Discussion
IRB Developments have been promising a TDV6 and TDV8 in a Defender for ages. JE are starting to fit the TDV6 in the Defender but the problem is the supply of engines apparently. The other problem is cost. It's over £20k!!!
There are many people who will put an auto box in a Defender for you.
There are many people who will put an auto box in a Defender for you.
loveice said:
I was just wondering if LR will ever produce a latest TDV8 powered defender with a auto gearbox. Maybe as a final edition when the production ends in 2 years time? I know I'll be the first one to pay the deposit.
No chance, lets face it, they spent money fitting the 2.4 TDCI engine instead of the TDV6, despite the 2.4 being massively underpowered compared to rivals.There are several reasons why I don't believe you'll ever see a factory Defender with even modest power:
- Political. The Defender is light compared to other LR products. Give it power and it'll be much faster (straight line) and have a much better power to weight ration. Remember a pick up 90 could weigh over a tonnes less than an RRS or D3/4.
LR have proven this in the past. 200Tdi in the Defender = less HP than Disco or RR. The V8 was dropped and never replaced in the Defender. And the TD5, only 122hp in the Defender with a crap tune compared to the 134hp for the Disco II.
- Axles. Defender diffs and half shafts can break with even a stock Tdi engine. Huge torque from a TDV8 would annihilate them. And at present LR seem uninteresting in improving these. Remember the basic Defender axle (and that of a D2) hail from a 1940's Rover!
- Cost. Partly related to the axles, but the Defender currently seems doomed and LR appear to have no interest in this sector of the market any longer, so I doubt they'll spend money on a model that doesn't appear to have much shelf life left.
Why bother though? It'll cost a fortune and there is a stage with a Defender when the handling just becomes dangerous with too much power. My Puma has 180bhp and I find it is just right. I can't imagine what a JE Zulu is like. It must be utterly terrifying even with suspension modifications. Fair enough if you want something relatively unique though.
Nappler said:
Are they going to replace the Defender with a new version or is it getting scrapped completly?, would be a shame if it was.
Sadly I've seen no indication from LR in recent times to pursue the utilitarian, military or agricultural 4x4. More blinged up RR, RRS and D4 and the new Evoque seem the focus 
The Defender name holds quite a status in the USA however, so I suspect a Disco 4 or similar "life style" type of SUV is far more likely.
LRO has the odd article on the Defender's replacement, which apparently will have the 'Defender' name, and come in 90, 110 and 130in wheelbases. A modified coil sprung D3/4/RRS chassis was mooted as the underpinnings.
Personally, while I like the idea of a TDV8 auto 'fender, I doubt there would be enough interest for LR to put it into production. Get a 90 with a tuned TD5 and an autobox/transfer box from a Disco II, wide-angle HD propshafts, KAM diffs, CV's & halfshafts with decent A/T tyres, and you'll have a Defender that'll go almost anywhere off road, and be quick enough on the road.
Personally, while I like the idea of a TDV8 auto 'fender, I doubt there would be enough interest for LR to put it into production. Get a 90 with a tuned TD5 and an autobox/transfer box from a Disco II, wide-angle HD propshafts, KAM diffs, CV's & halfshafts with decent A/T tyres, and you'll have a Defender that'll go almost anywhere off road, and be quick enough on the road.
GTO Scott said:
LRO has the odd article on the Defender's replacement, which apparently will have the 'Defender' name, and come in 90, 110 and 130in wheelbases. A modified coil sprung D3/4/RRS chassis was mooted as the underpinnings.
Personally, while I like the idea of a TDV8 auto 'fender, I doubt there would be enough interest for LR to put it into production. Get a 90 with a tuned TD5 and an autobox/transfer box from a Disco II, wide-angle HD propshafts, KAM diffs, CV's & halfshafts with decent A/T tyres, and you'll have a Defender that'll go almost anywhere off road, and be quick enough on the road.
But there's a huge difference there.Personally, while I like the idea of a TDV8 auto 'fender, I doubt there would be enough interest for LR to put it into production. Get a 90 with a tuned TD5 and an autobox/transfer box from a Disco II, wide-angle HD propshafts, KAM diffs, CV's & halfshafts with decent A/T tyres, and you'll have a Defender that'll go almost anywhere off road, and be quick enough on the road.
As in Land Rover also don't sell the latter vehicle you've just mentioned. If you want new or under warranty it's not an option. And lets face it, to do all the mods you've just listed are going to cost £1000's, its not as if it's a single one time cost for one part.
Not saying a TDV8 is the full answer, but there is still a huge market. Lets face it the Defender isn't type approved for the US, yet Jeep sell s
t loads of Wranglers.Australia would be another good potential market too.
The Td5 or the 2.4TDCI are way under powered.
What LR should have done was knicked the Ford F150 chassis and axles. They could have made a variety of wheelbases, Land Roverfy them for more off roady use. And a new body that meets current type approval regs.
They should then have offered it with the TDV6 as a base Euro engine and used a 3.5 Jaguar AJV8 as the base US engine and optional in all other markets.
Aircon, electric windows, cruise, auto and rear diff locker should all be standard.
300bhp/ton said:
As in Land Rover also don't sell the latter vehicle you've just mentioned. If you want new or under warranty it's not an option. And lets face it, to do all the mods you've just listed are going to cost £1000's, its not as if it's a single one time cost for one part.
But compared to a TDV8-engined Defender? Start with a knackered 90 (there's one in this month's LRO for just £250 - sans engine and gearbox), buy a galvanised chassis and bulkhead and reuse the rest of the body as required. You'd end up with a Defender that is tougher, stronger, quicker and longer-lasting than what Land Rover can supply.300bhp/ton said:
Not saying a TDV8 is the full answer, but there is still a huge market. Lets face it the Defender isn't type approved for the US, yet Jeep sell st loads of Wranglers.
Australia would be another good potential market too.
LR did sell the NAS-spec 90 in the USA - presumably it didn't evolve with changing legislation over there? t loads of Wranglers.Australia would be another good potential market too.
Australia love their Jap 4x4's & home-grown utes - LR really need something that won't just compete with, but beat the established big sellers like the L200/Hilux etc into a cocked hat if they want to break that market.
300bhp/ton said:
The Td5 or the 2.4TDCI are way under powered.
Given that no Defender is ever bought new for their 0-62 or top speed, does it make sense for LR to make a quick one? There are those of us who would like more 'go', but thats what companies like JE, Bell and TD5Alive exist to cater for. I don't know about the TDCi but the TD5 can be made to go very well indeed - as can the 200 and 300Tdi's.300bhp/ton said:
What LR should have done was knicked the Ford F150 chassis and axles. They could have made a variety of wheelbases, Land Roverfy them for more off roady use. And a new body that meets current type approval regs.
Nothing wrong with the standard chassis. In one form or another it has lasted 62 years and counting, or if you want to be picky the coil-sprung version has been around since the first Velar prototypes hit the road in the late '60's. I'll agree the axles aren't great - a chap I used to see off-roading a 200Tdi Disco would have either a diff or halfshaft (usually rear) go almost every time he went out, though he did give his motor some serious abuse. Mind you I never broke anything in the 90 or the 200Tdi Disco that I had (admittedly the Disco was a last of the line 200 and had 300Tdi 24-spline axles from the factory).
300bhp/ton said:
They should then have offered it with the TDV6 as a base Euro engine and used a 3.5 Jaguar AJV8 as the base US engine and optional in all other markets.
Aircon, electric windows, cruise, auto and rear diff locker should all be standard.
Why the big engines? Your average farmer or commercial user (Defender's main customers) wants something economical and reliable - TDV6 isn't quite as good on fuel as a TDCi, though I imagine some 130" customers wouldn't mind being able to spec a bigger engine. Same with the gearbox - most commercial users would prefer a manual (though an auto option would make a lot of sense). A rear diff-lock would be nice, but it's just not essential. How many other 4x4's come with rear lockers? A fair few don't even have centre diff-lock.Aircon, electric windows, cruise, auto and rear diff locker should all be standard.
I suppose that's the current Defender's biggest strength though - Land Rover provide the basic vehicle, and you simply add what you want - all of your requirements can easily be retro-fitted to just about any Defender.
people are also forgetting that just because it isn't in the brochure doesn't mean it can't be obtained in a new vehicle from LRSV ...
i'm not sure how much of an appetite there is for hugely powerful Defenders as a restrictor plate less V8 or 300tdi 130 Ambi is pretty scary and fast enough to keep up in ordinary traffic ( even with a 23 ft FAP trailer on the back)
i'm not sure how much of an appetite there is for hugely powerful Defenders as a restrictor plate less V8 or 300tdi 130 Ambi is pretty scary and fast enough to keep up in ordinary traffic ( even with a 23 ft FAP trailer on the back)
Bish said:
JE Engineering now have stand alone ECUs for TDV6 and TDV8 engines and have built a TDV6, the Saluki. As I understands the TDV8 will follow shortly.
Yup. The Saluki is £28k for 240bhp!! You've got to be kidding when their Stage 2 Puma is £1k for 180bhp. I went for the Stage 2.300bhp/ton said:
Nappler said:
Are they going to replace the Defender with a new version or is it getting scrapped completly?, would be a shame if it was.
Sadly I've seen no indication from LR in recent times to pursue the utilitarian, military or agricultural 4x4. More blinged up RR, RRS and D4 and the new Evoque seem the focus The Defender name holds quite a status in the USA however, so I suspect a Disco 4 or similar "life style" type of SUV is far more likely.
This will exempt it from pedestrian safety standards being applied to passenger cars.
http://www.landmania.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12...
GTO Scott said:
300bhp/ton said:
As in Land Rover also don't sell the latter vehicle you've just mentioned. If you want new or under warranty it's not an option. And lets face it, to do all the mods you've just listed are going to cost £1000's, its not as if it's a single one time cost for one part.
But compared to a TDV8-engined Defender? Start with a knackered 90 (there's one in this month's LRO for just £250 - sans engine and gearbox), buy a galvanised chassis and bulkhead and reuse the rest of the body as required. You'd end up with a Defender that is tougher, stronger, quicker and longer-lasting than what Land Rover can supply.-It's not new and won't have a warranty
-It's not off the shelf, so you can't drive it soon
-It isn't as simple as it sounds. If you can't do the work, you'll need to find someone to do it. And then you'll need to know or research which bits to use.
Don't think I'm disagreeing I'm not
And if you knew my LR history and current projects you'd understand why. Just saying that for a lot of people, custom building a 90 is not an option they'd consider. 
GTO Scott said:
300bhp/ton said:
Not saying a TDV8 is the full answer, but there is still a huge market. Lets face it the Defender isn't type approved for the US, yet Jeep sell st loads of Wranglers.
Australia would be another good potential market too.
LR did sell the NAS-spec 90 in the USA - presumably it didn't evolve with changing legislation over there? t loads of Wranglers.Australia would be another good potential market too.
Also when you compare to the Wrangler, the Wrangler easily supersedes the Defender in every respect for the US market.
GTO Scott said:
Australia love their Jap 4x4's & home-grown utes - LR really need something that won't just compete with, but beat the established big sellers like the L200/Hilux etc into a cocked hat if they want to break that market.
The thing to remember is, Land Rover once had 90-95% of the 4x4 and utility market in Australia. They lost it by being complacent.In fairness it was probably the Series III that truly started the down fall. The market wanted more power, better reliability, larger fuel tanks (for longer range) and stronger components. The Series III offered none of these over the Series II.
Even the Ninety offered very little in these terms. Just look at the market today, nearly all over trucks are available with bigger diesel engines, Vee diesel engines and petrol Vee alternatives. Land Rover's are the slowest least powerful, with small fuel tanks and weak axles. As a Land Rover fan it hurts to say that
but it's the truth!!! GTO Scott said:
300bhp/ton said:
The Td5 or the 2.4TDCI are way under powered.
Given that no Defender is ever bought new for their 0-62 or top speed, does it make sense for LR to make a quick one?And reference to my comment above, look at all the other trucks - they are all without exception more powerful than a Defender. A 2.8CRD Wrangler makes more power, more torque, is faster and has better mpg.
So while I agree people may not buy these for race car like abilities, it doesn't mean performance and power have no bearing on it.
GTO Scott said:
There are those of us who would like more 'go', but thats what companies like JE, Bell and TD5Alive exist to cater for.
See above.And also remember that mods will invalidate a warranty and cost money. I'm not denying the abilities, I'm just saying....
GTO Scott said:
I don't know about the TDCi but the TD5 can be made to go very well indeed - as can the 200 and 300Tdi's.
indeed GTO Scott said:
300bhp/ton said:
What LR should have done was knicked the Ford F150 chassis and axles. They could have made a variety of wheelbases, Land Roverfy them for more off roady use. And a new body that meets current type approval regs.
Nothing wrong with the standard chassis.A new Hydroformed chassis would also be stronger and likely lighter.
GTO Scott said:
In one form or another it has lasted 62 years and counting
See above, I think that's the problem GTO Scott said:
I'll agree the axles aren't great - a chap I used to see off-roading a 200Tdi Disco would have either a diff or halfshaft (usually rear) go almost every time he went out, though he did give his motor some serious abuse. Mind you I never broke anything in the 90 or the 200Tdi Disco that I had (admittedly the Disco was a last of the line 200 and had 300Tdi 24-spline axles from the factory).
I've done a diff and in trialling they are not a rarity to see a diff or a half shaft bust seen it loads of times.For a stock Ninety on original 205 tyres, the axles are ok. But chuck some 33-35" aggressive mud tyres on and it's a whole different story. Even more in places like the West Coast of the USA where high grip rock crawling is the norm.
Remember most bigger trucks do have tough axles. The YJ/TJ Wranglers less so, but the Dana 35 was still at least as stout if not a bit better. But the Current JK Wrangler uses Dana 44 axles. You could reasonably expect to run 35" mud tyres and give them one hell of abuse and the axles would be fine.
But the failing comes with more power. LR know this. In fact if you trace the history LR knew this with the Series II, hence the Series III didn't have any more power. When they finally realised they needed to make more powerful vehicles they decided on full time 4wd as it reduced stress on the weak axles. It was simply cheaper to develop the LT230 than it was to sort the axles out.
GTO Scott said:
300bhp/ton said:
They should then have offered it with the TDV6 as a base Euro engine and used a 3.5 Jaguar AJV8 as the base US engine and optional in all other markets.
Aircon, electric windows, cruise, auto and rear diff locker should all be standard.
Why the big engines? Your average farmer or commercial user (Defender's main customers) wants something economical and reliable - TDV6 isn't quite as good on fuel as a TDCiAircon, electric windows, cruise, auto and rear diff locker should all be standard.
As for mpg. Well a 2.7 tonne Disco 3 will return as good or better mpg than a 2.4TDCi 90 weighing upto a tonne less. I reckon a TDV6 Ninety would easily be more real world economical than the current 4 cylinder offering. I say this currently owning a 200Tdi that is fully capable of averaging 19mpg....
GTO Scott said:
though I imagine some 130" customers wouldn't mind being able to spec a bigger engine. Same with the gearbox - most commercial users would prefer a manual (though an auto option would make a lot of sense).
I suspect it depends. Auto's are a popular conversion in the aftermarket, so again I think it proves the market exists. There is a bit of a stick in the mud view in the UK that manual is best.... but I think that largely extends from the fact you couldn't buy an auto Defender or Series. More pulp fiction and urban myth than any factual reason.GTO Scott said:
A rear diff-lock would be nice, but it's just not essential.
Depends on what you want to do with it. But it's not even optional from LR.GTO Scott said:
How many other 4x4's come with rear lockers?
Quite a few TBH. In fact most if not all have it either as standard, option or have a rear LSD if not. I'm not talking flashed up SUV's, I'm meaning proper 4x4 work trucks and off roaders.GTO Scott said:
A fair few don't even have centre diff-lock.
Such as??To be fair most that don't have 2wd and 4wd. The 4wd mode locks the front and rear drivetrain. This is what CDL does. It offers nothing extra off road, all it allows is full time 4wd on tarmac.
GTO Scott said:
I suppose that's the current Defender's biggest strength though - Land Rover provide the basic vehicle, and you simply add what you want - all of your requirements can easily be retro-fitted to just about any Defender.
I agree, but that's not the point. And not when some of them are fundamental floors in the design.I mean, just for fun, have you actually added up how much it'd cost to buy a new Defender, add some more power, beef up the axles, add a rear locker and a few other bits?
There's an easy £5-10k in mods (not including fitting) on top a vehicle that is already the most expensive in it's market segment.
300bhp/ton said:
Stuff.
Cost not complacency. That's the problem.Landrover has been blessed with silly management decisions and zero money for much of it's history and even the Series models were dragged kicking and screaming (via the lovely Stage 1) into 90 and 110 form, later Defender. They stuck with the original formula because they had no money to do anything else and at that time the vehicle was selling.
Discovery was a big step in terms of packaging and I believe halted an all new defender although the new kid looked very familiar under the skin
It was chance worth taking due to the impending Jap domination of the 4x4 market.A pile of BMW money brought along the P38 Rangie (and 1st of the LR322) and the new Freelander and some revisions to the Disco. Why they still persisted with the buick/Rover V8 at that time is a mystery to me when BMW made some of their own fine V8's. Defender remained more or less the same - Freelander had soaked up all the money. BMW then buggered off with the know-how and brought out the X5.
See a pattern emerging?
A pile of Ford money lead to the new Disco, LR322 revisions, new Freelander. LR pinch a Transit engine to keep the Defender on the road.
Certainly the original LR has alot of charm and the shape has lasted for 60 years but lets face it. The Military market is gone, export markets prefer Toyotas due the better reliability and only a dedicated few are in the market for an overpriced utility vehicle which marginal comfort, build quality and reliability.
'If' the Defender is to move on they will probably go on the cheap and reskin a Disco 3. They'll use that heavy oversized chassis, the TDV6 etc and a 'retro' body. An Icon will be lost I think.
Gassing Station | Land Rover | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff