This might finally open the can of worms...

[fergywales]

http://tinyurl.com/2emfxr5

Sour grapes?

[wicked fish]

knowing what i know about this, ( and i had a long conversation with Will last night as well as some others involved)
I definatly wouldnt get involved in this, or disguss it on an unimformed public forum, If you have any informed comments or any usefull imput then post on ITA.com,
no its not sour grapes,

Edited by wicked fish on Thursday 4th November 11:44

[BennettRacing]

Tricky one.

Agree with your post on ITA too Graham.

[fergywales]

Apologies, my sour grapes comment was intended to be regarding Timo's response to Will on ITA, not at his 'assessment of evidence'.

It is a difficult one to make a decision on, but the video and Will statements, which he's obviously considered and consulted on for at least a couple of months, gives cause for thought. Something 'works' on Timo's car, where is stands in the rules is yet to be confirmed.

Off topic but on the subject of TMD rules, is anyone informed as to wheter the 50°F rule is in place in FIA rulebook for A/FD cars in 2011? Apart from the technical/safety revisions expected via NHRA, when are the updated regulations .pdf due to be released by FIA/Speedgroup/SPRC?

[wicked fish]

hi Fergy sorry i misunderstood the sour grapes comment or at least where it was directed,

Will has made a stand has had the gonads to stand up and make a carefully concidered statement and presented his evidence, or some of it,

this will go on for a long time and i dont think its fair for us here who are far from experts on the matter to make comments,
I have been around this blown alky stuff a while now, I have an oppinion, but im not an expert and so wont state my oppinion,

lets leave this one to the experts!!

On the other question next time i talk to rob loaring i will ask him as he in on the uk tech comittie and will probably know what rules are changing if he dont dave wilson will!!

Edited by wicked fish on Thursday 4th November 12:47

edit to add

ok folks get your popcorn ready favorite chair and settle back for a treat on ITA its getting ugly!!!

Edited by wicked fish on Thursday 4th November 14:47

[Modernpics]

wicked fish said:

lets leave this one to the experts!!

But for this sort of thing who are the experts?

And how does the protest system work with the logistical nature of drag racing.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out

[wicked fish]

Modernpics said:

wicked fish said:

lets leave this one to the experts!!

But for this sort of thing who are the experts?

And how does the protest system work with the logistical nature of drag racing.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out

the experts are

the uk tech guys who are looking at this,
the TMD racers who to to be fair have many many years experience with this stuff,
anyone else who has any real info based on fact not heresay or opinion

the protest system is simple you pay your money and make your claim, (protest fee)

if the claim is upheld you get your money back and the offender is punnished if its not you dont get your money back and your a laughing stock,

you will be a laughing stock if the techies dont find what ever you (the protester)claim is wrong,
that dont mean its not wrong it means it wasnt either found or found to be wrong depending on the claim

very different things

Edited by wicked fish on Thursday 4th November 15:09

[Modernpics]

I understand how you start the protest system works (its the same as any FIA , MSA, CIK, etc , etc)

To produce a hypothetical situation

Lets say Joe Blogs makes a protest against Jane Noname after round 2 of eliminations, Joe and Jane did not race each other so there is no need for for a rerun. Joe Blogs protest is against a multi point rev limiter (just to being it in to context with the discussion) . Joe goes pays his money as Jane crosses the finish line.

Lets say The Protest is made at 1300 hours the next race is at 1500 hours (two hours time).

So what happens now?

1. Is the car impounded instantly and checked with a fine tooth comb resulting in round three of eliminations being delayed.
2. Is the car Impounded as soon as it is eliminated at checked as it finished its last race (the race it was eliminated from not the one that the protest was raised against.)
3. Is the car maintained in parc ferme with anything taken off the can being collected and the car plus addition items being scrutinised at a time when no advantage or disadvantage is be to gained by the team being scrutinised or their opponents


This is just a general enquiry as to how the system works and is by no means intended as a slur against any one or organisation

[Conian]

Bookmarked, this could be huuuuuuuuuuge.

[lucky777devil]

All very interesting. I cant make any comment either way , I dont consider myself to have enough knowledge either way. One thing is for sure , its going to be a long interesting road.............it would be great for TV !!

[Burndown]

Do the habermans have a closer link to McLaren or Ferrari, this could be a deciding factor in an FIA investigation!!!!!!!!

[trackday addict]

Christ - interesting stuff !

Shame it's end of season as obviously could now drag on for quite a while .....

[ribaric]

Making a formal complaint is pretty pointless if the offending device is electronic (virtually impossible to prove what it does) or can be un-plugged and removed quickly. A formal "we couldn't prove anything" decision would suit nobody.

The technical side of this argument will be hellishly difficult to prove and, in view of that, maybe the best we can hope for is a general understanding of how best to proceed in future disputes of this kind.
As usual, I don't have an answer.

[Some Gump]

Disclaimer - no involvement in drag racing, and no understandiing of the rules..

BUT

I've been involved in motorsport a bit oiver the years, and if you "know for sure" your competitor is cheating, you put in a protest. You don't just spread rumours.

[wicked fish]

Some Gump said:

Disclaimer - no involvement in drag racing, and no understandiing of the rules..

BUT

I've been involved in motorsport a bit oiver the years, and if you "know for sure" your competitor is cheating, you put in a protest. You don't just spread rumours.

dissagree.... if the tech guys have no idea what their looking for and therefor you protest will fail its pointless to protest,

it gets to a point of frustration i guess ,,, if you know something but cant prove it, you look for alies to back you up and by showing the evidence publicaly is one way of getting them or at least letting everyone see the evidence, shure you invite critisism but you make your point,
whatever happens i bet that car dont misfire at the hit next year...

Edited by wicked fish on Thursday 4th November 22:12

[MotorPsycho]

If there was anything on Timo's car as a traction control device you can be damn sure it's now long gone (or a cynic might say, moved somewhere else/disguised)

Be interesting to see how quick he goes next year and whether that mysterious misfire has been 'fixed'

[wicked fish]

veryoldfart said:

If a competitor can go faster by introducing (in effect) a controlled "fault/missfire" (at least thats how it reads?) wheres the real harm? id say it show amazing ingenuity, of course any electronics used (if actually banned) would be a naughty but id guess software could be programmed to do the same job and built-in.

its an unusual concept though "missfire for better performance" just sounds/looks odd...

that is the essence of the allegation and it is illegal wether it is hard ware of software,
wheres the harm?? the harm is than if you gain an advantage by doing something no one else does because its cheating, you risk bringing the sport into disrepute when the s**t hits the fan

[fergywales]

veryoldfart said:

If a competitor can go faster by introducing (in effect) a controlled "fault/missfire" (at least thats how it reads?) wheres the real harm? id say it show amazing ingenuity, of course any electronics used (if actually banned) would be a naughty but id guess software could be programmed to do the same job and built-in.

its an unusual concept though "missfire for better performance" just sounds/looks odd...

It most certainly isn't ingenious, it is the use of equipment designed for one purpose (rev limiting) and modifying it to your requirement (traction control).

BAD in TMD are on the very edge of tyre shake when being hit hard, that is their nature with current tyres available and how the tune up works, and the ability to hit it hard whilst having a 'fault/misfire/dip in power' at the relevant time(s), allows the car to hit hard, start to shake as initial wheel speed % lowers with forward motion, settle through 'predetermined misfire', and pick up again, as required.

The car only needs about 150ft - 200ft to be settled into the run or the run to be lost due to missing the setup. The ability to widen the window for missing means you're going to get out of the problem area more often without having to peddle/short shift/risk damage, and that equates to more complete runs, more hard passes to qualify high and ultimately more round wins.

[Big go'75]

Would the solution be to let racers run whatever traction control they feel fit, as in ADRL, or would this add another layer of unwanted cost?
Would any of the cost be recouped by any savings on parts, or doesn't it make any difference?

[wicked fish]

Big go'75 said:

Would the solution be to let racers run whatever traction control they feel fit, as in ADRL, or would this add another layer of unwanted cost?
Would any of the cost be recouped by any savings on parts, or doesn't it make any difference?

its probably the most positive way of getting round it, some of these units are well over $6000 so it would cost, But the guys racing at the level of fia pro classes if their in the hunt for a championship they probably spent a mint already
you wouldnt have to have it
and to be fair it dosnt realy increase performance it just lets you make laps when you shouldnt,

there are so many ways of doing this all illegal a two step box wired to a digiset and a WOT swich would be a traction controll device of a sort and cost pennies

problem is doing it that way leaves a header signature on a blown car

Edited by wicked fish on Friday 5th November 18:45