other composites, but at lower thresholds for a given part weight.
Saying that, I could see in the future relatively cheap suspension units being made from flexible carbon wishbones, where the spring material is also the damper....
Sway said:
...I could see in the future relatively cheap suspension units being made from flexible carbon wishbones, where the spring material is also the damper....
How would that work? Carbon fibre isn't self damping?In theory, you could design the wishbones to flex in one plane and so act as springs but I can't see how they'd also be made to work as dampers... and in practice the risk of structural failure would probably deter most manufacturers from combining the spring and location functions on a road car.
Carbon fibre is a pain in the backside and not the material everyone thinks. A couple of things:
a) it's a nasty material and requires more fussy health/safety than is required with metallic parts.
b) the resins are nasty too and also require more fussy h&s.
c) manufacturing tolerances are generally not very easy to get right (or not quite as easy as with metals).
d) interfacing with metallic parts is a pain as specialist tooling is required for drilling and often joins need a lot of prepping to arrive at a structurally sound joint.
e) although fantastically stiff is also brittle and can be damaged relatively easily (I'm assuming body panels would be extremely thin hence magnifying the issue). Door dings would potentially mean patch repairs which would look unsightly.
I'm sure there are many other issues but overall I reckon the cons far outweigh the pro's when there are so many other alternatives.
Personally I'd say CF is more useful for things like bonnets/boots/roofs but is still an extreme route to mass saving IMO.
a) it's a nasty material and requires more fussy health/safety than is required with metallic parts.
b) the resins are nasty too and also require more fussy h&s.
c) manufacturing tolerances are generally not very easy to get right (or not quite as easy as with metals).
d) interfacing with metallic parts is a pain as specialist tooling is required for drilling and often joins need a lot of prepping to arrive at a structurally sound joint.
e) although fantastically stiff is also brittle and can be damaged relatively easily (I'm assuming body panels would be extremely thin hence magnifying the issue). Door dings would potentially mean patch repairs which would look unsightly.
I'm sure there are many other issues but overall I reckon the cons far outweigh the pro's when there are so many other alternatives.
Personally I'd say CF is more useful for things like bonnets/boots/roofs but is still an extreme route to mass saving IMO.
Sam_68 said:
Sway said:
...I could see in the future relatively cheap suspension units being made from flexible carbon wishbones, where the spring material is also the damper....
How would that work? Carbon fibre isn't self damping?In theory, you could design the wishbones to flex in one plane and so act as springs but I can't see how they'd also be made to work as dampers... and in practice the risk of structural failure would probably deter most manufacturers from combining the spring and location functions on a road car.
Or seperate flex characteristics top and bottom of the wishbone, so the internal forces act as a controlling factor?
I dunno, that bit of my post was thought up as I was typing!
Sorry if it's complete nonsense!
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