20 MPH in urban areas

[FraserLFA]

On the news this morning, they were discussing lowering speed limits to 20 MPH in urban areas.

They went on to talk to a girl who's mum was killed by a speeding driver in a 30 MPH zone.

I know the speed lowering is old news, but surely lowering the limits wouldn't have saved her mum if the driver was speeding?

Would a lower limit really stop speeding, or increase it?

[kambites]

I can see the point of lowering it (and enforcing it) on no-through-road residential streets. Plenty of people do try to do 30mph down roads where it's really not safe to do so. I suspect that a blanket lowering of urban 30 limits to 20s, would ultimately have little or no effect on speed whatsoever, so I think it would increase speeding but not increase speed.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 November 08:58

[Cost Captain]

People drive at a speed they want to, regardless of the speed limit, often because they don't know what it is.

Its the same with drink driving. People who are drink driving are over the limit, so what will lowering the limit achieve.

It would be interesting to see a statistic regarding urban crashes at 20-30mph (i.e. those that are keeping to the current limit but would be speeding under the new rules).

Surely most modern cars can stop on a penny from 30mph providing the driver is on the ball? and if the driver isn't on the ball, how much less damage will the driver do at 20 than they would at 30? (i do understand a car has more than double the kinetic energy at 30 than it does at 20 but i'm interested....)

[chopperR]

kambites said:

I can see the point of lowering it (and enforcing it) on no-through-road residential streets. Plenty of people do try to do 30mph down roads where it's really not safe to do so. I suspect that a blanket lowering of urban 30 limits to 20s, would ultimately have little or no effect on speed whatsoever, so I think it would increase revenue generated by speed enforcement but not increase speed.

EFA

[AJI]

kambites said:

Plenty of people do try to do 30mph down roads where it's really not safe to do so.

30mph down just about any road is surely 'safe' enough in any modern vehicle.
Its all the muppets that treat roads as an addition to their garden and have total lack of realisation that vehicles travel on it. This is where the problem lies.
The issue of 30mph travelling speed of vehicles is not the problem IMO.

[davepoth]

If you are an idiot and can't tell when it's unsafe to drive at 30mph+ then it might help. Depends on how many people are idiots really.

[Dog Star]

One of my major bugbears is this. How about making cheap, stty ditchfinders illegal - meaning that even at 35mph in damp conditions a car with worn Michelins will probably pull up in have the distance that it would at 20mph on brand new LingLong LoveYouLongTimes

[durbster]

This was Radio 1 "news", right? Possibly the least credible source of news across any British media. One of their top stories yesterday was about gay bullying in America.

Something I've learned about Radio 1 news is that if the story starts with the words, "There have been calls to...", you can instantly dismiss it as unsubstantiated, irrelevant bks.

[kambites]

AJI said:

30mph down just about any road is surely 'safe' enough in any modern vehicle.

No it's not! There are plenty of urban roads around here where cars parked down both sides restrict visibility enough that you'd be mad to do more than about 15mph.

[kambites]

davepoth said:

If you are an idiot and can't tell when it's unsafe to drive at 30mph+ then it might help. Depends on how many people are idiots really.

Lots, in my experience.

[rich_vw]

AJI said:

kambites said:

Plenty of people do try to do 30mph down roads where it's really not safe to do so.

30mph down just about any road is surely 'safe' enough in any modern vehicle.
Its all the muppets that treat roads as an addition to their garden and have total lack of realisation that vehicles travel on it. This is where the problem lies.
The issue of 30mph travelling speed of vehicles is not the problem IMO.

I agree...how's about educating the kids and parents who use the pavements and roads like playgrounds.

[james_tigerwoods]

Radio 1 news is the biggest pile of steaming bullst I've ever had the misfortune to listen to....

I wonder if the accident at 30, while tragic, was down to the pedestrian's fault more than the drivers? Perhaps I'm being too cynical.

Why is there no education being advertised for pedestrians - I agree that 20 has it's place (only just) but surely instead of hounding motorists like this, there should be a 2 prong approach here?

[kambites]

rich_vw said:

I agree...how's about educating the kids and parents who use the pavements and roads like playgrounds.

If you want to do that, the first thing you've got to do is stop drivers parking on, or partially on, pavements.

[reggie82]

It was a lady from BRAKE that said this. Unfortunately they are morons and think the only factor that determines how safe you drive, is how slow you drive.

[FraserLFA]

durbster said:

This was Radio 1 "news", right? Possibly the least credible source of news across any British media. One of their top stories yesterday was about gay bullying in America.

Something I've learned about Radio 1 news is that if the story starts with the words, "There have been calls to...", you can instantly dismiss it as unsubstantiated, irrelevant bks.

Totally agree. Like i said, the news of lowering limits has been going round for years, there's always some group who wants it done.

It just got me thinking about what difference, if any, it would have made to the situation they highlighted

[Gun]

Brake have been banging in about this for years and no one takes any notice of them so they're having to resort to a "won't someone think of the children" approach. Just ignore them like people always do, they really should have their charitable status removed.

[Bluebarge]

rich_vw said:

AJI said:

kambites said:

Plenty of people do try to do 30mph down roads where it's really not safe to do so.

30mph down just about any road is surely 'safe' enough in any modern vehicle.
Its all the muppets that treat roads as an addition to their garden and have total lack of realisation that vehicles travel on it. This is where the problem lies.
The issue of 30mph travelling speed of vehicles is not the problem IMO.

I agree...how's about educating the kids and parents who use the pavements and roads like playgrounds.

I can't think of anywhere this happens except maybe a housing estate, where you should be exercising extra care - try looking at sections 205 and 206 of the Highway Code.

The 30mph limit is a maximum, and there will be plenty of places in a 30mph zone where that is too fast - sensible drivers will know this and drive accordingly, but the ones who blast around everywhere at 30-35mph+ regardless will be the ones who get the limit lowered to 20mph, to the detriment of everyone.

[ninja-lewis]

durbster said:

This was Radio 1 "news", right? Possibly the least credible source of news across any British media. One of their top stories yesterday was about gay bullying in America.

Something I've learned about Radio 1 news is that if the story starts with the words, "There have been calls to...", you can instantly dismiss it as unsubstantiated, irrelevant bks.

Unfortunately Portsmouth have already implemented blanket 20mph zones and Edinburgh is set to follow suit with a large-scale trial. Pretty much all side streets and some of what locals would consider main roads will become 20mph, albeit without traffic calming measures and the Police warning they have neither the means nor the intentions to enforce it. The justification they use is that there has been 40 accidents in the trial area in the past 3 years - but no breakdown of what caused these accidents (most are believed to be parking bumps!)

As Edinburgh Council are likely to ignore the outcomes of the trial and keep the 20mph limits, I fear it will soon catch on elsewhere.

[mat205125]

It's wrong for either side of any arguement to conclude that their opinion is wrong in EVERY case, however some balanced reporting and some balanced opinion is essential for this kind of decision making.

Whilst there are drivers out there that can (and should) watch their speed better, and be more alert, there is a hell of a lot of scope for improving childrens eduction of road safety, and being more "street wise"

This kind of ad was everywhere when I was at primary school, and between every kids TV show there were road safety ads as well.

[Morningside]

I can see the point of having them past Schools but apart from that it is stupid. Plus as mentioned before 30 is a MAXIMUM speed. Sounds like the usual 'we know best' approach.