I think it's time for a Cobra

[ColinM50]

Had my Royale Sabre for 18 months now and love it to bits. This summer I had it re-engined with a 2.0 Zetec and set up on a rolling road and it goes pretty well. Been playing with it every weekend and loving the performance. Not earth shatteringly stupid quick, but then at 60 I don't want blistering performance, just a bit of fun really. I bought the Sabre ready built and have been looking in vain for an unbuilt kit to build one but so far not found one.

So got to thinking that maybe I should have put a V8 in it when I had the chance in the summer and of course one thing leads to another and I'm now seriously considering building a Cobra. As my normal car I've got a 3 litre V6 Jag S type and I reckon the 4.2 litre V8 engine and auto box from one of those would be a superb and cheap powertrain for a Cobra. And you can pick a S type up for around £1K.

I quite like the Dax Cobra rather than the Pilgrim though the GD one looks good too. But whichever one I get it'll definitely have a Jag engine.

So what does everyone think?

[mickrick]

Might be worth a look at the Hawk Cobra too?
http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/hawk427/index.html

[JONSCZ]

Hi Colin.
Before you do anything, get yourself over to http://www.cobraclub.com/ and ask there
very friendly and knowledgeable folk on there...
Cheers, Jon

[Happy Jim]

Colin,

You'll need to take a tape measure out 1st, some of the more modern whizz bang V8's are pretty wide and will be a PITA to fit in the Cobra (that said, some fit just fine!).

As per Jon, take a trip to the Cob Club site for more opinionated debate :-)

Regards

Jim

[singlecoil]

ColinM50 said:

I reckon the 4.2 litre V8 engine and auto box from one of those would be a superb and cheap powertrain for a Cobra. And you can pick a S type up for around £1K.

There is a slight problem with that. You are going to have to be very clever with electronics and programming, or you will have to use an aftermarket ECU and a separate one to run the autobox. You can get 2 or 3 autobox ECUs from the States (where else, you would think auto is a dirty word with car enthusiasts in other countries), but wou will have to budget at least £600 for the auto ECU, and probably another £600 or more for the engine ECU, and you will still have some programming to do.

Using the original ECU (which controls the auto as well) will be very tricky, it might not let you start the engine because it thinks maybe the back door open, as all thse things talk to each other over the CAN BUS.

Do I sound as if I have looked into this stuff

[jason61c]

if you're doing a cobra the only option is a Gardner Douglas one.

[Ferg]

jason61c said:

if you're doing a cobra the only option is a Gardner Douglas one.

That's a bit of a statement.
It's horses for courses, I reckon.
Personally, I would have a GD if I felt the need for a Cobra, but the OP has already stated he'll be fitting a Jag engine so it's not really going to be a proper replica.

[Yazza54]

Please do it properly and fit a 289 or 427 Ford.

[Mr2Mike]

Yazza54 said:

Please do it properly and fit a 289 or 427 Ford.

I've never understood why a light, powerful and (relatively) economic modern engine is less "proper" than an ancient pig iron lump that was used in the early 60's. If this was the case why does no-one berate Caterham owners for not fitting A series engines, or Ford sidevalves?

[Yazza54]

Mr2Mike said:

Yazza54 said:

Please do it properly and fit a 289 or 427 Ford.

I've never understood why a light, powerful and (relatively) economic modern engine is less "proper" than an ancient pig iron lump that was used in the early 60's. If this was the case why does no-one berate Caterham owners for not fitting A series engines, or Ford sidevalves?

Depends if you want a replica or a lookalike

[Ferg]

I don't think Caterham owners try to make their cars look like Lotus' and very rarely put Lotus badges on. Some Cobra owners put '427' badges on with Chevy engines. Is that right?

[Mr2Mike]

Yazza54 said:

Depends if you want a replica or a lookalike

Just using the original engine type doesn't make an authentic replica, how many of the Cobra kits utilise the original chassis and suspension design?

[Yazza54]

I've not seen a Caterham that looks anything like an original Lotus 7. The style is similar but they don't really have anything else in common.


It's not the same thing. Saying you want a Cobra with all different running gear and a rover, jag, chevy motor under the bonnet basically means that you don't want a Cobra. You want a kit car made to fit a Cobra body on so it looks like a Cobra.

Edited by Yazza54 on Saturday 6th November 23:24

[Yazza54]

Mr2Mike said:

Yazza54 said:

Depends if you want a replica or a lookalike

Just using the original engine type doesn't make an authentic replica, how many of the Cobra kits utilise the original chassis and suspension design?

I don't know, I'm not big on Cobra's. Not my thing. But a replica should be just that. Not some one off chassis with a lookalike body on. In that case it shouldn't be called a Cobra.


I'm not saying it's all about what engine is fitted, but it's a pet hate of mine. Of course to be a correct replica the chassis should be as close to the real thing as possible too.

Edited by Yazza54 on Saturday 6th November 23:27

[Mr2Mike]

Yazza54 said:

I've not seen a Caterham that looks anything like an original Lotus 7. The style is similar but they don't really have anything else in common.


It's not the same thing. Saying you want a Cobra with all different running gear and a rover, jag, chevy motor under the bonnet basically means that you don't want a Cobra. You want a kit car made to fit a Cobra body on so it looks like a Cobra.

No, it probably means you would like a Cobra but couldn't afford either the purchase price of the original or the ridiculous costs of building an accurate replica. A well built Cobra kit with a modern V8 still shares the basic ethos of the original, just as a Duratec engined Caterham does. We aren't talking about a ratty MR2 with Ferrari(esque) GRP panels bonded onto it.

Just FMI does anyone know which of the Cobra kits can be used to create an authentic replica? i.e. uses the original live rear axle and front suspension? Not many I suspect, and I doubt any of the cheaper ones

Edited by Mr2Mike on Saturday 6th November 23:34

[Yazza54]

Mr2Mike said:

Yazza54 said:

I've not seen a Caterham that looks anything like an original Lotus 7. The style is similar but they don't really have anything else in common.


It's not the same thing. Saying you want a Cobra with all different running gear and a rover, jag, chevy motor under the bonnet basically means that you don't want a Cobra. You want a kit car made to fit a Cobra body on so it looks like a Cobra.

No, it probably means you would like a Cobra but couldn't afford either the purchase price of the original or the ridiculous costs of building an accurate replica. A well built Cobra kit with a modern V8 still shares the basic ethos of the original, just as a Duratec engined Caterham does. We aren't talking about a ratty MR2 with Ferrari(esque) GRP panels bonded onto it.

Just FMI does anyone know which of the Cobra kits can be used to create an authentic replica? i.e. uses the original live rear axle and front suspension? Not many I suspect, and I doubt any of the cheaper ones

Edited by Mr2Mike on Saturday 6th November 23:34

Hopefully someone can answer that, I'm afraid I can't. As I said earlier I'm no expert on Cobra's, but I know the basics of a good replica and it's a pet hate of mine when they aren't done right. Each to their own I guess. Theres probably plenty of people who would be happy driving a Cobra copy with not much in common with the original. For me though, if I couldn't afford to do it properly I just wouldn't do it.

I was talking to a GTD40 owner the other week and had a similar conversation with him. Apparently there isn't one car in their club that isn't ford powered...unless it's been bought fitted with something else and awaiting transplant. I have to say, I thought that was great.

There are a lot of Cobras about when you go to kit car shows, if it were me I'd like to park mine up thinking that mine was one of the best, not just there to make numbers up. Dunno, people take pleasure in different things, I just don't 'get' copies that share nothing with the original.

Edited by Yazza54 on Saturday 6th November 23:44

[Ferg]

I think it's a situation of opinions.

To me a 'Cobra' with the wrong chassis, engine, gearbox, axle, suspension, interior etc is just a car that looks a bit like a Cobra. The very fact that THE important factor in the Cobra, that Shelby put a Ford engine in what was essentially an AC, means that without a Ford it's a bit of a piss-take.

I'm confused, really, why a 'cobra' with only just a look-a-like body to show for it's 'cobraness' is so much more authentic than the much derided MR2 Ferrari.

[Mr2Mike]

Ferg said:

I'm confused, really, why a 'cobra' with only just a look-a-like body to show for it's 'cobraness' is so much more authentic than the much derided MR2 Ferrari.

Because a kit "Cobra" won't just have a look alike body in most cases.
1) It looks right. Providing the kit manufacturer has done a good job the body proportions and wheelbase are correct or very close to correct. Not so with MR2 conversions which are often laughably bad.
2) It sounds right. A big V8 with big open pipes is going to sound great irrespective of whether it's a prehistoric big block or a modern DOHC engine. How many 4 cylinder 355's were made by Ferrari?
3) It still contains the essential ingredients that made the original great; noisy, fast and raw driving experience. Not like a butchered Japanese sports coupe running 6" wheel spacers.

If you are talking worst case e.g. a Pilgim Sumo with a 2.0 Pinto then I would agree, it's little better than an MR2 Ferrari because it's lost most of what makes a Cobra such great car. The majority of Cobras will have at least an RV8 which still sounds great, even if most of them are asthmatic, wheezing piles of scrap.

Yazza54 said:

Dunno, people take pleasure in different things, I just don't 'get' copies that share nothing with the original.

This is my point really, even with the "wrong" V8 engine fitted, a cobra copy can share the essential aspects that make the original what it is. Personally I would want a Cobra for driving, not for showing, so a more modern engine makes perfect sense to me.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Sunday 7th November 12:19

[Ferg]

Mr2Mike said:

Ferg said:

I'm confused, really, why a 'cobra' with only just a look-a-like body to show for it's 'cobraness' is so much more authentic than the much derided MR2 Ferrari.

Because a kit "Cobra" won't just have a look alike body in most cases.
1) It looks right. Providing the kit manufacturer has done a good job the body proportions and wheelbase are correct or very close to correct. Not so with MR2 conversions which are often laughably bad.
2) It sounds right. A big V8 with big open pipes is going to sound great irrespective of whether it's a prehistoric big block or a modern DOHC engine. How many 4 cylinder 355's were made by Ferrari?
3) It still contains the essential ingredients that made the original great; noisy, fast and raw driving experience. Not like a butchered Japanese sports coupe running 6" wheel spacers.

If you are talking worst case e.g. a Pilgim Sumo with a 2.0 Pinto then I would agree, it's little better than an MR2 Ferrari because it's lost most of what makes a Cobra such great car. The majority of Cobras will have at least an RV8 which still sounds great, even if most of them are asthmatic, wheezing piles of scrap.

Then we're talking 'degrees of right-ness'. Real Cobra's (almost) ONLY have Ford engines. To put others in just not trying hard enough in my eyes.

[Mr2Mike]

Ferg said:

Then we're talking 'degrees of right-ness'. Real Cobra's (almost) ONLY have Ford engines. To put others in just not trying hard enough in my eyes.

Do you believe a Mk1 Escort fitted with e.g. a Zetec engine is no longer a real Mk1 Escort, or is it still real because it uses a Mk1 escort bodyshell? If the latter then surely any Cobra not made by Shelby is not 'real'?