Discussion
Bit of a question with no exact answer just wanted to gain some thoughts especially if there are any estate agents on here ( although their advise may be a conflict of their interests 
)
When a house comes onto the market, fairly unique for the area in size and land avaliable and no real local properties to compare against what percentage level are they really expecting to have knocked off in todays market.
The house is marketed as offers in the region of, which could mean more but im assuming its less.
For the sake of the discussion I think we should assume that the agent has set the price rather than the vendor insisting on a higher price.
I want to make an offer but dont know where to pitch it, It has only recently come onto the market and for family reasons I think they are keen to move but not desperate
)When a house comes onto the market, fairly unique for the area in size and land avaliable and no real local properties to compare against what percentage level are they really expecting to have knocked off in todays market.
The house is marketed as offers in the region of, which could mean more but im assuming its less.
For the sake of the discussion I think we should assume that the agent has set the price rather than the vendor insisting on a higher price.
I want to make an offer but dont know where to pitch it, It has only recently come onto the market and for family reasons I think they are keen to move but not desperate
This is always going to be difficult to answer without knowing an awful lot more, I'm afraid, so the quickest answer will inevitably be "I don't know/it depends/speak to the agent"
If a property genuinely has absolutely no precedent in the locality whatsoever then the vendor may choose to employ a valuation surveyor who will try their level best to figure what may be a fair market price for the property employing all sorts of wizadry to come up with a value. This may or may not be accurate or wildly incorrect depending on the very specific nature of the property and the competence or otherwise of the professional concerned.
What is much more likely is that the vendor just got one or two local agents around. The reasons for selecting these specific agents are likely to have nothing to do with their competence at finding a fair market value for the property, although it is possible they did actually value fairly.
Then you get into the nonsense that is the difference to what they believe is a fair value, the price the vendor wishes to achieve and ultimately what the market is prepared to pay. Sometimes those three are aligned. In an unusual property with an interesting motivation to sell on behalf of the vendor, coupled with a "but he was the cheapest/wore the shiniest suit" local agent at the helm the marketing price can be a joke.
I often see properties that have, in reality, been on the market for years, seemingly always valued around 30% over what I would think is a more accurate price. All agents have them on their books at one time or another, usually in the full knowledge they are seriously unlikely to receive a commission, but either feel obliged to take the business, or are too stupid to see it as a waste of time.
Honestly, I would speak to the selling agent to try to get as much info as I could. I would probably then get friendly with other agents to see what they can add. If I knew any local surveyors I'd buy them a drink too. I'd also consider the wealth of websites out there that might send me in the right direction. You may be surprised how many "unique" properties there are out there just like the one you're interested in. I would then use all this information with a ladel of salt, think of a number and take off 20%, and see what happens.
(If you are considering making a formal offer, and think you may be offering significantly under what you believe the vendors' expectations may be then proceed with caution and ensure you are in the best position to submit a low offer. Wearing scruffy jeans, shouting a scandalously low offer, not looking the agent in the eye, needing a house to sell that hasn't even been valued and requiring a 125% LTV mortgage while not having British citizenship and no disclosable income (for example) would be a poor way of going about it.)
HTH
(bit of a ramble as I grabbed five minutes between appointments when I should have been working - so no time to think before typing)
If a property genuinely has absolutely no precedent in the locality whatsoever then the vendor may choose to employ a valuation surveyor who will try their level best to figure what may be a fair market price for the property employing all sorts of wizadry to come up with a value. This may or may not be accurate or wildly incorrect depending on the very specific nature of the property and the competence or otherwise of the professional concerned.
What is much more likely is that the vendor just got one or two local agents around. The reasons for selecting these specific agents are likely to have nothing to do with their competence at finding a fair market value for the property, although it is possible they did actually value fairly.
Then you get into the nonsense that is the difference to what they believe is a fair value, the price the vendor wishes to achieve and ultimately what the market is prepared to pay. Sometimes those three are aligned. In an unusual property with an interesting motivation to sell on behalf of the vendor, coupled with a "but he was the cheapest/wore the shiniest suit" local agent at the helm the marketing price can be a joke.
I often see properties that have, in reality, been on the market for years, seemingly always valued around 30% over what I would think is a more accurate price. All agents have them on their books at one time or another, usually in the full knowledge they are seriously unlikely to receive a commission, but either feel obliged to take the business, or are too stupid to see it as a waste of time.
Honestly, I would speak to the selling agent to try to get as much info as I could. I would probably then get friendly with other agents to see what they can add. If I knew any local surveyors I'd buy them a drink too. I'd also consider the wealth of websites out there that might send me in the right direction. You may be surprised how many "unique" properties there are out there just like the one you're interested in. I would then use all this information with a ladel of salt, think of a number and take off 20%, and see what happens.
(If you are considering making a formal offer, and think you may be offering significantly under what you believe the vendors' expectations may be then proceed with caution and ensure you are in the best position to submit a low offer. Wearing scruffy jeans, shouting a scandalously low offer, not looking the agent in the eye, needing a house to sell that hasn't even been valued and requiring a 125% LTV mortgage while not having British citizenship and no disclosable income (for example) would be a poor way of going about it.)
HTH
(bit of a ramble as I grabbed five minutes between appointments when I should have been working - so no time to think before typing)
Go low and the worst they can say is f
k off. 
There is no right answer as it all depends on whether it has been priced correctly in the first place, what part of the country it is in, how many other properties in the same price bracket/mould. So really how long is a piece of string.
At work 4 colleagues and myself are all in the process of buying new houses. One knocked £85k off, another £60k, another £50k, myself £20k and one paid full asking price (as it was competively priced already, quite unique and she didn't want to lose it)
k off. There is no right answer as it all depends on whether it has been priced correctly in the first place, what part of the country it is in, how many other properties in the same price bracket/mould. So really how long is a piece of string.
At work 4 colleagues and myself are all in the process of buying new houses. One knocked £85k off, another £60k, another £50k, myself £20k and one paid full asking price (as it was competively priced already, quite unique and she didn't want to lose it)
If the house has recently come onto the market then the valuation takes into account the current market conditions. Why wouldn't it?
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
mk1fan said:
If the house has recently come onto the market then the valuation takes into account the current market conditions. Why wouldn't it?
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Because estate agents will say/ price anything accordingly to ensure that they get the instruction. So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Also it is not an exact science and they have been known to get it vastly wrong.mk1fan said:
If the house has recently come onto the market then the valuation takes into account the current market conditions. Why wouldn't it?
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
You assume the house is an ordinary commodity being launched to a perfect market. It is rarely thus. Many many vendors "know" the value of their property and will instruct an agent accordingly. Usually this knowledge is significantly above what the agent and or the market think. If you then toss into the equation an unusual property/unusual and unspecified motivations to sell and a less than professional agent marketing the property then it isn't inconcievable that the valuation is significantly over what the market may bear.So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
We don't know.
Herbs said:
mk1fan said:
If the house has recently come onto the market then the valuation takes into account the current market conditions. Why wouldn't it?
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Because estate agents will say/ price anything accordingly to ensure that they get the instruction. So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Also it is not an exact science and they have been known to get it vastly wrong.It does happen though if we think ultimately they aren't more trouble than they're worth or other mitigating factors come into play (like your Director wondering why the £uck you haven't listed anything this month, for example)
pugwash4x4 said:
if you're not embarrassed by your offer then you aren't low enough!
Careful, though. If you're looking for something that genuinely is unique and ticks all your boxes bear in mind that the market only has one vendor selling this good. If you pi$$ off that vendor to the point they do not want to deal with you you'll miss out. There won't be another house and another around the corner to try your luck with a second time.Thanks for the replies, I wouldnt say it is utterly unique but the size is fairly large around 7000 SQ Ft with alot of land so as you can imagine the starting price is large,
Even a few percent out could run into many thousands, apart from the size and land its a standard house not a converted windmill or water tower or somthing considered unique from that point of view.
We would be in a good posistion, large deposit no house to sell ( sorry I have the scruffy jeans ) but being very English I dont want to offer something that is taking the piss even if they are within their rights to say no personally a bad starting feeling could impact on the future discussions.
Ultimatly I know only me can decide what its worth to me and I have a figure that I feel its worth to me but thats not to say I dont want to get a great price for the purchase.
Im thinking that maybe 10% off asking would be an expected figure for any vendor / agent
Even a few percent out could run into many thousands, apart from the size and land its a standard house not a converted windmill or water tower or somthing considered unique from that point of view.
We would be in a good posistion, large deposit no house to sell ( sorry I have the scruffy jeans ) but being very English I dont want to offer something that is taking the piss even if they are within their rights to say no personally a bad starting feeling could impact on the future discussions.
Ultimatly I know only me can decide what its worth to me and I have a figure that I feel its worth to me but thats not to say I dont want to get a great price for the purchase.
Im thinking that maybe 10% off asking would be an expected figure for any vendor / agent
I've got to go now so I'll be brief (but back later to see what, if anything, happens)
If the house is just a bit big with a bit of land then I'd expect it to be relatively easy to value. So see the advice I gave earlier.
Secondly, if it is as described I would expect we're talking serious six figures or low seven figures. If that is the case then (generally speaking) there isn't an abundance of motivated and proceedable buyers at this level. Even in the "good" years there aren't all that many. As such, I'd be tempted to express an interest, get matey with the agent, see what happens, and expect 10% to be realistic. Thus, other factors being taken into account, it is unlikely I'd start at 10% under.
I'd be much more tempted to go the wait and see route. Wait for the price to come down ten percent and then offer ten percent under again, expecting to meet half way from that.
Best of luck.
I'm off to a complete dive now. Let's see what this vendor expects...
If the house is just a bit big with a bit of land then I'd expect it to be relatively easy to value. So see the advice I gave earlier.
Secondly, if it is as described I would expect we're talking serious six figures or low seven figures. If that is the case then (generally speaking) there isn't an abundance of motivated and proceedable buyers at this level. Even in the "good" years there aren't all that many. As such, I'd be tempted to express an interest, get matey with the agent, see what happens, and expect 10% to be realistic. Thus, other factors being taken into account, it is unlikely I'd start at 10% under.
I'd be much more tempted to go the wait and see route. Wait for the price to come down ten percent and then offer ten percent under again, expecting to meet half way from that.
Best of luck.
I'm off to a complete dive now. Let's see what this vendor expects...
scenario8 said:
Herbs said:
mk1fan said:
If the house has recently come onto the market then the valuation takes into account the current market conditions. Why wouldn't it?
So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Because estate agents will say/ price anything accordingly to ensure that they get the instruction. So the 'normal' house negotiation procedure should be followed. You put in an offer you feel is right for you. If they don't want to accept it, that's their right.
If the house has been on the market for ages without interest or price reduction then it's the opportunity for a lower offer.
Also it is not an exact science and they have been known to get it vastly wrong.It does happen though if we think ultimately they aren't more trouble than they're worth or other mitigating factors come into play (like your Director wondering why the £uck you haven't listed anything this month, for example)
Case in point being - I got my property valued back in July with 5 valuations (knowing full well myself what it was worth) it is a little bit unique but not massively - anyway the quotes came back as £35k under what I thought, £5k over, £0 (spot on) and one £50k over!!!
That is a difference on £85k on a property I valued at £235k. madness.....
For the eagle eyed ones amongst you - you would have noticed I only put 4 valuations down, the 5th said they had no idea, so what did I think it was worth and wat did i want it on the market for!!!
As with any business, there are good people and useless people. It is naive to think that something is definitely worth that much money purely because that is what someone else has said it is.
Most people in the house move thing idiotically want to pay much less than market value when buying and far more when selling, which very rarely works. Unless you are a property dealer a house is somewhere to live and its value is what it is worth to you. To lose something you really want for the sake of a few grand seems silly. And in any case of more significance to me would be the difference between selling and buying price. Good luck.
pollawyn said:
Most people in the house move thing idiotically want to pay much less than market value when buying and far more when selling, which very rarely works. Unless you are a property dealer a house is somewhere to live and its value is what it is worth to you. To lose something you really want for the sake of a few grand seems silly. And in any case of more significance to me would be the difference between selling and buying price. Good luck.
So trueBuy low, sell high say the thousands of Warren Buffets out there selling their's which are better than next doors because they have a new wickes takeaway bathroom and next door doesn't.
Sorry, I'm not sure I fully understand yout question, but If you mean "is it illegal for an agent to invent fictitious offers" (with a view to soliciting an offer or higher offer from another party) then "yes, it is a contravention of the EA Act 1979"
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/38
Not that I would expect every single person that works inside the offices of every estate agency in the land to be 100% aware of that text. Although I would welcome it.
A quick google will find lots of newspaper reports/blogs on the matter.
I do not doubt lots of agents will claim there is other interest in the property or will even allude to other offers - I'm not naive - but be sure to be certain that they have specifically claimed an offer has been made before getting all litigious or umpty about it. If it really is the case, and you believe the offers to be fictitious and you want to take it further I'd pop by the sellers' house and knock on the door first. The agent is under an obligation to submit all offers received in writing to the vendor (subject to not having received written specific instructions from the vendor not to do so (under a specific figure, for example). If the vendor is unaware of an offer a $hitty phonecall from them to the agent may well put the agent in their place.
If you genuinely feel the agent is acting WAY out of order I'd contact these guys
http://www.tpos.co.uk/index.htm
for a chat.
A little bit of rumour mongering in the village might keep the agent on the straight and narrow, too. As would a call to the local gazette.
However, I live in a world where sellers see agents as facilitators to "damn well get me the best price and shut up about it" and buyers want the moon on the stick at the lowest possible price. Honestly, the biggest liars and charlatans I see in this industry are the unwashed public who appear to see it as a personal challenge to educate me in the art of bull$hitting and hoodwinking on a daily basis. None of them are subject to £25,000 personal fines.
If every single agent every single day passed on the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to his/her buyers and sellers we'd see the level of transactions fall through the (almost certainly damp) floor and the level of common assaults shoot through the (wood bore infested) roof.
I don't like it, and don't do it, but the public seem to be a little disingenuous in that they seem to want the agent to be a bit of a used car salesman on the one hand, but are keen to demand very strict professionalism on the other. With respect to used car salesmen. Perhaps a light hearted comment was made in the rough and tumble of trying to solicit an offer from you (many sellers would see this as desirable and what they feel they are paying the agent to do) or perhaps it was a genuine attempt to mislead you and commit what some will see as fraud. Obviously I don't know as I wasn't there.
ETA having re-read your post it is as least as likely that you meant "the following hasn't happened, but" in which case I guess my answer is still valid. It is technically illegal. Do a bit of googling for legal rights and wrongs. But, as I allude to above, think what you might expect or hope your agent would do to help sell your property when considering morality. I'd very happily work in a much more professional industry with very possibly the majority of the current players out on their ears. Sadly I don't see the public (genuinely) wanting it.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/38
Not that I would expect every single person that works inside the offices of every estate agency in the land to be 100% aware of that text. Although I would welcome it.
A quick google will find lots of newspaper reports/blogs on the matter.
I do not doubt lots of agents will claim there is other interest in the property or will even allude to other offers - I'm not naive - but be sure to be certain that they have specifically claimed an offer has been made before getting all litigious or umpty about it. If it really is the case, and you believe the offers to be fictitious and you want to take it further I'd pop by the sellers' house and knock on the door first. The agent is under an obligation to submit all offers received in writing to the vendor (subject to not having received written specific instructions from the vendor not to do so (under a specific figure, for example). If the vendor is unaware of an offer a $hitty phonecall from them to the agent may well put the agent in their place.
If you genuinely feel the agent is acting WAY out of order I'd contact these guys
http://www.tpos.co.uk/index.htm
for a chat.
A little bit of rumour mongering in the village might keep the agent on the straight and narrow, too. As would a call to the local gazette.
However, I live in a world where sellers see agents as facilitators to "damn well get me the best price and shut up about it" and buyers want the moon on the stick at the lowest possible price. Honestly, the biggest liars and charlatans I see in this industry are the unwashed public who appear to see it as a personal challenge to educate me in the art of bull$hitting and hoodwinking on a daily basis. None of them are subject to £25,000 personal fines.
If every single agent every single day passed on the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to his/her buyers and sellers we'd see the level of transactions fall through the (almost certainly damp) floor and the level of common assaults shoot through the (wood bore infested) roof.
I don't like it, and don't do it, but the public seem to be a little disingenuous in that they seem to want the agent to be a bit of a used car salesman on the one hand, but are keen to demand very strict professionalism on the other. With respect to used car salesmen. Perhaps a light hearted comment was made in the rough and tumble of trying to solicit an offer from you (many sellers would see this as desirable and what they feel they are paying the agent to do) or perhaps it was a genuine attempt to mislead you and commit what some will see as fraud. Obviously I don't know as I wasn't there.
ETA having re-read your post it is as least as likely that you meant "the following hasn't happened, but" in which case I guess my answer is still valid. It is technically illegal. Do a bit of googling for legal rights and wrongs. But, as I allude to above, think what you might expect or hope your agent would do to help sell your property when considering morality. I'd very happily work in a much more professional industry with very possibly the majority of the current players out on their ears. Sadly I don't see the public (genuinely) wanting it.
Edited by scenario8 on Tuesday 16th November 00:55
GallardoOwner said:
Bit of a question with no exact answer just wanted to gain some thoughts especially if there are any estate agents on here ( although their advise may be a conflict of their interests )
When a house comes onto the market, fairly unique for the area in size and land avaliable and no real local properties to compare against what percentage level are they really expecting to have knocked off in todays market.
The house is marketed as offers in the region of, which could mean more but im assuming its less.
For the sake of the discussion I think we should assume that the agent has set the price rather than the vendor insisting on a higher price.
I want to make an offer but dont know where to pitch it, It has only recently come onto the market and for family reasons I think they are keen to move but not desperate
Assume makes an ass out of U and Me. )When a house comes onto the market, fairly unique for the area in size and land avaliable and no real local properties to compare against what percentage level are they really expecting to have knocked off in todays market.
The house is marketed as offers in the region of, which could mean more but im assuming its less.
For the sake of the discussion I think we should assume that the agent has set the price rather than the vendor insisting on a higher price.
I want to make an offer but dont know where to pitch it, It has only recently come onto the market and for family reasons I think they are keen to move but not desperate
There's no point trying to guess what they want. They might not even know.
Put in an offer lower than what you can afford. And make it a serious offer. That will change their perspective of what they were expecting.
So, if the estate agent has told them it is £700k and they have an offer of £500k, they will start doubting the agent's valuation. Even more so if they doubted it beforehand.
Then, if they reject, put in another offer a small increment higher. Like £505k. That will change their expectation too.
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