Discussion
Bit of an odd thread this one. Two reasons - firstly it may not make sense, and secondly I'm wasted and too far back to make any coherent sentences that may be potentially comprehensible by normal space cadets.
I sold my Sinn 356-II to a mate. It was the one with the guilloche copper dial and thick brown leather strap. Lovely, lovely watch but it was a sports chrono (and a VJ7750 at that) masquerading as a 'smart' and 'pretty' watch. And now, the more and more I look at it, I see Sinn as a manufacturer of tool watches. Not, yet, a 'manufacture', but certainly a 'marque' worthy of serious respect.
Hence I'd still like a Sinn in my collection. I was considering the Arktis but I'm in a quandary. I have too many steel sports chronographs, mostly on the motor-racing theme but my two top watches in that category are the Breguet transatlantique and the JLC Gran'Sport Reverso Chrono. As far as I'm concerned, I need to sell all the rest apart from a 'daily-wear' watch that has the essential chrono and date complications and is tough enough to withstand daily use. I'm not risking the JLC as it's very precious (and not particularly robust, from what I can tell), and the Breguet has a crap bracelet that really needs a locking security clasp. It doesn't, and lets the watch down (it's one hell of a beautiful watch otherwise though!!!).
I ought to sell the Breguet but because of the respect I have for the man himself, I really need to own a Breguet in my collection. I can't afford the 'special' complications - realistically, given that I'd only wear it for 'evening' functions, I ought to have a gold Classique Breguet but they're big money. So I bought the Transatlantique as a replacement and upgrade from my old Daytona.
That's off topic (as I said, I'm off topic in my own head) and what I was really wanting to talk about was Sinn. I own an IWC Aquatimer in titanium. It's nice but it gets zero wrist time, so I want to sell it. However I want a titanium watch in my collection. It seems to me that a titanium chrono would make a nice daily-wear alternative to the Tudor HC when it's too big and heavy (the Tudor HC is quite substantial and I have wrists like a starved supermodel with a serious heroin habit, but without the looks and with an extra Y chromosome).
And Sinn have a rather nice watch that ticks the boxes. Their 103 Ti Ar UTC hits the spot, and also adds complications that I don't have any more! Not only does the watch feature a titanium case and bracelet (like my IWC), the titanium is hardened (I've learned a lesson about the scratch-resistance of titanium, or the lack of it). I know I'm not a particular fan of the VJ7750 movement but we're talking less than 2 grand here, and the Sinn I sold had the same movement. The version in the titanium watch is upgraded with both the second time-zone complication (hence the UTC in the title) and has Sinn's decoration because the watch is offered with a sapphire display back. Now *that* appeals because very few of my watches have display backs (one, only) and I LOVE looking at the movement.
My last watch with two timezones was my first Rolex - the Explorer II - and I haven't had a watch with this complication since. The Sinn offers this, plus a proper chronograph, plus a date, and a lightweight titanium case and bracelet, AND a display back with a decorated movement.
Sadly it's one of the most expensive Sinns. However, my IWC Aquatimer is worth around the amount Sinn (well, Neil at Chronomaster) are asking - £1900 - surely?
Basically, this rambling nonsense is all about - do I offer Neil a trade or am I crazy even considering it? The IWC gets no wrist time, yet the Sinn would probably get 50:50 with my Tudor HC. This is the risk - having *two* ostensibly 'daily wear' watches requires the need for two, and the Tudor HC is still my favourite. But it's big and heavy - sometimes *annoyingly* heavy (it's big and thick stainless steel) - and I do like Sinn. I won't buy another steel Sinn because it'll be bottom tier in a range of steel chronos I already own… but a titanium watch with display back… I really fancy it.
What does the forum think? I've already decided that it makes no sense to own the IWC titanium Aquatimer if I'm not wearing it, hence it is going to be sold. But I've not received many decent offers on price, and a trade against a £1900 watch (can one deal with Neil - I've never tried asking for discount on Sinn watches with him - is this even feasible?) that I'll wear sounds sensible. More sensible would be getting a top price for the IWC and using the money elsewhere, since I don't need any more watches. But it's an addiction, you know…
Basically, am I off my face on the money front here? Should I be thinking of getting MUCH more for the IWC and paying MUCH less for the Sinn? Does Neil take offers and give discounts? Is the UTC variant of the 7750 a poor movement? Are Sinn's titanium watches actually just as scratchable as IWC's - or does Sinn's fancy surface treatment actually work? Given that I really don't give a damn if some ill-informed buffoon considers me a 'wannabe' because my watch has 'Sinn' on the dial and not 'IWC' (much as in the way that my current daily has 'Tudor' and not 'Rolex' on the dial) - are the prices fair? Nearly £2k for a Sinn is pushing it, but it's a complicated watch and I really like Sinn… it's this one:
Comments good and bad much welcomed. In other news, an old gentleman on my train the other week got off at London Bridge with me, presumably on the way into the City, wearing an obviously high quality but old and slightly tatty suit, plus obviously bespoke but again old and well-worn shoes. Old money, he was in second class whereas wannabe-cyberface wasn't. He was wearing a Patek annual calendar. I had a good look to check whether it was a perpetual calendar but he noticed my attention and didn't appear the sort to appreciate a 'that's a lovely watch, chap' comment from me. Regardless, that's at least £15,000 on his wrist. Now I love special, complicated watches… but walking through London Bridge with £15k on my wrist would have me somewhat nervous. Wearing my most expensive watch (the JLC, I guess, even though I didn't pay anything like its real value for it) is now limited to local evenings and NEVER train rides into London. Hell, if it was one of the Perpetuals (I don't think it was, though I'm no Patek expert) then it'd be worth twice that at least… crazy for some chap travelling second class into London on a commuter train. Old money I guess… lovely watch though.
I sold my Sinn 356-II to a mate. It was the one with the guilloche copper dial and thick brown leather strap. Lovely, lovely watch but it was a sports chrono (and a VJ7750 at that) masquerading as a 'smart' and 'pretty' watch. And now, the more and more I look at it, I see Sinn as a manufacturer of tool watches. Not, yet, a 'manufacture', but certainly a 'marque' worthy of serious respect.
Hence I'd still like a Sinn in my collection. I was considering the Arktis but I'm in a quandary. I have too many steel sports chronographs, mostly on the motor-racing theme but my two top watches in that category are the Breguet transatlantique and the JLC Gran'Sport Reverso Chrono. As far as I'm concerned, I need to sell all the rest apart from a 'daily-wear' watch that has the essential chrono and date complications and is tough enough to withstand daily use. I'm not risking the JLC as it's very precious (and not particularly robust, from what I can tell), and the Breguet has a crap bracelet that really needs a locking security clasp. It doesn't, and lets the watch down (it's one hell of a beautiful watch otherwise though!!!).
I ought to sell the Breguet but because of the respect I have for the man himself, I really need to own a Breguet in my collection. I can't afford the 'special' complications - realistically, given that I'd only wear it for 'evening' functions, I ought to have a gold Classique Breguet but they're big money. So I bought the Transatlantique as a replacement and upgrade from my old Daytona.
That's off topic (as I said, I'm off topic in my own head) and what I was really wanting to talk about was Sinn. I own an IWC Aquatimer in titanium. It's nice but it gets zero wrist time, so I want to sell it. However I want a titanium watch in my collection. It seems to me that a titanium chrono would make a nice daily-wear alternative to the Tudor HC when it's too big and heavy (the Tudor HC is quite substantial and I have wrists like a starved supermodel with a serious heroin habit, but without the looks and with an extra Y chromosome).
And Sinn have a rather nice watch that ticks the boxes. Their 103 Ti Ar UTC hits the spot, and also adds complications that I don't have any more! Not only does the watch feature a titanium case and bracelet (like my IWC), the titanium is hardened (I've learned a lesson about the scratch-resistance of titanium, or the lack of it). I know I'm not a particular fan of the VJ7750 movement but we're talking less than 2 grand here, and the Sinn I sold had the same movement. The version in the titanium watch is upgraded with both the second time-zone complication (hence the UTC in the title) and has Sinn's decoration because the watch is offered with a sapphire display back. Now *that* appeals because very few of my watches have display backs (one, only) and I LOVE looking at the movement.
My last watch with two timezones was my first Rolex - the Explorer II - and I haven't had a watch with this complication since. The Sinn offers this, plus a proper chronograph, plus a date, and a lightweight titanium case and bracelet, AND a display back with a decorated movement.
Sadly it's one of the most expensive Sinns. However, my IWC Aquatimer is worth around the amount Sinn (well, Neil at Chronomaster) are asking - £1900 - surely?
Basically, this rambling nonsense is all about - do I offer Neil a trade or am I crazy even considering it? The IWC gets no wrist time, yet the Sinn would probably get 50:50 with my Tudor HC. This is the risk - having *two* ostensibly 'daily wear' watches requires the need for two, and the Tudor HC is still my favourite. But it's big and heavy - sometimes *annoyingly* heavy (it's big and thick stainless steel) - and I do like Sinn. I won't buy another steel Sinn because it'll be bottom tier in a range of steel chronos I already own… but a titanium watch with display back… I really fancy it.
What does the forum think? I've already decided that it makes no sense to own the IWC titanium Aquatimer if I'm not wearing it, hence it is going to be sold. But I've not received many decent offers on price, and a trade against a £1900 watch (can one deal with Neil - I've never tried asking for discount on Sinn watches with him - is this even feasible?) that I'll wear sounds sensible. More sensible would be getting a top price for the IWC and using the money elsewhere, since I don't need any more watches. But it's an addiction, you know…
Basically, am I off my face on the money front here? Should I be thinking of getting MUCH more for the IWC and paying MUCH less for the Sinn? Does Neil take offers and give discounts? Is the UTC variant of the 7750 a poor movement? Are Sinn's titanium watches actually just as scratchable as IWC's - or does Sinn's fancy surface treatment actually work? Given that I really don't give a damn if some ill-informed buffoon considers me a 'wannabe' because my watch has 'Sinn' on the dial and not 'IWC' (much as in the way that my current daily has 'Tudor' and not 'Rolex' on the dial) - are the prices fair? Nearly £2k for a Sinn is pushing it, but it's a complicated watch and I really like Sinn… it's this one:
Comments good and bad much welcomed. In other news, an old gentleman on my train the other week got off at London Bridge with me, presumably on the way into the City, wearing an obviously high quality but old and slightly tatty suit, plus obviously bespoke but again old and well-worn shoes. Old money, he was in second class whereas wannabe-cyberface wasn't. He was wearing a Patek annual calendar. I had a good look to check whether it was a perpetual calendar but he noticed my attention and didn't appear the sort to appreciate a 'that's a lovely watch, chap' comment from me. Regardless, that's at least £15,000 on his wrist. Now I love special, complicated watches… but walking through London Bridge with £15k on my wrist would have me somewhat nervous. Wearing my most expensive watch (the JLC, I guess, even though I didn't pay anything like its real value for it) is now limited to local evenings and NEVER train rides into London. Hell, if it was one of the Perpetuals (I don't think it was, though I'm no Patek expert) then it'd be worth twice that at least… crazy for some chap travelling second class into London on a commuter train. Old money I guess… lovely watch though.
It's (103 Ti etc) a very good watch that ticks a lot of boxes, last week on eBay the Diapal version went for just over a grand, and the same seller also let his EZM1 go for £1600. Two proper bargains.
I've seen different varients as well that have been customised - red UTC hand etc - direct from Sinn.
I've worn my EZM (Ti) for over a year almost permanently and it's showing no signs of wear yet.
If I were to buy a new watch for daily wear and practical use it would be a 103 varient - the Ti Diapal being top of the list.
I've seen different varients as well that have been customised - red UTC hand etc - direct from Sinn.
I've worn my EZM (Ti) for over a year almost permanently and it's showing no signs of wear yet.
If I were to buy a new watch for daily wear and practical use it would be a 103 varient - the Ti Diapal being top of the list.
fourtaelsgold said:
Which titanium aquatimer do you have?
The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
3538.The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
http://www.cyberface.net/ph/watches/iwc/index.html
cyberface said:
fourtaelsgold said:
Which titanium aquatimer do you have?
The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
3538.The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
http://www.cyberface.net/ph/watches/iwc/index.html
I know I'm a new member here but I frequent other watch forums.
I can do a f2f deal.
You've put forward a lot of sensible arguments for getting that model. Snag is, watches aren't about "head" decisions. The watches you really love are "heart" decisions. Do you really want it? You don't. If you did, you'd already have bought it and not asked a load of strangers.
As for wearing expensive watches, I think, "How much do I want to give a mugger?" and end up wearing sub-£100 watches when I'm in public/walking around at night in towns. Again, my cheap watches are also watches I like without any logic in choosing them.
As for wearing expensive watches, I think, "How much do I want to give a mugger?" and end up wearing sub-£100 watches when I'm in public/walking around at night in towns. Again, my cheap watches are also watches I like without any logic in choosing them.
ShadownINja said:
You've put forward a lot of sensible arguments for getting that model. Snag is, watches aren't about "head" decisions. The watches you really love are "heart" decisions. Do you really want it? You don't. If you did, you'd already have bought it and not asked a load of strangers.
As for wearing expensive watches, I think, "How much do I want to give a mugger?" and end up wearing sub-£100 watches when I'm in public/walking around at night in towns. Again, my cheap watches are also watches I like without any logic in choosing them.
The reason I haven't already bought it Ninja is that I don't have infinite funds and I'm building a project motorbike that's taking all my spare money.As for wearing expensive watches, I think, "How much do I want to give a mugger?" and end up wearing sub-£100 watches when I'm in public/walking around at night in towns. Again, my cheap watches are also watches I like without any logic in choosing them.
I want the Sinn with all the complications now I've sold the 356 (don't want two Sinns in my collection) but I need to sell something or do a swap (which Neil will do, a straight swap so that's £1900 for the IWC, offers above this please
) but there are a couple of watches I could sell to fund it.My head's a funny place Ninja, me old china - just because I can make a sensible argument for something doesn't mean there's no 'heart' or right-brain involved. In fact, I'm one of the world's worst examples of someone who can make a rational, intelligent and convincing argument for something completely impetuously impulsive that I've just thought up on the spot. My girlfriend has a special eye-rolling face for when I've convinced her with tungsten-cored logic that, say, it makes sense to spend tens of thousands on a large family saloon (when we don't, and sadly looking like we can't, have kids) from a bankrupt manufacturer that was made by their backroom engineers as a 'special' - and then get it supercharged so there are 7 similar cars in the world, it does 8 mpg and it's HER car that she uses to drive the 0.8 mile journey to the station car park each day. Perfectly sane station car, after all, no???
Look mate I'm messed up beyond all hope, I was merely canvassing whether Sinn, being a LOT cheaper than IWC, would have lower quality movement modifications - or whether Helmut Sinn really has made the bargain-of-the-century company that is effectively IWC quality but at a quarter of the price.
After all, IWC's Aquatimer chrono uses the 7750. They do some modifications to it. Sinn's titanium 103 UTC uses the 7750 with dual timezone (7751?? can't remember) that is ALSO modified with uprated components. We all love Sinn here but are IWC *really* 4 times superior in their movement modifications… or are we all paying for the name in a BIG way with IWC? How does Helmut Sinn get that particular watch down to £1900?
And yes, I DO love it.
I can answer one part of your question, which is yes you can negotiate with Neil, I have certainly done so. He will certainly also consider trades. Of course he is a profesional watch dealer, making his living from it, so I wouldn't anticipate a deal akin to a private sale. But he's an absoluteluy sound guy, and I'd thoroughly recommend him.
(Of course you may have found a sale here anyway).
(Of course you may have found a sale here anyway).
The diapal version? Something genuinely upgraded from stock 7750.
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t... may be interesting reading although I know you're quite up on your movements.
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t... may be interesting reading although I know you're quite up on your movements.
cyberface said:
Look mate I'm messed up beyond all hope, I was merely canvassing whether Sinn, being a LOT cheaper than IWC, would have lower quality movement modifications - or whether Helmut Sinn really has made the bargain-of-the-century company that is effectively IWC quality but at a quarter of the price.
After all, IWC's Aquatimer chrono uses the 7750. They do some modifications to it. Sinn's titanium 103 UTC uses the 7750 with dual timezone (7751?? can't remember) that is ALSO modified with uprated components. We all love Sinn here but are IWC *really* 4 times superior in their movement modifications… or are we all paying for the name in a BIG way with IWC? How does Helmut Sinn get that particular watch down to £1900?
And yes, I DO love it.
IMO (whatever that may be worth! After all, IWC's Aquatimer chrono uses the 7750. They do some modifications to it. Sinn's titanium 103 UTC uses the 7750 with dual timezone (7751?? can't remember) that is ALSO modified with uprated components. We all love Sinn here but are IWC *really* 4 times superior in their movement modifications… or are we all paying for the name in a BIG way with IWC? How does Helmut Sinn get that particular watch down to £1900?
And yes, I DO love it.
) the IWC is not worth four times as much.If it had an in-house movement (that was special, but let's not turn this into a Rolex 3135 debate!
) then my thoughts would be different.But the ETA-based IWCs always seem a touch on the expensive side for what you get.
Get the Sinn, it's lovely!
I don't know which derivative of the 7750 it uses; I don't think it's the 7751 though.
Or you could put the money towards an RM 005
I'm half tempted to shelve any plans I had to get a Grand Seiko when I finally return to England next year after my (long) holiday and just keep saving up for a Richard Mille. The only problem with that is if I had enough for one I'd probably put it towards a BMW M6.
I'm half tempted to shelve any plans I had to get a Grand Seiko when I finally return to England next year after my (long) holiday and just keep saving up for a Richard Mille. The only problem with that is if I had enough for one I'd probably put it towards a BMW M6.
fourtaelsgold said:
cyberface said:
fourtaelsgold said:
Which titanium aquatimer do you have?
The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
3538.The 3536 or 3538?
I'm interested in one
http://www.cyberface.net/ph/watches/iwc/index.html
I know I'm a new member here but I frequent other watch forums.
I can do a f2f deal.
bobthemonkey said:
How about a Snoopy Speedmaster Pro? Nice and unique, or is it a bit 'wannabe'.
?Not sure if this was an accidental reply to the wrong post, bob?
Anyway the IWC is being traded for the Diapal Ti 103 UTC with titanium bracelet and sapphire display caseback, all the bells and whistles. Interesting and uniquely modified movement, light weight, a new complication for my collection (don't have a dual timezone watch any more!) and will be a lot tougher with the titanium treatment.
So this thread may as well die until I post a couple of pics of the watch when it arrives!
Andy_s asked me a question in the Wrist Check thread, where I posted a couple of pictures of my new Sinn (I'll post more here as and when I take them). The answer turned into a typical cyberface mini-review and essay, so instead of polluting the Wrist Check thread, where the information won't be of interest to everyone, I've moved it here, where presumably you're reading this because you're interested in Sinn and/or IWC. This is entirely now about Sinn, as I have acquired the 103 Titanium Diapal UTC model.
The movement is *very* nicely finished and there are LOTS of upgrades, this is no standard 7750 and I appreciate that.
Compared to the Tudor it's virtually weightless and the bracelet feels utterly flimsy and non-existent. However that's because the Tudor is a kilogram of solid steel ( OK made that up, but it's well beyond the maximum limit of my milligram scale! ) - the Sinn is NOT flimsy and it's refreshingly light. It really is one extreme to the other - whilst the Tudor manages to achieve comfort *despite* its enormous mass and substantial size, the Sinn is very comfortable to wear full stop, it's designed to be so. The interesting this is that even though it's a souped-up 7750, it's not vastly thick and doesn't get in the way of shirt cuffs like many 7750s. I don't know how they've managed it but it's anti-magnetic even without the usual soft-iron insert and obligatory fat curved caseback that makes the watch even thicker, and the sapphire display back (anti-reflective coating on inside only, more details!) is flat and contributes to the watch lying flat on the wrist. This itself is comfortable and unlike the 356, which has a curved caseback and can lie at an angle depending on how you've adjusted the strap.
The lightness of the watch really exaggerates the action of the movement! You can really feel the automatic winding rotor swinging around because it's a significant proportion of the total mass of the case. The lack of mass also contributes to the lack of sound damping - you can hear the rotor very clearly. This is NOT a watch for someone who doesn't want to know what's inside and just wants to know the time
Haven't even thought about solid end links? From the photo above it doesn't look like it but I'll double check. From above the bracelet to watch interface looks machined with perfect tolerances, not like a folded sheet, but these German engineers may as well be magicians. What do you mean by 'captive bezel'?? The bezel doesn't pop off, that's for sure, but I've never had a watch that had a bezel that could escape when you weren't holding it captive… that would be somewhat annoying, no?
Speaking of "German Engineering" - it's a complete cliché, I know, and whilst the English have a fine history (mainly past glories, but we still quietly produce some of the world's finest engineers, especially in the field of motorsport) of engineering from oddly-named bridge experts to fabulously noisy and idiosyncratic boat (and train) engine designs… it's the Germans that come to mind when I think of national stereotypes. And the Sinn is incredibly 'engineered' in a way none of my other watches are. For example, this is the ONLY watch that comes with a little bottle of threadlock, and within the instructions for bracelet adjustment (the watch comes with its own, beautifully made from the correct material to not mark the link screws, screwdriver and springbar pin pusher), it specifies a drop of threadlock when replacing screws…
I wouldn't have been surprised if the instructions had specified exact torque settings to 2 decimal places for the bracelet screws. Sadly even my smallest torque wrench doesn't go down that low
And as to the last question about the domed crystal - it's not as domed as the crystal on my Breguet But it's damned close - so I'm used to it! Actually, I love the domed crystal, it's something that distinguished the Breguet for me because it smoothly integrates into the bezel and feels *really* special… so to have a very similar detail on the Sinn… I'll have to put up a comparison photo. And that says something really - what are Sinn doing in the company of Breguet?
The simple answer is that Sinn are just beyond fantastic value when it comes to complicated mechanical tool watches. Yes, their prices have crept upwards a little bit since I first discovered them but blimey not by much. And to any non-watch-geek, the fact that I've just described a £2k watch as 'fantastic value' must sound insane, or at least 'more money than sense' (in a disapproving Yorkshire accent). But compared with its own market, it's absolutely incredible. There are lots of 103 models and the basic ones are relatively inexpensive - in actual fact, the base model is £825 which, for a 7750 based chrono from a respected manufacture, is incredibly competitive. The cheapest 7750-based watches are, what, £500-£600 these days? And if you're not buying from a known, respected marque, I'd be wary of ending up with a clone movement, because Liaoning's 7750 clone is now *very* similar to the real thing, I've examined both side by side (the Sinn's 7750 is modified, I admit, but with the display back I can at least take photos and compare it to the Liaoning clone I have. I'll put the pictures in another thread, it's not entirely relevant to Sinn).
My 103 model, as is to be expected, is the most gadget-tastic with pretty much every single one of Sinn's innovations built in (short of the oil-filled movement… which only works with quartz). List all of those modifications to the base movement, then look through that sapphire crystal back at the finish of the movement, and then try to find another manufacturer or manufacture that makes watches of equal specification and quality for anywhere near the price. Sinn really are ace, when I sold the 356 I realised I needed a Sinn in the collection, and I think the titanium Diapal chrono with copper-sulphate capsule and UTC movement pretty much defines Sinn for me. To avoid further 'oooh should have bought that one…' buyer's remorse, I paid a little extra to get the model with ALL the innovations. However it very nearly wasn't as smooth as that...
I was actually going to buy the 103 Titanium UTC Ar - as pictured at the top of this thread. I didn't see the Diapal version hidden underneath on Neil's site, primarily because the picture showed the Diapal version on a leather strap. Luckily for me, good old andy_s mentioned Diapal in his first reply, which got me checking the site again. Had I bought the non-Diapal, I'd then have been thinking 'damn, should have got the Diapal' constantly afterwards. Just to make sure, Andy posted again with a nudge 'the Diapal version, something genuinely upgraded from the stock 7750' and so I immediately fired off an email to Neil @ Chronomaster to ensure that the Diapal was available in titanium with a full titanium bracelet and display back and all the bells and whistles. It was. Deal done.
So a very thankful hat tip to andy_s for making sure I bought the right watch. To me, it's the 'top' Sinn - the ultimate daily-wear Sinn with all of their genuinely useful innovations that make sense for a daily wear watch. A lubricant-free escapement is genuinely useful, extending service intervals. Argon filled case with a dealer-replaceable anhydrous CuSO4 capsule is genuinely useful for a *well worn* watch, preventing fogging of the crystal even if you accidentally get a little water into the case (perhaps by accidentally not screwing the crown down fully before swimming, or perhaps by excess dynamic water pressure? Falling off a jetski, being blasted by a hose?) - the watch is 200m waterproof so perhaps these situations wouldn't allow any water into the case. But whereas automated assembly at the factory may be able to ensure the gas inside the watch is 100% dry when it leaves the manufacture, the first service will involve opening the caseback and allowing regular air into the watch. This contains, depending on local humidity, some water in the gaseous phase. Unless all Sinn servicing agents do their work in a gas chamber filled with dry argon (presumably wearing an oxygen mask to prevent asphyxiation ), servicing will leave the interior of the watch containing a minute amount of water vapour, as part of the normal composition of air. This will condense out in cold conditions and I've seen this happen with a Rolex when skiing - the water condenses on the crystal as a tiny 'fog' and this re-evaporates again back at normal atmospheric conditions (i.e. normal temperature and pressure, not -30C and zero humidity at 3800m altitude, at that top station in Zermatt where if you take the wrong piste at the junction you end up in Italy rather than Switzerland - the wind whistles across the flat bit of glacier there and it is COLD). Sinn's copper sulphate will absorb any of this and is replaceable when it's done its job. Lastly, Sinn's metallurgy expertise means their titanium has a harder surface coating. Again - titanium is easily scratched in daily wear, and I've literally wrecked a £1500 Porsche Design titanium watch (well, the bracelet - I suppose I could have it fitted with a rubber strap and sold) by not being aware just how vulnerable titanium is to scratches. Sinn have addressed this as well. All of these upgrades to the 7750 movement and 'features' and 'innovations' address *real world* scenarios - it's a real no-bulls
t watch.
Many tool watches from other manufacturers focus on functioning in the most extremes of possible use - with particular emphasis on waterproofing to extreme depths, or controlled timekeeping in extreme magnetic fields. To me, these 'features' are just bullst on a wristwatch. Humans cannot dive to 2 kilometres underwater without being squished flat, so my old IWC's impressive 2000m depth rating was simply wasted - it'll never be tested and it's never going to be needed. Rolex's Milgauss is a genuinely good looking watch (and I do personally like the GV from an aesthetic point of view) but in the real world, you don't *need* the watch to survive that level of consistent magnetic flux. And most of the scientists working on the LHC at CERN don't earn enough to own Rolexes, and hardly any of the LHC scientists are *continually* exposed to vast magnetic flux anyway. And, in all likelihood, if any scientist is near the superconducting magnets when they fire up the LHC then the fields produced are going to be way beyond anything even Rolex can shield from. The LHC needs its own *power station* to run it, and if you're using hundreds of megawatts to produce a field strong enough to contain particles at close to the speed of light inside a very long tube, it's going to be more than 'milgauss' (1000 gauss) - the LHC magnets are built to exceed 8 tesla. 8 tesla is 80,000 gauss. Sorry, Rolex, you've been pwned by the LHC. It's bullst and an effort to make a 'blokey' equivalent to the number of diamonds on your jewellery - instead of bling, equip the watch with 'EXTREME!' capabilities. I understand the marketing and it works well. But in the real world, the features on the Sinn actually add real value, as opposed to marketing value.
All this would be meaningless if it didn't appeal to the heart as well (as pointed out above by Shadowninja, as usual, a well made point) - if I wasn't a watch enthusiast then all the 'real world' benefits can be better achieved by a G-shock or similar - why bother dehumidifying a potentially-corrodable mechanical movement when you can simply remove the movement and bung in a solid-state sealed electronic unit? Why harden titanium when tough rubber on steel works just as well? And diamond pallet stones? Hah - chuck the entire mechanism away and use a radio-controlled temperature-compensated quartz module for proper timekeeping. If it's just your head you need to justify it to, mechanical watches don't really make sense unless you're in space and the level of cosmic rays / ultra high energy protons are likely to duff up the microelectronic circuit in your quartz watch…
But I *am* a watch enthusiast, and whilst the diamond pallet stones allow a lubricant-free escapement, they are also watch geek porn. Furthermore, my Sinn isn't utility over aesthetics, even though it sounds like it should be. Sinn, quite rightly, show off their *properly* modified 7750. Many watch marques use 7750s and charge a fortune without making any genuine 'upgrades' - early Hublot Big Bang 7750s were pretty much indistinguishable from Liaoning's clone of the movement, hence the number of fakes. Diapal is a *real* innovation - so Sinn equipped my watch with a sapphire caseback. And it's anti-reflective coated too, but only on the inside because the outside would get scratched by the real-world use of the watch. Display backs are for watch geeks and I am very impressed with the level of finish that Sinn have done with their modified 7750s - it's no Vacheron but given the cost of all the other upgrades, and the base cost of the 7750 from the Swatch Group, final aesthetic finishing of the movement would seem unlikely given the 'real-world' tool watch features and the budget. But they've made it look gorgeous as well - yeah, it's a 7750 so not the world's most beautiful automatic chrono but it's still good to look at. None of my other watches (other than a roughy-toughy Seiko neo-Monster with an anthracite PVD case, oddly, showing the undecorated 7S36 movement, and the shocker skeleton Swatch showing both sides of the entirely unfinished 2841-1 movement, a shocker purely due to its phenomenally low price for a Swiss mechanical automatic, and IIRC no longer made?) have display backs showing attractive movements within, and I'd LOVE some of them to - since the internals of some of the watches are gorgeous… This Sinn appeals to my heart too, more so than I expected (I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't, but I wasn't expecting it to feel as 'precious' as it does, regardless of its obvious toughness)…
I reckon it's the best Sinn chrono and whilst I fancied the Arktis, after thinking a bit it was clear that the only appeal of the Arktis over the 356 I just sold was the colour of the dial. The only other model I still desire and would love to own is the EZM1, but that's not a regular Sinn model - it's a limited edition based on a discontinued Lemania movement. I love the chrono pushers on the left and the all-central chrono hands - no subdials! - it's a genuinely special piece, again in titanium with a domed sapphire crystal… but it's not a 'special daily wear'. It's a 'keep in the collection to admire and wear occasionally' - an appreciating watch. Try finding one for sale, too - I just did, and could find only one on chrono24 up at £2842.
Not everyone likes the 5100 Lemania in that watch either, and as a 'tactical' piece there's some of the 'heart' lost by being purely functional with a solid caseback and very simple detailing for absolute legibility. The all-central chrono is pretty unique though these days, very cool 
But back to my regular production watch… I love it. The only thing that betrays its price is the clasp - stiff, pressed metal that relies on friction and having been opened around 6 times now, is already scratching up around the security double clip. The Tudor has 4 sprung pearls that fit into machined recesses in a machined-from-solid clasp section and the closing and flip-lock action of the clasp is silky-smooth. Then again, the Tudor uses an ETA 2892 with Dubois-Dépraz chrono module, and I don't think the 2892 is the Chronometer variant otherwise Tudor would be claiming 'officially certified chronometer' as Rolex do. It's a cheaper movement - with the Sinn, the money's been spent on the movement. As a result, the clasp requires force to overcome friction. This is the ONLY thing I can find 'wrong' with it - in every other respect it's fantastic. But - even with the cheap clasp (the bracelet is also 'economy' compared to, say, IWC's titanium bracelet), there's a bit of interesting detail that I haven't quite worked out and isn't actually documented… I'll put up a photo when I've got time…
Suffice to say that I'm VERY happy with this watch and it's going to get a LOT of wrist time, definitely a wise swap for the IWC.
andy_s said:
Superb, I take it that it has the solid end links - I've got the links but need the bracelet that fits them now... Captive bezel?
The movement looks very tidy - a stupid/naive question perhaps but can you actually see the Diapal bits?
It should wear light and comfortable too, how are you finding the slightly domed crystal?
Very nice choice Mr Cyberface, more pics are, of course, obligatory!
At some point I'll halt the movement (hacking function works) and see if the escapement anchor is visible - if so then I'll *definitely* be able to photograph them with this fancy lens on my camera, though I may have to wait till the weekend for natural light. I said I'd do this for Neil anyway so if it's possible I'll get it done.The movement looks very tidy - a stupid/naive question perhaps but can you actually see the Diapal bits?
It should wear light and comfortable too, how are you finding the slightly domed crystal?
Very nice choice Mr Cyberface, more pics are, of course, obligatory!
The movement is *very* nicely finished and there are LOTS of upgrades, this is no standard 7750 and I appreciate that.
Compared to the Tudor it's virtually weightless and the bracelet feels utterly flimsy and non-existent. However that's because the Tudor is a kilogram of solid steel (
OK made that up, but it's well beyond the maximum limit of my milligram scale! ) - the Sinn is NOT flimsy and it's refreshingly light. It really is one extreme to the other - whilst the Tudor manages to achieve comfort *despite* its enormous mass and substantial size, the Sinn is very comfortable to wear full stop, it's designed to be so. The interesting this is that even though it's a souped-up 7750, it's not vastly thick and doesn't get in the way of shirt cuffs like many 7750s. I don't know how they've managed it but it's anti-magnetic even without the usual soft-iron insert and obligatory fat curved caseback that makes the watch even thicker, and the sapphire display back (anti-reflective coating on inside only, more details!) is flat and contributes to the watch lying flat on the wrist. This itself is comfortable and unlike the 356, which has a curved caseback and can lie at an angle depending on how you've adjusted the strap.The lightness of the watch really exaggerates the action of the movement! You can really feel the automatic winding rotor swinging around because it's a significant proportion of the total mass of the case. The lack of mass also contributes to the lack of sound damping - you can hear the rotor very clearly. This is NOT a watch for someone who doesn't want to know what's inside and just wants to know the time
Haven't even thought about solid end links? From the photo above it doesn't look like it but I'll double check. From above the bracelet to watch interface looks machined with perfect tolerances, not like a folded sheet, but these German engineers may as well be magicians. What do you mean by 'captive bezel'?? The bezel doesn't pop off, that's for sure, but I've never had a watch that had a bezel that could escape when you weren't holding it captive… that would be somewhat annoying, no?
Speaking of "German Engineering" - it's a complete cliché, I know, and whilst the English have a fine history (mainly past glories, but we still quietly produce some of the world's finest engineers, especially in the field of motorsport) of engineering from oddly-named bridge experts to fabulously noisy and idiosyncratic boat (and train) engine designs… it's the Germans that come to mind when I think of national stereotypes. And the Sinn is incredibly 'engineered' in a way none of my other watches are. For example, this is the ONLY watch that comes with a little bottle of threadlock, and within the instructions for bracelet adjustment (the watch comes with its own, beautifully made from the correct material to not mark the link screws, screwdriver and springbar pin pusher), it specifies a drop of threadlock when replacing screws…
I wouldn't have been surprised if the instructions had specified exact torque settings to 2 decimal places for the bracelet screws. Sadly even my smallest torque wrench doesn't go down that low
And as to the last question about the domed crystal - it's not as domed as the crystal on my Breguet
But it's damned close - so I'm used to it! Actually, I love the domed crystal, it's something that distinguished the Breguet for me because it smoothly integrates into the bezel and feels *really* special… so to have a very similar detail on the Sinn… I'll have to put up a comparison photo. And that says something really - what are Sinn doing in the company of Breguet?The simple answer is that Sinn are just beyond fantastic value when it comes to complicated mechanical tool watches. Yes, their prices have crept upwards a little bit since I first discovered them but blimey not by much. And to any non-watch-geek, the fact that I've just described a £2k watch as 'fantastic value' must sound insane, or at least 'more money than sense' (in a disapproving Yorkshire accent). But compared with its own market, it's absolutely incredible. There are lots of 103 models and the basic ones are relatively inexpensive - in actual fact, the base model is £825 which, for a 7750 based chrono from a respected manufacture, is incredibly competitive. The cheapest 7750-based watches are, what, £500-£600 these days? And if you're not buying from a known, respected marque, I'd be wary of ending up with a clone movement, because Liaoning's 7750 clone is now *very* similar to the real thing, I've examined both side by side (the Sinn's 7750 is modified, I admit, but with the display back I can at least take photos and compare it to the Liaoning clone I have. I'll put the pictures in another thread, it's not entirely relevant to Sinn).
My 103 model, as is to be expected, is the most gadget-tastic with pretty much every single one of Sinn's innovations built in (short of the oil-filled movement… which only works with quartz). List all of those modifications to the base movement, then look through that sapphire crystal back at the finish of the movement, and then try to find another manufacturer or manufacture that makes watches of equal specification and quality for anywhere near the price. Sinn really are ace, when I sold the 356 I realised I needed a Sinn in the collection, and I think the titanium Diapal chrono with copper-sulphate capsule and UTC movement pretty much defines Sinn for me. To avoid further 'oooh should have bought that one…' buyer's remorse, I paid a little extra to get the model with ALL the innovations. However it very nearly wasn't as smooth as that...
I was actually going to buy the 103 Titanium UTC Ar - as pictured at the top of this thread. I didn't see the Diapal version hidden underneath on Neil's site, primarily because the picture showed the Diapal version on a leather strap. Luckily for me, good old andy_s mentioned Diapal in his first reply, which got me checking the site again. Had I bought the non-Diapal, I'd then have been thinking 'damn, should have got the Diapal' constantly afterwards. Just to make sure, Andy posted again with a nudge 'the Diapal version, something genuinely upgraded from the stock 7750' and so I immediately fired off an email to Neil @ Chronomaster to ensure that the Diapal was available in titanium with a full titanium bracelet and display back and all the bells and whistles. It was. Deal done.
So a very thankful hat tip to andy_s for making sure I bought the right watch. To me, it's the 'top' Sinn - the ultimate daily-wear Sinn with all of their genuinely useful innovations that make sense for a daily wear watch. A lubricant-free escapement is genuinely useful, extending service intervals. Argon filled case with a dealer-replaceable anhydrous CuSO4 capsule is genuinely useful for a *well worn* watch, preventing fogging of the crystal even if you accidentally get a little water into the case (perhaps by accidentally not screwing the crown down fully before swimming, or perhaps by excess dynamic water pressure? Falling off a jetski, being blasted by a hose?) - the watch is 200m waterproof so perhaps these situations wouldn't allow any water into the case. But whereas automated assembly at the factory may be able to ensure the gas inside the watch is 100% dry when it leaves the manufacture, the first service will involve opening the caseback and allowing regular air into the watch. This contains, depending on local humidity, some water in the gaseous phase. Unless all Sinn servicing agents do their work in a gas chamber filled with dry argon (presumably wearing an oxygen mask to prevent asphyxiation
), servicing will leave the interior of the watch containing a minute amount of water vapour, as part of the normal composition of air. This will condense out in cold conditions and I've seen this happen with a Rolex when skiing - the water condenses on the crystal as a tiny 'fog' and this re-evaporates again back at normal atmospheric conditions (i.e. normal temperature and pressure, not -30C and zero humidity at 3800m altitude, at that top station in Zermatt where if you take the wrong piste at the junction you end up in Italy rather than Switzerland - the wind whistles across the flat bit of glacier there and it is COLD). Sinn's copper sulphate will absorb any of this and is replaceable when it's done its job. Lastly, Sinn's metallurgy expertise means their titanium has a harder surface coating. Again - titanium is easily scratched in daily wear, and I've literally wrecked a £1500 Porsche Design titanium watch (well, the bracelet - I suppose I could have it fitted with a rubber strap and sold) by not being aware just how vulnerable titanium is to scratches. Sinn have addressed this as well. All of these upgrades to the 7750 movement and 'features' and 'innovations' address *real world* scenarios - it's a real no-bullst watch.Many tool watches from other manufacturers focus on functioning in the most extremes of possible use - with particular emphasis on waterproofing to extreme depths, or controlled timekeeping in extreme magnetic fields. To me, these 'features' are just bulls
t on a wristwatch. Humans cannot dive to 2 kilometres underwater without being squished flat, so my old IWC's impressive 2000m depth rating was simply wasted - it'll never be tested and it's never going to be needed. Rolex's Milgauss is a genuinely good looking watch (and I do personally like the GV from an aesthetic point of view) but in the real world, you don't *need* the watch to survive that level of consistent magnetic flux. And most of the scientists working on the LHC at CERN don't earn enough to own Rolexes, and hardly any of the LHC scientists are *continually* exposed to vast magnetic flux anyway. And, in all likelihood, if any scientist is near the superconducting magnets when they fire up the LHC then the fields produced are going to be way beyond anything even Rolex can shield from. The LHC needs its own *power station* to run it, and if you're using hundreds of megawatts to produce a field strong enough to contain particles at close to the speed of light inside a very long tube, it's going to be more than 'milgauss' (1000 gauss) - the LHC magnets are built to exceed 8 tesla. 8 tesla is 80,000 gauss. Sorry, Rolex, you've been pwned by the LHC. It's bullst and an effort to make a 'blokey' equivalent to the number of diamonds on your jewellery - instead of bling, equip the watch with 'EXTREME!' capabilities. I understand the marketing and it works well. But in the real world, the features on the Sinn actually add real value, as opposed to marketing value.All this would be meaningless if it didn't appeal to the heart as well (as pointed out above by Shadowninja, as usual, a well made point) - if I wasn't a watch enthusiast then all the 'real world' benefits can be better achieved by a G-shock or similar - why bother dehumidifying a potentially-corrodable mechanical movement when you can simply remove the movement and bung in a solid-state sealed electronic unit? Why harden titanium when tough rubber on steel works just as well? And diamond pallet stones? Hah - chuck the entire mechanism away and use a radio-controlled temperature-compensated quartz module for proper timekeeping. If it's just your head you need to justify it to, mechanical watches don't really make sense unless you're in space and the level of cosmic rays / ultra high energy protons are likely to duff up the microelectronic circuit in your quartz watch…
But I *am* a watch enthusiast, and whilst the diamond pallet stones allow a lubricant-free escapement, they are also watch geek porn. Furthermore, my Sinn isn't utility over aesthetics, even though it sounds like it should be. Sinn, quite rightly, show off their *properly* modified 7750. Many watch marques use 7750s and charge a fortune without making any genuine 'upgrades' - early Hublot Big Bang 7750s were pretty much indistinguishable from Liaoning's clone of the movement, hence the number of fakes. Diapal is a *real* innovation - so Sinn equipped my watch with a sapphire caseback. And it's anti-reflective coated too, but only on the inside because the outside would get scratched by the real-world use of the watch. Display backs are for watch geeks and I am very impressed with the level of finish that Sinn have done with their modified 7750s - it's no Vacheron but given the cost of all the other upgrades, and the base cost of the 7750 from the Swatch Group, final aesthetic finishing of the movement would seem unlikely given the 'real-world' tool watch features and the budget. But they've made it look gorgeous as well - yeah, it's a 7750 so not the world's most beautiful automatic chrono but it's still good to look at. None of my other watches (other than a roughy-toughy Seiko neo-Monster with an anthracite PVD case, oddly, showing the undecorated 7S36 movement, and the shocker skeleton Swatch showing both sides of the entirely unfinished 2841-1 movement, a shocker purely due to its phenomenally low price for a Swiss mechanical automatic, and IIRC no longer made?) have display backs showing attractive movements within, and I'd LOVE some of them to - since the internals of some of the watches are gorgeous… This Sinn appeals to my heart too, more so than I expected (I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't, but I wasn't expecting it to feel as 'precious' as it does, regardless of its obvious toughness)…
I reckon it's the best Sinn chrono and whilst I fancied the Arktis, after thinking a bit it was clear that the only appeal of the Arktis over the 356 I just sold was the colour of the dial. The only other model I still desire and would love to own is the EZM1, but that's not a regular Sinn model - it's a limited edition based on a discontinued Lemania movement. I love the chrono pushers on the left and the all-central chrono hands - no subdials! - it's a genuinely special piece, again in titanium with a domed sapphire crystal… but it's not a 'special daily wear'. It's a 'keep in the collection to admire and wear occasionally' - an appreciating watch. Try finding one for sale, too - I just did, and could find only one on chrono24 up at £2842.
Not everyone likes the 5100 Lemania in that watch either, and as a 'tactical' piece there's some of the 'heart' lost by being purely functional with a solid caseback and very simple detailing for absolute legibility. The all-central chrono is pretty unique though these days, very cool But back to my regular production watch… I love it. The only thing that betrays its price is the clasp - stiff, pressed metal that relies on friction and having been opened around 6 times now, is already scratching up around the security double clip. The Tudor has 4 sprung pearls that fit into machined recesses in a machined-from-solid clasp section and the closing and flip-lock action of the clasp is silky-smooth. Then again, the Tudor uses an ETA 2892 with Dubois-Dépraz chrono module, and I don't think the 2892 is the Chronometer variant otherwise Tudor would be claiming 'officially certified chronometer' as Rolex do. It's a cheaper movement - with the Sinn, the money's been spent on the movement. As a result, the clasp requires force to overcome friction. This is the ONLY thing I can find 'wrong' with it - in every other respect it's fantastic. But - even with the cheap clasp (the bracelet is also 'economy' compared to, say, IWC's titanium bracelet), there's a bit of interesting detail that I haven't quite worked out and isn't actually documented… I'll put up a photo when I've got time…
Suffice to say that I'm VERY happy with this watch and it's going to get a LOT of wrist time, definitely a wise swap for the IWC.
Phew, glad you like it!
Crystal profiles - have a look at the progressive EZM1 (3H, Ar and LE variants) - see how Sinn have slowly come down in depth of crystal profile? I like the slight dome on mine and presumably yours is the same - the slice of crystal is thicker and machining more expensive but I think it gives a better look and feel than a flat crystal - especially from a reflections perspective.
Captive Bezel - have a look at the pic again and you'll see that the first two (l2r) have a normal bezel that 'lips' slightly proud of the case; as most bezels are push-fit then they can also be 'push-unfit', to try to stop this some makers use various ways of securing the bezel - the last one in the pic has a small screw (one of 4) that is put in to stop the bezel flipping off after a hard knock.
CuSO4 Capsule - just out of interest here is an old 103 unserviced from '95 - it's at about 50% saturation according to the tables at Sinn -
The solid end links were only recently added to the Sinn 103 stable (iirc) so I think yours should be - I've a spare set but need a Ti 'Grosse' bracelet to go with them...)
The Argon fill prevents oxygen being in the watch case - therefore preventing oxidation, either of oil or metals. This in conjunction with the copper sulphate crystal which absorbs the micro-moisture otherwise present (which you correctly cite as being the cause of fogging) are great wee additions of engineering. I think whatever oil is used in yours will also be a Sinn propriety oil which has a wider temperature performance range. I agree that all these are 'good to haves' rather than 'must haves' - it's good to know that little tweaks have been made to genuinely try to increase the 'performance'. These aren't particularly heavily marketed features either, you have to hunt them down a bit and then understand them!
Here's a hand-wound 103 Valjoux 7760 for interest:
(Menno/ATG)
Anyway - super watch and agree it is top of the tree chez Sinn, their U1000 is also technically interesting but lacks the finition of the 103 in my very humble opinion. Very pleased you like it and had a good deal with Neil - looking forward to more pics and will add more as time allows.
Crystal profiles - have a look at the progressive EZM1 (3H, Ar and LE variants) - see how Sinn have slowly come down in depth of crystal profile? I like the slight dome on mine and presumably yours is the same - the slice of crystal is thicker and machining more expensive but I think it gives a better look and feel than a flat crystal - especially from a reflections perspective.
Captive Bezel - have a look at the pic again and you'll see that the first two (l2r) have a normal bezel that 'lips' slightly proud of the case; as most bezels are push-fit then they can also be 'push-unfit', to try to stop this some makers use various ways of securing the bezel - the last one in the pic has a small screw (one of 4) that is put in to stop the bezel flipping off after a hard knock.
CuSO4 Capsule - just out of interest here is an old 103 unserviced from '95 - it's at about 50% saturation according to the tables at Sinn -
The solid end links were only recently added to the Sinn 103 stable (iirc) so I think yours should be - I've a spare set but need a Ti 'Grosse' bracelet to go with them...)
The Argon fill prevents oxygen being in the watch case - therefore preventing oxidation, either of oil or metals. This in conjunction with the copper sulphate crystal which absorbs the micro-moisture otherwise present (which you correctly cite as being the cause of fogging) are great wee additions of engineering. I think whatever oil is used in yours will also be a Sinn propriety oil which has a wider temperature performance range. I agree that all these are 'good to haves' rather than 'must haves' - it's good to know that little tweaks have been made to genuinely try to increase the 'performance'. These aren't particularly heavily marketed features either, you have to hunt them down a bit and then understand them!
Here's a hand-wound 103 Valjoux 7760 for interest:
(Menno/ATG)
Anyway - super watch and agree it is top of the tree chez Sinn, their U1000 is also technically interesting but lacks the finition of the 103 in my very humble opinion. Very pleased you like it and had a good deal with Neil - looking forward to more pics and will add more as time allows.
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