Ultima on Order

[02PRUV]

Hi from Australia,

Just ordered an Ultima GTR and finding trouble sleeping every night in anticipation of this thing arriving. Been on the net every night looking up bits and peices and found this forum and thought I would join up.

I spoke to both Richard and Ted before I sent the deposit off to them and they sound like good blokes and willing to have a friendly chat with someone from the other side of the world and expressed how much they are willing to help out through the build.

I have ordered my engine from the US and hopefully it will have enough power to get the Ultima moving. I ended up getting a LSX style motor using a World Warhawk alloy block with a 4" bore and 4.125 stroke to equal 454ci, World Warhawk heads with a Callies crank, Callies rods and wiseco pistons. The engine builder is saying around 700-720bhp at the comp I asked for. I went for 10.5:1 so I can put a procharger on the side of it if needed at a later date.

Just out of interest will a 700bhp engine get these cars doing the times that the factory got for all the speed records? I'm hoping that will be enough and banking on having a bit of an advantage with the bigger torque with the bigger cubes. I want it to be as quick if not quicker than my Yamaha R1. I'm a bit of a speed freak

[Stig]

Nice one

I had an R1 when I had the GTR-S, you won't be disappointed I can tell you

[Gulf LS3]

Oh yeah a proper engine!!!

Drop that comp ratio a bit if you want to fit a ProCharger in the future, why fit it in the future? Which ecu are you planning on running and what transaxle as that big monster is going to eat standard trannies!!!!!!

[02PRUV]

Gulf LS3 said:

Oh yeah a proper engine!!!

Drop that comp ratio a bit if you want to fit a ProCharger in the future, why fit it in the future? Which ecu are you planning on running and what transaxle as that big monster is going to eat standard trannies!!!!!!

I was hoping it would feel great without going F/I but leaving the option open. 10.5:1 comp is dropped a bit. This is usually 11.0:1 and an LS1 is 10.3:1 and an LS2 is 10.7:1 and F/I on these work great on stockers. So 10.5:1 is in the middle and will be fine with forgies and good rods.

We are going to run it like an LS1. Cable throttle so I can use a 102mm throttle and getting them to put an LS1 pickup on it and use an LS1 ECU to tune it.

[andylux]

@02PRUV: Hi, I just wanted to know what they said about delivering date? When will it arrive or leave the factory?

greetings
andy

[ROWDYRENAULT]

O.K. This is my day for pissing everybody, including the factory off. Dude 700 to 720 REAL HORSE POWER with a easy 650 ftlbs of torque which I think you will attain with the combo that you plan on, will be STUPID fast. The chances of needing a hair dryer on top of that combo are slim and none and Slim just left town. Here comes the part were I might ps off the factory. I think the factory is to be commended for the world record speeds, times and numbers that they have put on the board. This has obviously been a tremendous compliment to the focus that Ted and Richard bring to every aspect of the car.
But no way on God's green earth do the American Speed motors that the factory use make rated horse power. I base this on two rides in Ultimas with A/S motors. No I don't think my tail bone is well tunned enough to feel the difference between the claimed 550HP that both cars had and my own, that has 565hp. What I base it on is the idle quality and the carb size. I do'nt buy it. I think that the combo our new Aussie friend will make 700 HP and I think if he gets a clock on it and a decent launch with a good driver he will beat the factories time to 100 MPH. jUST MY OPINION. lEE

[02PRUV]

ROWDYRENAULT said:

O.K. This is my day for pissing everybody, including the factory off. Dude 700 to 720 REAL HORSE POWER with a easy 650 ftlbs of torque which I think you will attain with the combo that you plan on, will be STUPID fast. The chances of needing a hair dryer on top of that combo are slim and none and Slim just left town. Here comes the part were I might ps off the factory. I think the factory is to be commended for the world record speeds, times and numbers that they have put on the board. This has obviously been a tremendous compliment to the focus that Ted and Richard bring to every aspect of the car.
But no way on God's green earth do the American Speed motors that the factory use make rated horse power. I base this on two rides in Ultimas with A/S motors. No I don't think my tail bone is well tunned enough to feel the difference between the claimed 550HP that both cars had and my own, that has 565hp. What I base it on is the idle quality and the carb size. I do'nt buy it. I think that the combo our new Aussie friend will make 700 HP and I think if he gets a clock on it and a decent launch with a good driver he will beat the factories time to 100 MPH. jUST MY OPINION. lEE

Thanks for the input. I get what your saying though. A SBC with a small capacity would be cranky as hell and almost undriveable on the street to make this sort of power in my limited experience with V8's (I could be wrong though and multi-throttles would smooth this a bit too). Even at 454ci it's going to have a pretty big cam in it and you will know it's got it. The bigger advantage I was thinking with the bigger cubes was the torque it will make and will make the HP a lot easier than smaller cubes.

I wonder what bore and stroke they A/S engines are at 720hp though? You would expect it would be a big bore and stroke and therefore have no rebuilds in it either. That's why I wanted to go with the smaller bore so I would have about 5 rebuilds left in the block.

Edited by 02PRUV on Wednesday 1st December 07:46

[Steve_D]

IMHO that engine will be too big. That amount of torque is not needed in a light car. Fortunately you will just spin the wheels rather than eat a transmission on each journey.
If you have not built this engine yet then I would suggest short stroke for a high revving engine. You may be able to make close to the same HP but at higher revs/lower torque which will better suit the ratios of a standard G50.

Steve

[02PRUV]

andylux said:

@02PRUV: Hi, I just wanted to know what they said about delivering date? When will it arrive or leave the factory?

greetings
andy

Time quoted is normally 12 weeks plus shipping of 3-4 weeks.

Steve_D said:

IMHO that engine will be too big. That amount of torque is not needed in a light car. Fortunately you will just spin the wheels rather than eat a transmission on each journey.
If you have not built this engine yet then I would suggest short stroke for a high revving engine. You may be able to make close to the same HP but at higher revs/lower torque which will better suit the ratios of a standard G50.

Steve

I will most likely get the G50 built at some stage. I guessing a built one will handle the power?

Edited by 02PRUV on Wednesday 1st December 07:07

[spatz]

02PRUV said:

That's why I wanted to go with the smaller bore so I would have about 5 rebuilds left in the block.

Edited by 02PRUV on Wednesday 1st December 07:46

why not use a stock ls7 with some better intake and exhaust and you will see 580hp and you would not have to worry at all about engine rebuilts......I have this engine with a G50 and the car is very driveable and fast. It does not feel overpowered but sure enough to be scared of.

Edited by spatz on Wednesday 1st December 09:05

[02PRUV]

spatz said:

02PRUV said:

That's why I wanted to go with the smaller bore so I would have about 5 rebuilds left in the block.

Edited by 02PRUV on Wednesday 1st December 07:46

why not use a stock ls7 with some better intake and exhaust and you will see 580hp and you would not have to worry at all about engine rebuilts......I have this engine with a G50 and the car is very driveable and fast. It does not feel overpowered but sure enough to be scared of.

Edited by spatz on Wednesday 1st December 09:05

I just didn't think it would be enough power. I wanted to get that 700bhp+ to keep up with the record breaking setup that Ultima use. I didn't get this engine thinking I will have to rebuild it all the time, infact this engine with the power it will make will go for 10+ years without an issue. I just think long term so I could rebuild it if need be. Unlike a GM LSX engine that has a big bore with a smaller stroke the blocks bored out as far as it can go. So no rebuilds, throw it away and get another block. I didn't want that cause LSX blocks aren't cheap.

[Gulf LS3]

as i said a great engine, stick with it it will be fun...... all this lot see on here is LS7 and G50, LS7 and G50, LS7 and G50 its so nice to see something different, im hoping more people will look outside the box and try other combos. Why are you using the 24 tooth computer? it will not allow you to map you engine as well as the 58 tooth gen 4 computer, big throttle bodies are available for the gen 4?

Steve im sorry but REAL BHP/torque will destroy a standard G50, ive seen 2, both driven by very unsympathetic drivers i grant you but it does show they will not survive those combinations.

Lee you had a bad day dude?? The times set by the factory cars are superb so does it really matter what bhp is under the clip? The factory have set us all off on our power crusades (yes its your fault Richard) as we all want to have the fastest most powerful Ultima

[Gulf LS3]

02PRUV said:

andylux said:

@02PRUV: Hi, I just wanted to know what they said about delivering date? When will it arrive or leave the factory?

greetings
andy

Time quoted is normally 12 weeks plus shipping of 3-4 weeks.

Steve_D said:

IMHO that engine will be too big. That amount of torque is not needed in a light car. Fortunately you will just spin the wheels rather than eat a transmission on each journey.
If you have not built this engine yet then I would suggest short stroke for a high revving engine. You may be able to make close to the same HP but at higher revs/lower torque which will better suit the ratios of a standard G50.

Steve

I will most likely get the G50 built at some stage. I guessing a built one will handle the power?

Edited by 02PRUV on Wednesday 1st December 07:07

there are other trannies that will handle the power have a look around, some at reasonable money.

[02PRUV]

Gulf LS3 said:

as i said a great engine, stick with it it will be fun...... all this lot see on here is LS7 and G50, LS7 and G50, LS7 and G50 its so nice to see something different, im hoping more people will look outside the box and try other combos. Why are you using the 24 tooth computer? it will not allow you to map you engine as well as the 58 tooth gen 4 computer, big throttle bodies are available for the gen 4?

Steve im sorry but REAL BHP/torque will destroy a standard G50, ive seen 2, both driven by very unsympathetic drivers i grant you but it does show they will not survive those combinations.

Lee you had a bad day dude?? The times set by the factory cars are superb so does it really matter what bhp is under the clip? The factory have set us all off on our power crusades (yes its your fault Richard) as we all want to have the fastest most powerful Ultima

Don't want a FBW throttle. And all the later LS2,LS3,LS7 ecu's are FBW throttle. And as far as I'm aware you can't get a big mouth FBW throttle, only cable.

So can you build a G50 to handle to power? And what do you need to do to hold it together.

I don't think anyone should be pi$$ed with what Lee was saying. It's just another view. It's nothing against the factory (they did the times no question) or what people have bought that he is questioning it's a HP rating of some engines. It's nothing against the car it still does what it does with whatever HP the engines that are supplied.

You can do a simple check on a drag racing calculator and if you input an Ultima weight in at 2200lb and 700hp it comes out at doing a terminal speed of 160mph. If you use 2200lb and 530hp you get 145mph terminal speed which is the quoted time the factory did. So going by that you can see why Lee questions it. But hey it just means if you do have a engine putting out more than that it is going to be quicker than the factory times (with a driver exception of course )

But has anyone even gone to the effort of chassis dynoing or running 1/4 mile times just to at least get a terminal speed? Seems like on the outside that most people get an Ultima and enjoy driving it too much to do things like this.

[738 driver]

Allan.....maybe something to consider if you have not already...the Aussy 98 octane is equal to US 92-93 which might be worth mentioning to the engine builder. Many dyno runs employ race gas for a printout and then a quick run up and re-tune on the proposed end-user fuel.
Dont be put off by thinking outside the box, several others here do too. Am aware of a build not dissimlar to yours.
CMS will advise on your tranny mods and are well worth a call before you bolt together and cause any terminal damage with a serious output motor.
I'd maybe have a rethink on the FBW throttle though...many engine builders dont favour them due to complexity issues but they really do give great results all-round. Im pretty certain up to 100mm ones are now available and with mild porting will more than support your N/A power goals.

Good Luck

[02PRUV]

738 driver said:

Allan.....maybe something to consider if you have not already...the Aussy 98 octane is equal to US 92-93 which might be worth mentioning to the engine builder. Many dyno runs employ race gas for a printout and then a quick run up and re-tune on the proposed end-user fuel.
Dont be put off by thinking outside the box, several others here do too. Am aware of a build not dissimlar to yours.
CMS will advise on your tranny mods and are well worth a call before you bolt together and cause any terminal damage with a serious output motor.
I'd maybe have a rethink on the FBW throttle though...many engine builders dont favour them due to complexity issues but they really do give great results all-round. Im pretty certain up to 100mm ones are now available and with mild porting will more than support your N/A power goals.

Good Luck

Thanks for the info. Just out of interest who is CMS?

It's not the fact that the engine builder thinks they are complex it's more the fact that I will need 102mm throttle to make the power he is saying it will make. As far as I'm aware and I've tried finding you can't get aftermarket big FBW throttles. Even porting a factory one you won't get all the lumps out of it. So your never going to get the flow of an aftermarket TB.

Aussie 98 is actually a lot better than all US pump fuel. Been through all of that in the E46 BMW world with the US using the same Supercharger kits in Australia. We can run more boost and up to 12 degrees more timing than any car in the US has fun on the same kit and make way more power than any US car on pump fuel. So it's a bit hard to compare Aussie and US power figures. That and the Dynos in the US that everyone uses over there is a Dynojet while here he mostly use Dyno Dynamics. Dyno Dynamics in Aus. consistantly read 15% lower than a Dynojet. So it makes comparisions between countries a bit difficult.

[738 driver]

CMS...California Motorsports... Porsche transaxle specialists.

I have no idea on either fuel 'quality'....... merely last week though was in a pro builder-forum debate on the relative octane ratings around the globe. Two very senior builders from the US and Aus both confirmed that in Aus a much simpler octane rating method is employed which does not correspond with the US scale. As you mentioned potentially high-ish compression (for a Pro-charger type engine) and its being built in the US, the point might have been of some use.

Good luck.

[ROWDYRENAULT]

Allen I assume you haven't started down the road yet so I am going to agree with something said earlier. I think you will be happier with an RHS block with a short stroke big bore 360-380 cu inch motor. take some of the low end out of the motor and put it on top. Use the calles crank, Carillo rods, somebodys pistons and West Coast all pro cylinder heads. Run it with Motec (GOT TO BE A LOYAL aUSSIE)and top it off with a Kinsler I.R. manifold. Red line will be about 7600 rpm if you use the good valve stuff peak Torque will be up around 4800-5000. you will make 650 hp at least. the motor will rev like a sewing machine and be a ball to drive. I have a 565 hp 383 cu in LS1 with all but the heads above. yes its a long ways from 565 to 650 but my motor is running stock not even ls6 2002 LS1 heads ported with big valves. The heads have come a very long ways since 2002. If I have a complaint with the motor its the torque making the car a little unpredictable in the midrange when it starts getting in its torque peak. Outside of that when it hits its redline at 7200 it feels like theres a monster in the back seat. Lee

[ezakimak]

ROWDYRENAULT said:

(GOT TO BE A LOYAL aUSSIE).

Lee

HEAR IS THE AUSSIE GEAR BOX TO GO WITH THAT
http://www.albinsgear.com.au/products.php

[02PRUV]

Here is a good video of what a good built LS motor can do. Good video to watch since so many people have been discussing LS motors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VPdMPdu0c

This is basically the same as the engine I'm getting built except I'm using efi and 10.5:1 comp.