mid engined RWD and poor weather - RACELOGIC help!
Discussion
Okay guys to summarise I have an MR2 roadster which is turbo'd putting out 230bhp/205lb/ft. Its plenty quick but I've only ever driven FWD hot hatches. I had a very bad scare in it a few weeks back. Poor weather, cold rainy and I was too happy with the throttle and before I knew it I was off the road. Thankfully no damage or injury was caused but only due to blind luck. I have done a lot of research on Mid RWD cars so I know the theory of what to do what not to do and when I had the scare I was not driving like an idiot, was just a case of poor grip and turbo comming on chat that did it. But I was amazed at how fast the car spun and even when I corrected it just snap oversteered the opposite way.
Now the problem is I have to drive my car in all weathers,and I am seriously considering getting rid of it which will mean me loosing around £5K on the car and the turbo if I do! I have considered professional training but I've read so many horror stories where even track experienced trained drivers have binned MR2s S2000 boxters etc.. in the wet, it seems the nature of these cars makes them high risk in poor weather on UK roads.
I've heard of Racelogic and its looking like my last resort before I sell up and go back to FWD. I know it works by preventing the rears slipping by cutting injectors, but I also know it can't brake the wheels independantly like more advanced stability systems can (eg Ford ESP). Have any of you guys had experience of it or similar systems on RWD cars? Can it only correct power oversteer situations or is good for other nasty situations like, ice, standing water, pot holes etc.. anything that can screw up the handling even if the driver wasn't using too much power.
Now the problem is I have to drive my car in all weathers,and I am seriously considering getting rid of it which will mean me loosing around £5K on the car and the turbo if I do! I have considered professional training but I've read so many horror stories where even track experienced trained drivers have binned MR2s S2000 boxters etc.. in the wet, it seems the nature of these cars makes them high risk in poor weather on UK roads.
I've heard of Racelogic and its looking like my last resort before I sell up and go back to FWD. I know it works by preventing the rears slipping by cutting injectors, but I also know it can't brake the wheels independantly like more advanced stability systems can (eg Ford ESP). Have any of you guys had experience of it or similar systems on RWD cars? Can it only correct power oversteer situations or is good for other nasty situations like, ice, standing water, pot holes etc.. anything that can screw up the handling even if the driver wasn't using too much power.
Winter Tyres would be my first purchase, they are not just for snow but a lot better in wet and cold conditions..... get a cheap set of OEM alloys to put them on for winter use and you're probably looking at around £500 (the smallest diameter you can get away with without going to narrow)
Selling the car is a bit extreme, and the comment about people binning S2000s is, I think, largely exaggerated. It is true that a reasonably powerful RWD car will be tail happy in less than ideal conditions and your driving style needs to adapt to it. I got a bit of a fright in my TVR when I first got it then realised it was just my driving style that was at fault, it's very different from FWD, even a performance FWD is pretty easy to handle in difficult conditions.
Get yourself out on an airfield track day in over the winter. Once you are use to how they behave in limited grip conditions and when the throttle / steering inputs can cause issue then you'll adjust your driving style appropriately. I've had mid engined cars as daily drivers for almost a decade now and never had an issue and I put it down to regularly tracking all of them.
toast boy said:
Selling the car is a bit extreme, and the comment about people binning S2000s is, I think, largely exaggerated. It is true that a reasonably powerful RWD car will be tail happy in less than ideal conditions and your driving style needs to adapt to it. I got a bit of a fright in my TVR when I first got it then realised it was just my driving style that was at fault, it's very different from FWD, even a performance FWD is pretty easy to handle in difficult conditions.
A lightweight powerful front engine rear driver is far more of a handful in the winter than a mid engined rear drive, the limits are a lot lower so you find yourself accidentally passing them if not concentrating 100%. The S2000 does have a very poor record with insurance companies.hornetrider said:
Easy on the right foot old boy, it's not rocket science
+1.It's not difficult to just use less throttle and keep it off boost. If it was something like a 500bhp turbo'd car I can understand that even feathering the throttle might be difficult in slippery conditions, but in the wet, with 230bhp you should have no problem.
Get yourself some professional tuition. Or just turn the boost down until you learn how to drive it confidently.
The fact that it "snap oversteered the other way" suggests that your "correction" was in fact, not, er, correct !!
Personally, i'd just get myself and my car onto one of the many limit handling courses availible. The Racelogic systems are really just a basic traction control, they cannot prevent momentum driven or dynamic loss of control, they just pull the torque back a bit if the rear wheels start to overspeed (and you need to keep your foot in during such a slide to allow the system to work, just backing right off will still result in a tank slapper (as they can't ADD torque))
All in all, spend the money on some proper training, it's better, and a LOT of fun too
Personally, i'd just get myself and my car onto one of the many limit handling courses availible. The Racelogic systems are really just a basic traction control, they cannot prevent momentum driven or dynamic loss of control, they just pull the torque back a bit if the rear wheels start to overspeed (and you need to keep your foot in during such a slide to allow the system to work, just backing right off will still result in a tank slapper (as they can't ADD torque))
All in all, spend the money on some proper training, it's better, and a LOT of fun too
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 21st November 13:51
topless_mx5 said:
hornetrider said:
Easy on the right foot old boy, it's not rocket science
+1.It's not difficult to just use less throttle and keep it off boost. If it was something like a 500bhp turbo'd car I can understand that even feathering the throttle might be difficult in slippery conditions, but in the wet, with 230bhp you should have no problem.
Get yourself some professional tuition. Or just turn the boost down until you learn how to drive it confidently.
You need to have a lighter right foot and be more gentle when applying power, especially when exiting slippery junctions. When does the turbo on the MR2 kick in? Keep your revs below this and you should be fine
Driving to work in an Elise 111S with AD07 tyres, in the snow we had at the beginning of the year, was interesting!
Edited by Ikemi on Sunday 21st November 14:02
Whats a Tank Slapper? (Weird images of big ugly women come to mind lol)
Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
stargazer30 said:
Whats a Tank Slapper? (Weird images of big ugly women come to mind lol)
Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
I think you definitely need to do some kind of driver training, Plenty of owners of mid engined RWD cars with alot more power than yours on here and they seem to cope with wet roads, which would suggest to me its the driver that is at fault.Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
stargazer30 said:
Whats a Tank Slapper? (Weird images of big ugly women come to mind lol)
Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
Thing is what people are getting at is its your inputs at fault causing it to twitch / spin. Learn how to drive it and you won't have these problems. I've taken my MR2 n/a, MR2 turbo and VX220 on track in the rain and cold and true I can't drive as fast is in the dry but I'm still going fast.Well I've added a switch to drop the power down to 200bhp by turning off the boost controller so the turbo only boosts to what the standard waste gate allows. This makes the car drive like its a big NA rather than a turbo, theres very little lag and boost effect. Its a small turbo to start with and it kicks in at low rpm.
Problem is more confidence at the mo, its cold raining every day so I drive it slower than a 1L micra, don't feel safe at all above 30mph. I was only doing about 25mph went it turned into a spinning top on me! I'm sure driver training would help but I can't get away from the fact that when these cars do go its almost impossible to do anything about it, that added to the fact they spin rather than understeer means unless your very very lucky your not getting out of it without a damaged car and or an injury or worse.
My VX220 I use as my 40mile a day commuting car along some nice B roads all rain and cold does is ensure I'm not breaking the nsl that much
Smooth on your inputs, dont jerk the car around bends, take roundabouts slowly, and make sure your approach speed is what you want it to be all the way round the roundabout rather than braking on the roundabout. If you enter a corner with the car unbalanced chances are you might spin it, make sure if you are unbalanced to not power in the corner.
Ultimately it's about respecting the car. If you need to use the car every day I suggest maybe getting a snotter FWD as a runabout in the ice and snow.
Ultimately it's about respecting the car. If you need to use the car every day I suggest maybe getting a snotter FWD as a runabout in the ice and snow.
volvoforlife said:
Still I understand your worry and I am considering selling my BMW which is not going to make it in the snow to get an AWD Volvo instead.
What is this utter arsegravy about RWD being useless in the snow?I'm by no means an amazing driver but despite tyres made of wood and a foot made of lead I managed not to stuff my MX5 all last winter...
As for the OP: training time. No question. You need to learn that the throttle is not a switch.
Throttle and correction have to be used in conjunction in a RWD vehicle, mid or front engined, correction and throttle have to be used in a smooth progressive fashion, with over correction being recognised early and opp lock applied before the point of no return, practice makes perfect and listen to your arse more, it can speak volumes.
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