Boiler problem - Condensate pipe freezing

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Morning folks - a question for plumbers please

I had a Worcester Greentsar 28i fitted a few months ago by somebody recommended by a friend. It replaced a Worcester Heatslave which had been going for 20-odd years but seemed to be on its last legs.

The new boiler stopped working on Wednesday, I have British Gas Homecare - the engineer came out yesterday, diagnosed a frozen condensate pipe and unfroze it by pouring 3 kettles of boiling watter over the pipe. He advised that the problem would keep recurring as the diameter of the condensate pipe was too narrow and the installer should have fitted a wider diameter pipe.

Have spoken to the installer this morning about the problem and he is happy to fix a wider pipe but will charge for this work. My view is that he should have known the pipe may freeze and should hve fitted a wider pipe to start with (the BG engineer said this was a very common problem). My question is

(i) Should he be fixing it free of charge as its an installation issue ?

(ii) How much should I pay to have a new (wider diamemter) pipe fitted ? Its approx 1m from the boiler to the outside wall and then a straight drop down into the guttering.

TIA

[rovermorris999]

I've not long had a Worcester Camray external boiler fitted by a Worcester Bosch-approved installer. The condensate pipe exits from the boiler via a 15mm pipe which immediately goes into a plastic waste pipe (either 32 or 40mm, can't recall which and it's too damn cold to go and look!). Both are lagged. The pipe also has a good fall into a gully. It sounds like your condensate pipe should at least have been lagged. I was chatting to the guy fitting it and he said the larger pipe was because they had had problems with the 15mm pipes freezing and they now specified that they drained into the larger diameter pipe.

[Countdown]

hanks - that's more or less what the BG engineer said. However the installer is saying the 20mm pipe is as recommended by Worcester Bosch.

Might just pay him to fit a wider pipe in order to get it fixed asap but not happy with him tbh.

[Deva Link]

Countdown said:

...into the guttering.

See this thread http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... and also note the comment about discharging into guttering.

What do the boiler installation instructions say about the size and lagging of the condensate pipe? Worst case, the installer should have followed them.

[Countdown]

Thanks for the link DL

Should have clarified - it runs into the drain (at ground level) , not the guttering (plastic pipework which runs along the side of the house into the downpipe).

[herewego]

Is the outside pipe insulated? If not perhaps you can just pop some insulation over it.

[Deva Link]

Countdown said:

hanks - that's more or less what the BG engineer said. However the installer is saying the 20mm pipe is as recommended by Worcester Bosch.

If you haven't got the installation instructions then look them up on Trade part of the Worcester-Bosch website.

It will say something about insulating external pipe or using larger diameter.

[Ricky_M]

Installation Instructions for Worcesters tell you to take risk of freezing into consideration when running condensate discharge pipework.

Its been a known problem for a few years now, no-one should be running Overflow Pipe externally anymore.

When he ups the pipe size, make sure there is plenty of fall, I've been to a few breakdowns lately with 1 1/4" pipe freezing up.

[JBondig]

Hi, only way to solve problem is to Saniflow the condensate pipe internally. The problem will keep happening. We had this problem last year wigth hundreds of homes (I work for a gas company) so we lagged and installed bigger outlet pipes. Yet this year we are have started getting calls about same ones and are finding even the lagged pipes are blocked. Worcester are denying any fault! Yet its nearly always a worcester boiler that I get called to! Its a problem with the way the worcester boiler releases the condensate, other boilers drip it slowly these boilers dump a larger amount at intervals.

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Thanks for the responses folks.

With regards to running the pipe externally, it suited him and me to be honest. It avoided the need to dismantle or drill through lots of kitchen units. Once it goes outside there is a steep vertical drop before a 45-degree bend.

I'm fairly confident that replacing it with a 32mm pipe should fix the problem

[GTRmad]

Countdown said:

Thanks for the responses folks.

With regards to running the pipe externally, it suited him and me to be honest. It avoided the need to dismantle or drill through lots of kitchen units. Once it goes outside there is a steep vertical drop before a 45-degree bend.

I'm fairly confident that replacing it with a 32mm pipe should fix the problem

Be sure to use 32mm pipe from inside the property!!As it will still freeze if you go through the cavity
with 22mm then into 32mm

[eliot]

JBondig said:

Its a problem with the way the worcester boiler releases the condensate, other boilers drip it slowly these boilers dump a larger amount at intervals.

I would of thought the opposite would be true actually.
I have a 15mm drain pipe which drops vertically - not had any problems so far, but I fitted insulation to it last weekend just in case due to all the threads about these things.

Edited by eliot on Saturday 11th December 09:45

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GTRmad said:

Countdown said:

Thanks for the responses folks.

With regards to running the pipe externally, it suited him and me to be honest. It avoided the need to dismantle or drill through lots of kitchen units. Once it goes outside there is a steep vertical drop before a 45-degree bend.

I'm fairly confident that replacing it with a 32mm pipe should fix the problem

Be sure to use 32mm pipe from inside the property!!As it will still freeze if you go through the cavity
with 22mm then into 32mm

GTRMad

The 22mm/32mm join will be as soon as it leaves the wall. Is it likely to freeze within such a small space ? The 22mm inside the wall isn't freezing, and neither is the 6ft drp. Its freezing at the bottom where there is a 45-degree bend to the left and then another 45-degree bend back to the vertical .

I'd rather not have to take everything apart if I can avoid it.

[Ferg]

eliot said:

JBondig said:

Its a problem with the way the worcester boiler releases the condensate, other boilers drip it slowly these boilers dump a larger amount at intervals.

I would of thought the opposite would be true actually.
I have a 15mm drain pipe which drops vertically - not had any problems so far, but I fitted insulation to it last weekend just in case due to all the threads about these things.

What? A 15mm condensate pipe? What material?

[eliot]

Ferg said:

eliot said:

JBondig said:

Its a problem with the way the worcester boiler releases the condensate, other boilers drip it slowly these boilers dump a larger amount at intervals.

I would of thought the opposite would be true actually.
I have a 15mm drain pipe which drops vertically - not had any problems so far, but I fitted insulation to it last weekend just in case due to all the threads about these things.

What? A 15mm condensate pipe? What material?

typo - 22mm is it? - the normal overflow pipe size.

[Arthur Jackson]

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Arthur Jackson said:

British Gas offered to fit one of those - £199 fully inclusive

One thing which narked me slightly - I have the Homecare agreement with BG. When he came out to fix the boiler he told me that the Homecare agreement doesnt cover frozen external pipes and that they are entitled to charge me for the visit !!

(a) I never knew frozen pipes weren't covered ?
(b) How tf was I supposed to know its a frozen pipe ?

[eliot]

Countdown said:

I have the Homecare agreement with BG. When he came out to fix the boiler he told me that the Homecare agreement doesnt cover frozen external pipes and that they are entitled to charge me for the visit !!

Ever noticed the disclaimer at the bottom of the screen during their adverts. Says something along the lines of we may not come out very quickly on a weekend or during periods of high demand. Which tells you that when you really need them - the answer will be "we are busy" - in the meantime they banked your cash months ago.

[Festive Ferg]

In my VAST experience of BG Homecare, they promise to get there the same day, but all too often show their face but not actually fix the problem for quite a wile after that....

[thinfourth2]

When we had issues with our water pump freezing i gutted a electric blanket and removed the heating wire and wrapped that round the pump and pipes and that solved the problem.

Can't see why that wouldn't work with a condensate pipe