This is why the country is going to the dogs.

[Asterix]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews...

article said:

“Discipline’ was felt to be too out-dated, negative and punitive, and ‘powers’ too controlling and dominating,”

[anonymous-user]

Unfortunately teachers have a very hard job of controlling yobby kids especially as most yobby kids are fully versed in how the law stands with what teachers can and cannot do. I would not be surprised if teaching is a proffession where teachers leave on mental health grounds (ie breakdowns etc..)

When i was in school we had it drilled in that if we misbehave and get sent home we would never find a job in our lives. It worked though...

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 11th December 11:38

[12gauge]

I reckon its not just teachers. IMO so many able bodied people are on incapacity because spineless doctors are afraid of them kicking off at the surgery so just OK them for benefits.

Same with Jobcentre staff.
Same with Police leniency towards travellers.
Same with the state towards Islamic fundamentalists.

Yet, if youre a little old lady unable to pay her council tax, the state, like the cowardly bully it is, will have no qualms in locking you up.

[heebeegeetee]

12gauge said:

I reckon its not just teachers. IMO so many able bodied people are on incapacity because spineless doctors are afraid of them kicking off at the surgery so just OK them for benefits.

Same with Jobcentre staff.
Same with Police leniency towards travellers.
Same with the state towards Islamic fundamentalists.

Yet, if youre a little old lady unable to pay her council tax, the state, like the cowardly bully it is, will have no qualms in locking you up.

Well said. If you're weak or vulnerable, you'll feel the full weight of the law at the same time as being neglected in terms of rights and entitlements.

However, I'm with the teachers on this one. The lack of discipline in society has been allowed to go too far and is now irretrievable as far as teachers are concerned.

Our society has been positively encouraged to renege on all sense of personal responsibility, from the top of society to the bottom, and now the problem is far too big to be corrected by teachers. Until parents are made to take responsibility for their actions, nothing will change.

[andy43]

The law needs changing, simple as.
Get the cane if you misbehave, and you won't misbehave. If that doesn't work, threaten complete humiliation - a dunce cap would work well. With electrodes.
Standing nose to nose with a teacher, someone who is trying to shape decent human beings from a sea of hooded pondlife, and getting away with it, is wrong. Anyone can see that.
Using the law and stating "you can't touch me, you'll get the sack while I'll get compo" is wrong, and needs fixing.

[turbobloke]

andy43 said:

Using the law and stating "you can't touch me, you'll get the sack while I'll get compo" is wrong, and needs fixing.

[tinman0]

Had to visit a school yesterday, and read the teacher's note taped to his desk.

First point:

"Welcome each and every pupil into the class as they arrive"

WTF? So all authority and respect destroyed the moment a kid enters the classroom, as it's the teacher who extends the hand of gratitude for turning up to a lesson. Why should the kid show any respect when he is the one being thanked for coming to class?????

By the teacher welcoming the child, the teacher is trying to earn respect, when the teacher should have respect from his very position as being the teacher. It should be the child trying to earn respect from the teacher, not the other way round!

[TheD]

12gauge said:

I reckon its not just teachers. IMO so many able bodied people are on incapacity because spineless doctors are afraid of them kicking off at the surgery so just OK them for benefits.

Same with Jobcentre staff.
Same with Police leniency towards travellers.
Same with the state towards Islamic fundamentalists.

Yet, if youre a little old lady unable to pay her council tax, the state, like the cowardly bully it is, will have no qualms in locking you up.

[heebeegeetee]

tinman0 said:

Had to visit a school yesterday, and read the teacher's note taped to his desk.

First point:

"Welcome each and every pupil into the class as they arrive"

WTF? So all authority and respect destroyed the moment a kid enters the classroom, as it's the teacher who extends the hand of gratitude for turning up to a lesson. Why should the kid show any respect when he is the one being thanked for coming to class?????

By the teacher welcoming the child, the teacher is trying to earn respect, when the teacher should have respect from his very position as being the teacher. It should be the child trying to earn respect from the teacher, not the other way round!

I think that is complete nonsense. Where was the word 'gratitude' taped to the teachers desk?

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

[Sticks.]

heebeegeetee said:

However, I'm with the teachers on this one. The lack of discipline in society has been allowed to go too far and is now irretrievable as far as teachers are concerned.

Our society has been positively encouraged to renege on all sense of personal responsibility, from the top of society to the bottom, and now the problem is far too big to be corrected by teachers. Until parents are made to take responsibility for their actions, nothing will change.

I'd agree with that, but there's also

Asterix said:

article said:

“Discipline’ was felt to be too out-dated, negative and punitive, and ‘powers’ too controlling and dominating,”

I suspect a proportion of currnt teachers lack the skills or presence to keep order in class the way most of mine did. And those that can probably don't get backed by heads/governors.

[tinman0]

heebeegeetee said:

I think that is complete nonsense. Where was the word 'gratitude' taped to the teachers desk?

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

It's not about making children feel valued. It's about respect.

A teacher should automatically be given respect because of their position, much like a policeman, or a fireman whilst they are on duty. Those people do not have to earn respect, they are afforded respect because of their position.

The same is with a teacher. He/She does not have to earn the respect of a child. It should be (and it was originally) taught to respect your teacher from the start. Much like a child has to respect an adult.

But we have this bullst mechanism where everyone has to earn respect. So teachers command no respect, because "they haven't earned it", Policemen and women are abused on the street because they haven't earned respect from the drunk or the vicious, firemen and paramedics get bricks thrown at their vehicles because they do not command respect for their position, because they apparently haven't earned it.

The whole thing about respect is linked, and it starts with a teacher having to "earn" respect from his pupils before he can teach and command authority.

[dandarez]

I'm old enough now not to give a jot, and to be honest the way this country has gone, I don't.

However, it annoys me no end.

This 'was' a wonderful country to live in, and really, still should be. It's just that a Trojan Horse was let in, it parked up, we took absolutely no notice whatsover... and we became overrun.

Equal opportunities reared it's head, what a joke! We followed the Yanks... first with the junk food, through baseball caps to full litigation if someone slips up on your drive after you've cleared it of snow, to allowing burglers a free run of your property (dare 'you' repel borders, you'll feel the full weight of the law!), to political correctness madness, to being the surveillance icon of the world! Schools were surrounded by 8ft high fences - remind me, who's imprisoned? I could go on and on and on... oh I give up, I have!

Too late.

Edited by dandarez on Saturday 11th December 13:21

[heebeegeetee]

tinman0 said:

heebeegeetee said:

I think that is complete nonsense. Where was the word 'gratitude' taped to the teachers desk?

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

It's not about making children feel valued. It's about respect.

A teacher should automatically be given respect because of their position, much like a policeman, or a fireman whilst they are on duty. Those people do not have to earn respect, they are afforded respect because of their position.

The same is with a teacher. He/She does not have to earn the respect of a child. It should be (and it was originally) taught to respect your teacher from the start. Much like a child has to respect an adult.

But we have this bullst mechanism where everyone has to earn respect. So teachers command no respect, because "they haven't earned it", Policemen and women are abused on the street because they haven't earned respect from the drunk or the vicious, firemen and paramedics get bricks thrown at their vehicles because they do not command respect for their position, because they apparently haven't earned it.

The whole thing about respect is linked, and it starts with a teacher having to "earn" respect from his pupils before he can teach and command authority.

I think you've got this completely wrong. Just as the message taped to the teachers desk had nothing to do with gratitude, nor does it have anything to do with a teacher having to earn respect either. In fact it's possibly got nothing to do with the teacher at all and it's all about the children and making them feel a part of the process, making them feel valued, etc etc.

[Eggman]

heebeegeetee said:

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

I helps them feel that they are entitled to respect rather than having to earn it.

This is the problem - it doesn't work that way. The world is a cruel place, and it's better to learn that sooner rather than later.

I suspect my schooldays might have fallen at a time when some kind of transition was in progress:

At my school there were a number of elderly 'old school' masters who ruled by fear and treated the 'boys' (we weren't 'students'; that title wasn't earned until University) with absolute disdain, capriciously dishing out varied punishments for the slightest moment of inattention in class. To them, we were scum - or so thay would have had us believe. Childhood was regarded by them (and us) as an embarrassing affliction that could be alleviated by the application of facts, but that might hopefully clear up in time. With any luck, a succcesful cure would see us sprout tweed jackets, pipes and Jaguar motor cars - apart from we never would; we were from the generation that aspired to GTis and Armani suits.

We also had the start of a generation of 'modern' younger masters, fresh from University and eager that we should call them by their first names.

Guess which ones the boys respected more, and which I now look bsck upon with affection? I can remember some of the faces and names of the 'weird beard' lot, but can't bring anything to mind that they taught, or even in some cases what subject. On the other hand, of the subjects taught using discipline and fear I can still remember Physics formulae, lots of stuff about cell metabolism, physical geography, French, even some Latin (which I was poor at).

Were they are still alive, those scary masters are the ones whose hands I would shake because they helped shape me into the miserable misanthopic git I am today. If I saw the younger ones I would probably just tease them for having gone bald

[jeff m]

tinman0 said:

heebeegeetee said:

I think that is complete nonsense. Where was the word 'gratitude' taped to the teachers desk?

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

It's not about making children feel valued. It's about respect.

A teacher should automatically be given respect because of their position, much like a policeman, or a fireman whilst they are on duty. Those people do not have to earn respect, they are afforded respect because of their position.

The same is with a teacher. He/She does not have to earn the respect of a child. It should be (and it was originally) taught to respect your teacher from the start. Much like a child has to respect an adult.

But we have this bullst mechanism where everyone has to earn respect. So teachers command no respect, because "they haven't earned it", Policemen and women are abused on the street because they haven't earned respect from the drunk or the vicious, firemen and paramedics get bricks thrown at their vehicles because they do not command respect for their position, because they apparently haven't earned it.

The whole thing about respect is linked, and it starts with a teacher having to "earn" respect from his pupils before he can teach and command authority.

I agree to a certain extent but I think those stated plus Parents start off with a moderate amount of respect, then it is up to them to either maintain it,increase it or lose it.
In many cases it has been lost, the police have become the protectors of the state and revenue generaters, not their fault as individuals, but the speed with which "haves" are prosecuted and the "have nots" like travellers are given a pass really doesn't help.
I remember a couple of useless timid kids at school became teachers, I thought at the time "that's gonna work out well". This is the time they were increasing the number of teachers, so I suppose standards had to lower a tad. If I were a teacher I certainly would want either of those guys teaching the period before me.
Parents, kids don't always start off stupid, a lot of them have been trained by their parents down to their level. They see a loser living on handouts and decide this is the level to which they will aspire. To reach this level it is not neccessary to pass any exams, so school just becomes an inconvenient period prior to claiming whatever they can.
I have no solution, well not a legal one.
I see it as failed attempt to build a voting base that went very very wrong.

[tinman0]

heebeegeetee said:

I think you've got this completely wrong. Just as the message taped to the teachers desk had nothing to do with gratitude, nor does it have anything to do with a teacher having to earn respect either. In fact it's possibly got nothing to do with the teacher at all and it's all about the children and making them feel a part of the process, making them feel valued, etc etc.

It's not about making children feel like they are part of the process - they are at school - they are already are part of the process! You cannot be part of the process any more than going to school and having a teacher standing in front of you.

[jeff m]

Eggman said:

heebeegeetee said:

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

I helps them feel that they are entitled to respect rather than having to earn it.

This is the problem - it doesn't work that way. The world is a cruel place, and it's better to learn that sooner rather than later.

I suspect my schooldays might have fallen at a time when some kind of transition was in progress:

At my school there were a number of elderly 'old school' masters who ruled by fear and treated the 'boys' (we weren't 'students'; that title wasn't earned until University) with absolute disdain, capriciously dishing out varied punishments for the slightest moment of inattention in class. To them, we were scum - or so thay would have had us believe. Childhood was regarded by them (and us) as an embarrassing affliction that could be alleviated by the application of facts, but that might hopefully clear up in time. With any luck, a succcesful cure would see us sprout tweed jackets, pipes and Jaguar motor cars - apart from we never would; we were from the generation that aspired to GTis and Armani suits.

We also had the start of a generation of 'modern' younger masters, fresh from University and eager that we should call them by their first names.

Guess which ones the boys respected more, and which I now look bsck upon with affection? I can remember some of the faces and names of the 'weird beard' lot, but can't bring anything to mind that they taught, or even in some cases what subject. On the other hand, of the subjects taught using discipline and fear I can still remember Physics formulae, lots of stuff about cell metabolism, physical geography, French, even some Latin (which I was poor at).

Were they are still alive, those scary masters are the ones whose hands I would shake because they helped shape me into the miserable misanthopic git I am today. If I saw the younger ones I would probably just tease them for having gone bald

That nails it

[turbobloke]

Eggman said:

heebeegeetee said:

I don't see anything wrong in making children feel valued, it helps make them feel that they're a part of the 'community' as opposed to being outside it.

I helps them feel that they are entitled to respect rather than having to earn it.

This is the problem - it doesn't work that way. The world is a cruel place, and it's better to learn that sooner rather than later.

In the sense that being valued and respected have to be earned yes, giving that stuff away reduces its value and doesn't help the recipient. Possibly quite the opposite. Entitlement - to what? Breathe oxygen and not waste it is about all we get at birth and the rest is earned. There is no fundamental right to a degree, a job, or whatever, in spite of what the last 'government' might consider in their mix of bankrupt ideology, incompetence and delusion.

One of the key developments from childhood to adulthood is a move from viewing the world purely in a selfish personal perspective to an approach which understands and relates to others, their viewpoint, and their value.

Material handouts from family or from the state don't seem to help the recipients much either. Gilmour Junior is a case in point and there are many others back down the scale.

[Eggman]

Another intersting point is that all of this learning took place in a frozen, crumbling Victorian edifice and a collection of damp, rotting, asbestos-ridden huts from the 1950s.

The only computer in the entire place was a single Teletype terminal that was monopolised by the school's fattest nerd (who has probably gone on to be CTO of some huge corporation) and mostly used to produce ASCII art. We had pens and paper on our desks, not toys.

Very little money went into our education; we didn't need expensive buildings or equipment and didn't expect it either - we were worthless, no matter what our parents had or did. Our only hope was to suck up the fear and discipline, cram facts into our heads and get off to University. The only alternative we were presented with was a worthless life of misery and failure. We believed all this.

The con worked a treat.

[TheCoolerKing]

andy43 said:

Get the cane if you misbehave, and you won't misbehave. If that doesn't work, threaten complete humiliation - a dunce cap would work well. With electrodes.

Some Daily Mail readers would pay good money for all of the above.

Edited by TheCoolerKing on Saturday 11th December 14:55