Discussion
I am hosting a pre Christmas, Christmas dinner for some friends next weekend. I've decided to do a multibird roast and i'm going to butcher/ bone all of the birds and build the joint myself.
Before anyone says that it would be better to do them separately or do something different altogether- i’ve already sold myself on the idea- i’ve always wanted to give it a go and this is the perfect excuse. If it turns out horrible i’ll take it on the chin but i’d like to at least have tried it. That said i will do everything i can to get it right.
So far I am thinking 3.5kg Aylesbury Duck, then guinea foul, then pheasant, then (red legged) partridge and finally a snipe or similar.
I have discussed it with my butcher who recons that it would be fine to plonk all of those birds inside each other without the need to skin them. I’m not 100% sold on this idea but i’ll take his word for it unless anyone else can tell me different.
For the above reason i have chosen not to have any birds that are too fatty in the centre as the fat/ skin of something like a mallard or another small duck would be unpleasant unless crisped up. This does however leave me with a problem of maintaining moisture inside the bird. I wasn’t going to use stuffing but i may be persuaded otherwise. I was thinking of barding it with butter in-between the layers to aid moisture? Does anyone have any experience doing this?
My cooking method was going to be a few hours at 140dc until the internal temperature reaches the desired level (using meat thermometer) i think probably around 6hrs as i think the boned out bird(s) will weigh about 4.5 to 5kg? and then blasting it to crisp up the skin. Does anyone have any experience of cooking this kind of thing?
Any comments/ advice/ abuse is greatly appreciated
Cheers
Pete
Before anyone says that it would be better to do them separately or do something different altogether- i’ve already sold myself on the idea- i’ve always wanted to give it a go and this is the perfect excuse. If it turns out horrible i’ll take it on the chin but i’d like to at least have tried it. That said i will do everything i can to get it right.
So far I am thinking 3.5kg Aylesbury Duck, then guinea foul, then pheasant, then (red legged) partridge and finally a snipe or similar.
I have discussed it with my butcher who recons that it would be fine to plonk all of those birds inside each other without the need to skin them. I’m not 100% sold on this idea but i’ll take his word for it unless anyone else can tell me different.
For the above reason i have chosen not to have any birds that are too fatty in the centre as the fat/ skin of something like a mallard or another small duck would be unpleasant unless crisped up. This does however leave me with a problem of maintaining moisture inside the bird. I wasn’t going to use stuffing but i may be persuaded otherwise. I was thinking of barding it with butter in-between the layers to aid moisture? Does anyone have any experience doing this?
My cooking method was going to be a few hours at 140dc until the internal temperature reaches the desired level (using meat thermometer) i think probably around 6hrs as i think the boned out bird(s) will weigh about 4.5 to 5kg? and then blasting it to crisp up the skin. Does anyone have any experience of cooking this kind of thing?
Any comments/ advice/ abuse is greatly appreciated
Cheers
Pete
If I were going to try that, I think I would debone them all first, and with the skins of each bird left on, I'd cook low and slow.
The fat should render out but keep it all moist. Good seasoning and an interesting stuffing running throughout would be a good idea too.
Easy to carve too. Can you imagine the pile of bones on your guests' plates if you left them in?!
The fat should render out but keep it all moist. Good seasoning and an interesting stuffing running throughout would be a good idea too.
Easy to carve too. Can you imagine the pile of bones on your guests' plates if you left them in?!
Edited by pacman1 on Thursday 18th November 16:57
pacman1 said:
Can you imagine the pile of bones on your guests' plates if you left them in?!
Definately deboning them and de-tendoning them as well.Edited by pacman1 on Thursday 18th November 16:57
regarding stuffing i was going to do some but on the side. what benefit does stuffing have to the texture of the meat if any? does it help with moisture?
Shaw Tarse said:
1:I'd have thought the birds would be better skinned.
2: What time should we all arrive?
that was my initial thought too but the butcher (who i trust) thinks otherwise.2: What time should we all arrive?
Re the stuffing. It would need to enhance but not overpower. Might be worth experimenting with some combinations first.
I'd certainly add the meat from a couple of good pork sausages to the mix, and I usually grate an apple or pear to add moisture, a little sweetness and encourage cooking via steam from within. Never done so before but in keeping with the theme, but how about adding some finely chopped quails eggs as well?
I'd certainly add the meat from a couple of good pork sausages to the mix, and I usually grate an apple or pear to add moisture, a little sweetness and encourage cooking via steam from within. Never done so before but in keeping with the theme, but how about adding some finely chopped quails eggs as well?
Edited by pacman1 on Thursday 18th November 17:28
Not done the "bird in a bird" but my thoughts...
I can see the point in leaving the skin on but I don't think it would eat very well. Skin won't disintegrate and you'll be left with flaps of soggy white skin which will look nasty and be a different texture to the meat so will feel even worse in the mouth. Soft meat with slimy flappy bits... not good.
I would be tempted to bard the inner birds with tinned goose fat before assembly and use a good quality meat based stuffing in the middle. I wouldn't use a bread based stuffing as it will absorb a huge amount of fat from the birds.
As you suggest, very slow cook and a blast to colour it. I'd seal the whole thing in cling so it steams in it's own juices or at least wrap in foil. I regularly cook 4kg+ stuffed turkey breasts this way.
I can see the point in leaving the skin on but I don't think it would eat very well. Skin won't disintegrate and you'll be left with flaps of soggy white skin which will look nasty and be a different texture to the meat so will feel even worse in the mouth. Soft meat with slimy flappy bits... not good.
I would be tempted to bard the inner birds with tinned goose fat before assembly and use a good quality meat based stuffing in the middle. I wouldn't use a bread based stuffing as it will absorb a huge amount of fat from the birds.
As you suggest, very slow cook and a blast to colour it. I'd seal the whole thing in cling so it steams in it's own juices or at least wrap in foil. I regularly cook 4kg+ stuffed turkey breasts this way.
I've done this before, definitely skin off for cooking, but de-bone with the skin on.
I think it needs a good sausagemeat and leg meat stuffing with dried apricots and about 40-60 mins resting time after cooking.
When I cooked mine, I made a tinfoil 'tent' around the roasting tray.
I think it needs a good sausagemeat and leg meat stuffing with dried apricots and about 40-60 mins resting time after cooking.
When I cooked mine, I made a tinfoil 'tent' around the roasting tray.
Edited by Tumbler on Thursday 18th November 18:44
Good feedback there.
Still undecided about the skinning isue. I have read a bit on molecular gastronomy but not really touched on skin. what happens when it is cooked very long and slow? i assume it wont break down. i cant really take the risk of it being texturally grim as some of my guests are likely to be a bit wimpy about this.
I like the idea of using goose fat on every layer- a better/ more appropriate alternative to butter which I had already considered.
I wasnt going to stuff it, as I'm concerned that if it is stuffed, the smaller birds would get a bit lost. However I'm open to the idea. as said before it would need to be very complementary. maybe if i did a thin layer of stuffing in between say the pheasant and the guinea fowl and then the partridge and the snipe then i would end up with concentric layers. is there any benefit on having stuffing right in the middle? i could also stuff the duck legs to fill them out.
i need a tried and tested stuffing recipe to try out beforehand. any further ideas for the recipe?
@21kTony: what temp will clingfilm endure before it disintegrates/ melts? its a good idea but i've never cooked like this in an oven.
I have the whole day off next friday to prepare so i should be able to do a reaonable job. I'll take some pics as i go if anyone is interested.
Thanks
Pete
Still undecided about the skinning isue. I have read a bit on molecular gastronomy but not really touched on skin. what happens when it is cooked very long and slow? i assume it wont break down. i cant really take the risk of it being texturally grim as some of my guests are likely to be a bit wimpy about this.
I like the idea of using goose fat on every layer- a better/ more appropriate alternative to butter which I had already considered.
I wasnt going to stuff it, as I'm concerned that if it is stuffed, the smaller birds would get a bit lost. However I'm open to the idea. as said before it would need to be very complementary. maybe if i did a thin layer of stuffing in between say the pheasant and the guinea fowl and then the partridge and the snipe then i would end up with concentric layers. is there any benefit on having stuffing right in the middle? i could also stuff the duck legs to fill them out.
i need a tried and tested stuffing recipe to try out beforehand. any further ideas for the recipe?
@21kTony: what temp will clingfilm endure before it disintegrates/ melts? its a good idea but i've never cooked like this in an oven.
I have the whole day off next friday to prepare so i should be able to do a reaonable job. I'll take some pics as i go if anyone is interested.
Thanks
Pete
For your combination do you actually know how long it needs to cook for? No point guessing it is 6 hours if it is actually going to be 8 and everyone is sitting there waiting whilst your thermometer reads 81C, 82C ... 83C.
If you don't actually know how long it will take worrying about skin on or off will be the least of your worries.
I'd cheat, I'd cook each bird first by slow simmering apart from the outer one. This keeps all the moisture in and makes sure it will be cooked, then ram them all together whilst still hot and put them in the uncooked outer bird, cook this for the same time it says it should be roasted.
That's the only way I would attempt it anyway.
Andy
PS Top marks for trying it and not being deviated ... photo's would be a first here!
If you don't actually know how long it will take worrying about skin on or off will be the least of your worries.
I'd cheat, I'd cook each bird first by slow simmering apart from the outer one. This keeps all the moisture in and makes sure it will be cooked, then ram them all together whilst still hot and put them in the uncooked outer bird, cook this for the same time it says it should be roasted.
That's the only way I would attempt it anyway.
Andy
PS Top marks for trying it and not being deviated ... photo's would be a first here!
Edited by zakelwe on Thursday 18th November 20:23
I have been looking at a few recepies and all seem to discard the skin
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-502605/It-...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-502605/It-...
This one leaves the skin on and stuffing between each bird
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth...
zakelwe said:
For your combination do you actually know how long it needs to cook for? No point guessing it is 6 hours if it is actually going to be 8 and everyone is sitting there waiting whilst your thermometer reads 81C, 82C ... 83C.
If you don't actually know how long it will take worrying about skin on or off will be the least of your worries.
I'd cheat, I'd cook each bird first by slow simmering apart from the outer one. This keeps all the moisture in and makes sure it will be cooked, then ram them all together whilst still hot and put them in the uncooked outer bird, cook this for the same time it says it should be roasted.
That's the only way I would attempt it anyway.
Andy
PS Top marks for trying it and not being deviated ... photo's would be a first here!
this is a major concern i agreeIf you don't actually know how long it will take worrying about skin on or off will be the least of your worries.
I'd cheat, I'd cook each bird first by slow simmering apart from the outer one. This keeps all the moisture in and makes sure it will be cooked, then ram them all together whilst still hot and put them in the uncooked outer bird, cook this for the same time it says it should be roasted.
That's the only way I would attempt it anyway.
Andy
PS Top marks for trying it and not being deviated ... photo's would be a first here!
Edited by zakelwe on Thursday 18th November 20:23
Although a novel idea i'm not going to go down the pre-cook route. I cant explain it, it just doesn't sit right with me. if needs be i'll get scientific and do some calculations. Also I am seriously considering going down the sousvide route, although i'd look like a total prat if that failed
@Cotty thanks for the link especially the guardian one- that video is really helpful
Temp wise I cook in cling up to 90-100 degrees C although it will withstand a lot more, up to about 200 from memory.
I'll take the breasts off a 15lb turkey, stuff and roll them, shape in cling to something presentable then cook at 80 degrees for 4-5 hours. Cool a bit, remove the cling then blast at 220 for 15-20 minutes to get the colour. The result is a stuffed breast with juices still flowing from it but a nice golden crispy skin which people like to look at.
In fact, I have one being delivered tomorrow but I doubt pics of me boning out something akin to a pterodactyl is of any use!
I'll take the breasts off a 15lb turkey, stuff and roll them, shape in cling to something presentable then cook at 80 degrees for 4-5 hours. Cool a bit, remove the cling then blast at 220 for 15-20 minutes to get the colour. The result is a stuffed breast with juices still flowing from it but a nice golden crispy skin which people like to look at.
In fact, I have one being delivered tomorrow but I doubt pics of me boning out something akin to a pterodactyl is of any use!
I know precooking sounds like a bit of a cop out, so if you go without it I really think someone needs to give you the timings for your selection of birds so you can have it timed right for your party. Ideally you should have had a trial run even though that is expensive. Have you got time to buy extra tomorrow and cook?
Are you cutting into it at the table or in the kitchen?
Andy
Are you cutting into it at the table or in the kitchen?
Andy
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