Snow covered speed limit signs, what to do!!??
Discussion
Last week I was driving along a dual carriageway which is normally signposted as 60mph. There are temporary roadworks on it at the moment, and there are temporary speed limits in force, at 40mph. Last week the temporary signs were covered in snow, and the roadworks could not be seen, also due to the snow. Now I knew about the temporary 40mph limit due to local knowledge, but what about someone from out of town, that has never driven that road in good/clear weather, to see the temporary signage? If they were to recognise the type of road/carriageway and trundle along on their merry way at 60mph, if they were to be stopped by a police car or caught on a camera, would the fact that the temporary speed limit signs were invisible be a good/sufficient defence?? I'm curious. 
Incidentally the roadsurface was perfectly clear and 60mph would have been perfectly safe. It was just the embankments at either side that were knee deep in snow after plowing/gritting, and the snow was frozen to the signs.
Incidentally the roadsurface was perfectly clear and 60mph would have been perfectly safe. It was just the embankments at either side that were knee deep in snow after plowing/gritting, and the snow was frozen to the signs.
DaveH23 said:
If the snow is bad enough for the sign and the road works to be covered then they would probably be done for dangerous driving given the conditions.
Speeding is a specific offence of exceeding a number on a stick. The speed limit does not "give permission" to travel at that speed under any circumstances. DWDCA and dangerous driving are different matters entirely and what, for example, might constitute DWDCA in one set of road conditions may not amount to DWDCA in another set of circumstances.
I think I'm turning into von ...
rs1952 said:
DaveH23 said:
If the snow is bad enough for the sign and the road works to be covered then they would probably be done for dangerous driving given the conditions.
Speeding is a specific offence of exceeding a number on a stick. The speed limit does not "give permission" to travel at that speed under any circumstances. DWDCA and dangerous driving are different matters entirely and what, for example, might constitute DWDCA in one set of road conditions may not amount to DWDCA in another set of circumstances.
I think I'm turning into von ...
BB
My original post clearly states that the road surface conditions were fine for 60mph. They had been well cleared and were free of ice. The snow was stuck to the signage as the snow ploughs hadn't cleared them!
To re-phrase then, if driving on a road that is normally a 60 limit, and all signs including those that indicate a temporary lower limit are obscured, what speed limit should one adopt??
To re-phrase then, if driving on a road that is normally a 60 limit, and all signs including those that indicate a temporary lower limit are obscured, what speed limit should one adopt??
Edited by rash_decision on Tuesday 7th December 14:19
If a sign is obscured, it is not classed as a valid sign. I had a similar situation last winter (supervisor on a roadworks job) and the Police told us if we didn't clear the snow off the signs, then they couldn't prosecute. Same with the temporary obliteration spray/bagging. The TTRO (Traffic order) may enable prosecution, but the signing has to be correct, and that is down to the Highways auth, or the temporary Traffic Management contractor (the one who holds the streetworks ticket).
However, most speed limit signs at roadworks are put in at reduced spacing to the guidance, in order that should one sign be blown over/knocked over/otherwise obscured, the next sign along will be visible and within the spacing requirements. (In my experience, I am not a lawyer etc.)
However, most speed limit signs at roadworks are put in at reduced spacing to the guidance, in order that should one sign be blown over/knocked over/otherwise obscured, the next sign along will be visible and within the spacing requirements. (In my experience, I am not a lawyer etc.)
Opulent said:
As an aside, were there streetlights? Because, with speed terminals/repeaters obscured, the limit is automatically 30 - even on a DC!
Really!! I never knew that!! So it's like a kind of safety ruling then to eliminate the risk of folk going to fast in this situation??Edited by rash_decision on Tuesday 7th December 15:16
Edited by rash_decision on Tuesday 7th December 15:17
rs1952 said:
DaveH23 said:
If the snow is bad enough for the sign and the road works to be covered then they would probably be done for dangerous driving given the conditions.
Speeding is a specific offence of exceeding a number on a stick. The speed limit does not "give permission" to travel at that speed under any circumstances. DWDCA and dangerous driving are different matters entirely and what, for example, might constitute DWDCA in one set of road conditions may not amount to DWDCA in another set of circumstances.
I think I'm turning into von ...
rash_decision said:
Opulent said:
As an aside, were there streetlights? Because, with speed terminals/repeaters obscured, the limit is automatically 30 - even on a DC!
Really!! I never knew that!! So it's like a kind of safety ruling then to eliminate the risk of folk going to fast??There is a stretch of A12 that, for about 12 years, was illuminated yet had no speed limit signs of any sort. The BiB could have banned every single person driving along it for double the speed limit! Luckily, they didn't realise until the derestriction repeaters had been put up...
(Edit to reflect your edit
)Edited by Opulent on Tuesday 7th December 15:20
This particular stretch of road had folk talking in work, as noone was quite sure how to address the situation. Some folk knew it was normally a 60 limit with temporary 40, but there were folk from our office down south visiting and they weren't aware of the 40 limit and had commented on assuming it was still a 60 as they couldn't see the signs!!
As I said in my OP, it purely out of curiosity and lack of knowledge of this situation as it can't arise that often I wouldn't think?
As I said in my OP, it purely out of curiosity and lack of knowledge of this situation as it can't arise that often I wouldn't think?
ashes said:
It is interesting in some areas that there are very few NSL repeaters - leaving M18 and coming into Doncaster for example. Probably deliberate so that people go slower in case. Are there rules for repeaters? If so they are being ignored....
There are indeed rules, very much so, in order for the signs to be enforcable (sp?). I can't remember off the top of my head but it's something like every 5 lamp columns or 500m - I didn't trawl too deeply but this link should tell you: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htmIt specifies size of sign, frequency, etc - looks to be lifted fairly wholesale from the official guidance - it is very dry reading.
But yes, if you're got by a gun/camera, and the signing is wrong, then you can fight it. Just don't forget that a lack of signing means 30, not 70!
It's also why, at temporary works, you ALWAYS have a repeater of the speed limit at the end of the secondary carriageway camera markings. The roundel will always be in camera shot, and gives the driver no excuse of "I did't see it guv". In fact, if we request BiB attendance to be a visible deterrent, they won't attend until they are happy all of our signing is 100% in spec.
[/boring work mode]
ashes said:
It is interesting in some areas that there are very few NSL repeaters - leaving M18 and coming into Doncaster for example. Probably deliberate so that people go slower in case. Are there rules for repeaters? If so they are being ignored....
Can't say I've noticed a lack of repeaters there & I drive it enough lately. I was never in doubt about which bit was NSL, however the change to the 40 limit after the roundabout heading north past Carr Lane Ind Est escaped me for ages. They put the signs up at just the right place that you don't notice them while looking for important things such as traffic.Opulent said:
ashes said:
It is interesting in some areas that there are very few NSL repeaters - leaving M18 and coming into Doncaster for example. Probably deliberate so that people go slower in case. Are there rules for repeaters? If so they are being ignored....
There are indeed rules, very much so, in order for the signs to be enforcable (sp?). I can't remember off the top of my head but it's something like every 5 lamp columns or 500m - I didn't trawl too deeply but this link should tell you: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htmThere is guidance (as per the link) on recommended intervals, but those are not legal requirements.
Repeaters are required on any road other than a motorway where either:
(a) the road is lit (by a compliant system of street lights) and the limit is anything other than 30mph; or
(b) the road is unlit and the limit is anything other than NSL.
Opulent said:
There is a stretch of A12 that, for about 12 years, was illuminated yet had no speed limit signs of any sort. The BiB could have banned every single person driving along it for double the speed limit! Luckily, they didn't realise until the derestriction repeaters had been put up...
The Forth Road Bridge was signed as NSL for something like the first 30 years of its life. There was huge pressure to lower the speed limit, and it was only when they looked to amend the existing legislation, they realised that because it's lit and not a motorway, the effective speed limit was only 30.So they made a new Order to increase the limit to 50, advertised it and implemented it, and then signed it accordingly. Everybody thinks the limit was lowered...
BigBob said:
rs1952 said:
DaveH23 said:
If the snow is bad enough for the sign and the road works to be covered then they would probably be done for dangerous driving given the conditions.
Speeding is a specific offence of exceeding a number on a stick. The speed limit does not "give permission" to travel at that speed under any circumstances. DWDCA and dangerous driving are different matters entirely and what, for example, might constitute DWDCA in one set of road conditions may not amount to DWDCA in another set of circumstances.
I think I'm turning into von ...
BB
That speed limit signs are temporarily and unintentionally obscured does not alter the applicable limit - so a lit DC subject to the NSL does not become 30mph if the signs become snow-covered.
What it does mean is that it is unlikely that a motorist could be prosecuted successfully for exceeding a lower (than NSL) limit ... but could be for exceeding the NSL.
Streaky
What it does mean is that it is unlikely that a motorist could be prosecuted successfully for exceeding a lower (than NSL) limit ... but could be for exceeding the NSL.
Streaky
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