Where have all the 993's gone?
Discussion
Having had the usual lunchtime quick glance at the Porsche Specialists (911virgin, Paragon etc etc) I've happened to notice a distinct lack of used 993's on the market presently. Where have they all gone? Is someone secretly stock piling them so he can release them slowly and keep prices nice and high?
I did see/hear a gorgeous 993 C2S speed off on Saturday afternoon and must admit to feeling 'dirty' about it, being a hardened water-cooler at heart ;-)
Steve
(Who'll gladly look after your plain-Jane 993 C2 for you).
I did see/hear a gorgeous 993 C2S speed off on Saturday afternoon and must admit to feeling 'dirty' about it, being a hardened water-cooler at heart ;-)
Steve
(Who'll gladly look after your plain-Jane 993 C2 for you).
I confidently predict the values of nearly all used cars of every make and model will fall in the next 12 months. As for 993 falling towards 964 levels, I doubt it. One is the last and best (according to pretty much all of the contemporary motoring press) incarnation of the air-cooled 911s, and one isn't. The gap is bound to get smaller in real terms as the absolute prices reduce, however.
kamal996 said:
Surely the prices for nice ones can only rise/stay steady if they are become more and more rare
Yes, but the demand will fall as they become older. The cars will fall into the "classic" bracket where buyers are not so main stream. The sheer number of used 996`s currently available, gives purchasers much more choice and VFM.
Buying a 6-10 year old 993 will gradually become more of a specialist choice. The really good ones will hold their value IMHO. Shabby examples will inevitably blend into the mid and upper 964 prices.
david hype said:
Surely the prices for nice ones can only rise/stay steady if they are become more and more rare
Yes, but the demand will fall as they become older. The cars will fall into the "classic" bracket where buyers are not so main stream. The sheer number of used 996`s currently available, gives purchasers much more choice and VFM.
Buying a 6-10 year old 993 will gradually become more of a specialist choice. The really good ones will hold their value IMHO. Shabby examples will inevitably blend into the mid and upper 964 prices.
Dave
1)I assume you have heard of the concept of supply and demand.
2)classic cars usually hold their value better than mainstream cars (so long as owners havent done something silly like spend 50k restoring a car thats only woth 30k)
3) Once the 997 is out the 996 will drop like a stone. The only reason it is holding its money is that it is a current model.
The 993 has already reached classic status and its uniquness and reputation will always ensure a market for a good quality car. The 996 will be the 924/944 of the 911 range (together with those horrible ones from around 1976).
When the 996 and 993s reach similar values (and they will once the 997 is out) then there will be interesting choices to be made.
The reality is that boards such as this are what are driving down the prices of 996-they are actually a great car but pub talk by people who dont actually own one has quite an effect
). More than 2 years ago some '97 993s were worth the same or more than '99 996s. The same is still true if you peruse the ads now and then.
I see the watercooled market for 911s staying largely separate from the aircooled market, with more value overlaps between air and water cooled as the 997 makes the 996 look old and less desirable (perhaps less distinct as "just the old model").
I think the aircooled cars will hold their own as being unique - there are many people who will not move to the watercooled cars; people's enthusiasm will keep the aircooled cars popular. (No I'm not trying to talk the market up, I don't give a damn as to value as I have no intention of ever selling mine!)
You may be seeing less 993s because people are hanging on to them. I certainly don't see too many advertised, however one dealer in 911 & Porsche World has 3(!) C2S for £42,995 each.
I see the watercooled market for 911s staying largely separate from the aircooled market, with more value overlaps between air and water cooled as the 997 makes the 996 look old and less desirable (perhaps less distinct as "just the old model").
I think the aircooled cars will hold their own as being unique - there are many people who will not move to the watercooled cars; people's enthusiasm will keep the aircooled cars popular. (No I'm not trying to talk the market up, I don't give a damn as to value as I have no intention of ever selling mine!)
You may be seeing less 993s because people are hanging on to them. I certainly don't see too many advertised, however one dealer in 911 & Porsche World has 3(!) C2S for £42,995 each.
The reality is that boards such as this are what are driving down the prices of 996-they are actually a great car but pub talk by people who dont actually own one has quite an effect
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I disagree with your statement Kamal.
In that, its boards like these that collectively pool knowledge and table actual expereinces of living with the different models. I have read most of the PH threads about 911 models and the 996 model has a greater proportion of supporters than critics by a large margin.
IMHO if anything, the 996 is one of the most highly praised models, especially the high range exotics. Critism about early model build quality and Porsches obsession with being the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, have gone some way to giving it a reputation for being a more mass-produced car though.
Its a fact that there will be no more 993s made and that helps underpin their value, but the cars are hardly faultless. The 996 took something that was good and made it better, but in doing so, it changed the character forever.
But I doubt that our jovial banter and the freindly gibes between the owners of various models, hardly has any effect on residual values at all.
Pub talk it maybe, but damaging?...I doubt it!
I take it that you think when the 997 comes along you dont think that the 996 will achieve "classic" status then?
It makes no difference to my business if 993s are expensive or not.if they are expensive I buy expensive and sell expensive, if they are cheap, I buy cheap and sell accordingly.....my comment is .
they look expensive when compared to a 964 or a 996.....
Im sure they will drop soon, and in fact read in a specialist Porsche magazine recently that demand was starting to slip a little........so if you have got your nuts in one and were thinking of selling maybe sooner rather than later would be good for the bank balance!
POORCARDEALER said:
It makes no difference to my business if 993s are expensive or not.if they are expensive I buy expensive and sell expensive, if they are cheap, I buy cheap and sell accordingly.....my comment is .
they look expensive when compared to a 964 or a 996.....
Im sure they will drop soon, and in fact read in a specialist Porsche magazine recently that demand was starting to slip a little........so if you have got your nuts in one and were thinking of selling maybe sooner rather than later would be good for the bank balance!
Of course, you will always maintain your margins, but that is only one side of the coin. If i were a poor car dealer, i would be interested in creating a fluid market, especially if it could be augmented by new blood for old money models. Though no expert, i would imagine that there are not too many 964's left around that are genuinely 1st class saleable (from a forecourt). There is however an arguably large(er?) market in the price range that the hitherto 964 occupies. I have had it from the horses mouth at Porsche Reading, "there are not enough 993's on the market and they will always buy good un's as they can sell as manhy has they can buy". (and that's at OPC prices). So i don't buy this cobblers about 993's being par with 964's moneywise. It's a better car all round, everywhere it matters. Which is why I won't be selling my 'last of 'em'...
james_j said:
More than 2 years ago some '97 993s were worth the same or more than '99 996s. The same is still true if you peruse the ads now and then.
This is rubbish a 97 993 Carrera is worth no more than 23-25k in the trade, 27k privately. A rough, high mileage 996 is worth at least 28-30, a dealer would sell easily for 32k.
The 993 appeals more to the enthusiast but in my book, its neither raw like a 911CS or 964RS or polished like a 996. Lets not forget the 996 is more powerful, more modern and much lighter than a 993.
The residuals of 996's will not be that badly affected by the new model, as after all the car is still a 911 carerra, its just a new dash, different door handles, lights and the wide bodyshell. A bit like the facelift it had 2 years ago. the 997 is just a stop gap until the next all new model is released in 2-3 years.
If anything the latest C2 has had such rave reviews that unless Porsche get the new 997 exactly right then it will become fairly sought after. Particularly if the price of the new model does go up 5-7k and supply is sold out for 18 months.
Bennno
Talking as a non-owner but who can see himself in one at some point (assuming funds permit to retain the current rides too 
)...
Aesthetics and "soul". The 996 is, IMO, lacking in both. It matters not that it's quicker or lighter.
The 993 is a lovely looking machine and retains the character and soul that all those who hankered after a 911 still want.
If the 997 is better looking (and photos would indicate that this is generally the case in most peoples' opinion) then I can see the basic 996s getting spanked value wise. The performance variants that are allegedly not coming out in the 997 cycle will, again IMO, hold their value better.
The 964 wasn't as good looking as the 993 or the models before it (IMO), though certain variants have grown on me. This will keep 993 variants higher than 964s (talking from the point of view of what I would sink my own cash into).
The 996 is a nice car, but the basic models have turned into something that doesn't appeal to your trad. sportscar person and so they will eventually suffer similar depreciation to fast BMWs and Mercs. The same thing (to a lesser extent owing to volumes of production) happened with the Ferrari 360.
I'll be keeping a good eye on 993TT and RS prices in the next few years though. Rubystone reckons I wouldn't be that impressed (honest he did!), but it's something I'll have to do at some point (even though the noises they make are a bit tame). A petrolhead stable shouldn't be considered complete without one!
)... Aesthetics and "soul". The 996 is, IMO, lacking in both. It matters not that it's quicker or lighter.
The 993 is a lovely looking machine and retains the character and soul that all those who hankered after a 911 still want.
If the 997 is better looking (and photos would indicate that this is generally the case in most peoples' opinion) then I can see the basic 996s getting spanked value wise. The performance variants that are allegedly not coming out in the 997 cycle will, again IMO, hold their value better.
The 964 wasn't as good looking as the 993 or the models before it (IMO), though certain variants have grown on me. This will keep 993 variants higher than 964s (talking from the point of view of what I would sink my own cash into).
The 996 is a nice car, but the basic models have turned into something that doesn't appeal to your trad. sportscar person and so they will eventually suffer similar depreciation to fast BMWs and Mercs. The same thing (to a lesser extent owing to volumes of production) happened with the Ferrari 360.
I'll be keeping a good eye on 993TT and RS prices in the next few years though. Rubystone reckons I wouldn't be that impressed (honest he did!), but it's something I'll have to do at some point (even though the noises they make are a bit tame). A petrolhead stable shouldn't be considered complete without one!
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