Xflow 1600 on a Caterham

[fentuz]

Hi there,

My Caterham 1600GT for 1982 is fitted with a 1600 Xflow engine 84bhp ish (I believe it is the same version as the one fitted on Fiesta XR2).

As the head gasket is gone, I’m looking at increasing the power as a winter project. On the elise, to increase power, the head are usually ported and some 270 piper camshaft are fitted along with vernier.
Here and there, I read some people fit piper 285 camshaft which may required a weber swap as the std overdraft weber could be restrictive and there could be a loss of power at low RPMs.
I also want to do a Unleaded conversion at the same time.

Would it be a good idea to port this Xflow 1600, fit unleaded big valve kit? Which camshaft should be used?
Could you advise on what would be good for such engine tuning?



Regards

Bill

[Sam_68]

This thread might answer some of your questions.

Is it worth it? Well, you can take your 84bhp Crossflow to a relatively reliable and tractable 150bhp with the right work. It will cost a fair amount of money (probably not a lot different to throwing away the Crossflow and fitting a Zetec), but would obviously transform the car's performance.

[CDP]

In Locost we're getting around 80bhp from a blueprinted 1300 with a Kent "GT" cam fitted. In this state of tune they're pretty much bulletproof.

I've heard (from engine builders) 110bhp should be reliably achieved from a 1600 and much more at great expense.

The only thing I'd say about the Zetek is it is an anchor; even compared with the crossflow and may (will) ruin the handling. A Vauxhall engine is so much lighter and bell housings are available to mate with a type 9. It's more tunable too.

Alternatively the S2000 Vetec uses oil pressure for operation so they will still work even with bike carbs fitted. I don't know if it would have to conform to modern emissions though; it wouldn't but your old car might not have to. 240bhp, even with Honda's restrictive air intake.

Does anybody know what difference an engine swap makes to resale value?

[Sam_68]

CDP said:

I've heard (from engine builders) 110bhp should be reliably achieved from a 1600 and much more at great expense.

My engine (1600) was originally built for the 750 Championship and produced 112bhp at the wheels (circa 13obhp at the crank?) on a single carb (with not too exotic a spec.), but admittedly had fairly lousy road manners.

Fitting twin DCOE's transformed the manners and substantially raised the power output, but a new pair of Webers ain't cheap and buying second-hand can be a bit of a lottery.

[CDP]

Sam_68 said:

CDP said:

I've heard (from engine builders) 110bhp should be reliably achieved from a 1600 and much more at great expense.

My engine (1600) was originally built for the 750 Championship and produced 112bhp at the wheels (circa 13obhp at the crank?) on a single carb (with not too exotic a spec.), but admittedly had fairly lousy road manners.

Fitting twin DCOE's transformed the manners and substantially raised the power output, but a new pair of Webers ain't cheap and buying second-hand can be a bit of a lottery.

130bhp in a live axle 7 should be pretty entertaining on bumpy roads.

[Justin S]

CDP said:

In Locost we're getting around 80bhp from a blueprinted 1300 with a Kent "GT" cam fitted. In this state of tune they're pretty much bulletproof.

I've heard (from engine builders) 110bhp should be reliably achieved from a 1600 and much more at great expense.

The only thing I'd say about the Zetek is it is an anchor; even compared with the crossflow and may (will) ruin the handling. A Vauxhall engine is so much lighter and bell housings are available to mate with a type 9. It's more tunable too.

Alternatively the S2000 Vetec uses oil pressure for operation so they will still work even with bike carbs fitted. I don't know if it would have to conform to modern emissions though; it wouldn't but your old car might not have to. 240bhp, even with Honda's restrictive air intake.

Does anybody know what difference an engine swap makes to resale value?

I can't see how a cast iron crossflow block and head will weigh less than a Zetec alloy head and cast block. As for bang/ buck, the crossflow can give a good amount of power as long as your bank balance is healthy. See Pumaracings info, but to get a good HP from it ( a 'true' 145 bhp) would be in the 3k area. For £600 you can get a black top new zetec engine, 1.5k would put it in the car and you would have 175 bhp easy. More efficient with throttle bodies 40 plus mpg, better all round. if you want to keep originality then stick with the crossflow. To make HP you will need to do quite a bit to it. Better CR, port the head, better cam, larger inlet valves just for 110 bhp with is a lot of effort when there are better engines around. The Vauxhall redtop is good but is getting very rare these days, although see SBD as they did a 1600 cc VX engine which looks like fun, although there is no substitute for CC's

[CDP]

Justin S said:

I can't see how a cast iron crossflow block and head will weigh less than a Zetec alloy head and cast block.

I've got a Zetec and a crossflow in my garage. Shifting them it's really obvious which one is heavier. The Vauxhall single cam is much lighter and surprisingly good, so is an Audi 5 cylinder. One of the grass trackers round here said he gets 180bhp out of a 1.4 Vauxhall without modifying the bottom end - but lots on top.

Of course a K is lightest (I can pick one up) and they're not exactly expensive and adapters are available.

Admittedly I haven't weighed any of them but the Zetec is so heavy it's barely a two man lift. I gather the Duratec isn't ridiculously heavy but think it's got a different bolt pattern.

My Locost has a COG around the gearbox with a 49:51 weight distribution, with 85 kg of me installed and half a tank of fuel.

[S47]

I swopped a twin webered 1700cc reputed 135bhp[definitely Shetland Pony's not real horses] Xflow, for a standard 2litre SIlvertop zetec on TB's, engine weights are very similar.
Xflow did 21MPG and was a GUTLESS pig to drive.
Zetec does 35MPG - oh and it has [a genuine full on]155BHP with real grunt even with the restrictive rear exit exhaust I fitted to my genuine Lotus7 [to retain the original looks], and road manners are better, and it starts first time everytime and it uses Unleaded fuel, and it loks much better underbonnet compared to the Xflow.
>
It's a no brainer IMO GET A ZETEC

Edited by S47 on Tuesday 9th November 16:26

Edited by S47 on Tuesday 9th November 16:28

[Mr2Mike]

CDP said:

The only thing I'd say about the Zetek is it is an anchor; even compared with the crossflow and may (will) ruin the handling. A Vauxhall engine is so much lighter and bell housings are available to mate with a type 9. It's more tunable too.

The Zetec E is not an anchor, it's not much heavier than the Crossflow and significantly lighter than a C20XE. This has been covered before.

[Sam_68]

S47 said:

Xflow did 21MPG and was a GUTLESS pig to drive.

I'd suggest that your Crossflow was almost certainly badly set-up in that case.

The one criticism you can't level against the Crossflow (and other 'old fashioned' 2-valve engines like the Fiat Twin Cam and Lotus Twin Cam) is that they feel 'gutless' compared to the modern 4-valve jobs.

Engines like the K-series and Zetec certainly produce the power, but they do so at high revs in a very linear and characterless fashion... I find that, by and large, well set-up 2-valve engines feel a lot torquier in the mid-range.

[fentuz]

Thanks for your replies.

I forgot to mention that I want to keep the original Weber 32DGAV Carb.
I guess the question is what type of "low cost" tuning I can do while I have the head removed and convert to unleaded.

I read these "big power increase" and I'm not sure this would be suitable.

1st thing to find out, which camshaftprofile is the most suitable 270 or 285? what is the difference between the 1600GT camshaft and piper 270???

2nd thing,what does need to be ugraded considering the camshaft ant the unleaded conversion.

[Sam_68]

fentuz said:

I forgot to mention that I want to keep the original Weber 32DGAV Carb.

That will severely restrict your power output and, in my (limited) experience, make it quite difficult to achieve good road manners with the hotter camshafts being suggested... they have too much overlap to give a good 'signal' to a carb as basic as the DGAV at low revs, hence it will tend to spit and fart and generally not do much until the engine comes on cam at 3,500rpm or whatever, when it will suddenly clear its throat and take off.

DCOE's offer much more flexible (tunable) and progressive fueling, so don't present anything like the same difficulties.

[davepoth]

You've got this a bit arse about face - the carb should be the first thing you swap out really, as you can get a pretty decent power increase from a bolt on part. Weber 38 DGAS will do the job nicely.

[Mr2Mike]

A set of 1300 pistons is a good start to raise the CR, new sets occasionally come up on eBay for reasonable money. Ditching the clockwork ignition and fitting a mapped system (e.g. "Megajolt" for a lower budget option) is also a good move, as is getting shot of the 32DGAV.

[Pushrod-Power]

Sam_68 said:

fentuz said:

I forgot to mention that I want to keep the original Weber 32DGAV Carb.

That will severely restrict your power output and, in my (limited) experience, make it quite difficult to achieve good road manners with the hotter camshafts being suggested... they have too much overlap to give a good 'signal' to a carb as basic as the DGAV at low revs, hence it will tend to spit and fart and generally not do much until the engine comes on cam at 3,500rpm or whatever, when it will suddenly clear its throat and take off.

DCOE's offer much more flexible (tunable) and progressive fueling, so don't present anything like the same difficulties.

Been there done that spot on advice sidedraughts set up correctly turn the motor into a pussy cat even with a fairly radical cam,as mentioned already mapped ignition is def the way forward

Edited by Pushrod-Power on Thursday 18th November 09:52