M3 as track car - advice pls
Discussion
I recently looked at the prices of E46 M3 and they look very tempting, you can get decent SMG (I prefer F1 style gearboxes to proper manual...I know 
) for under £10k.
I'm planning to do some track days next year and tracking my Ferrari 360 could potentially be very expensive experience. M3 sounds like a very cheap option plus it still can be used daily with better mpg return than my Cayenne.
I never had BMW so would appreciate some advice. Would it be good idea of E46 M3 SMG as a track day car? I was planning to get rid of rear seats, installing some lightweight front seats, maybe getting rid of carpets and some other heavy staff. Adding CSL alloys with decent rubber. Would still leave the stereo and aircon though.
What other mods needs to be done? How are the brakes on standard M3? I'm not planning to go extreme route, still want the car to be road legal and comfortable. No roll cage either.
Or shall I be better of getting CSL straight away? I like the CSL however at least 12-13k price difference - is it really worth it for inexperienced track driver who unlikely to push the car to its limits anyway?
) for under £10k. I'm planning to do some track days next year and tracking my Ferrari 360 could potentially be very expensive experience. M3 sounds like a very cheap option plus it still can be used daily with better mpg return than my Cayenne.
I never had BMW so would appreciate some advice. Would it be good idea of E46 M3 SMG as a track day car? I was planning to get rid of rear seats, installing some lightweight front seats, maybe getting rid of carpets and some other heavy staff. Adding CSL alloys with decent rubber. Would still leave the stereo and aircon though.
What other mods needs to be done? How are the brakes on standard M3? I'm not planning to go extreme route, still want the car to be road legal and comfortable. No roll cage either.
Or shall I be better of getting CSL straight away? I like the CSL however at least 12-13k price difference - is it really worth it for inexperienced track driver who unlikely to push the car to its limits anyway?
Edited by 4leks on Sunday 19th December 12:46
Hi 4leks
I'd put forward the notion that the E46 CSL is a full track orientated car and not really a 'novice' car. In that respect, you'd be better off getting a standard M3 and uprating it as your skills improve. Of course, the 'basic' things like ensuring the brakes are up to scratch as well as the rest of the car mechanically is first and foremost. It's obvious that you have deeper pockets/a fatter wallet than most, and on that basis, I'd even suggest going one step further and perhaps getting an E36 328i for dirt cheap to begin track experience on. If you stack it, it's less of a financial impact on you. The learning curve will be 'longer' but also I'd suspect more rewarding as you build up that experience and knowledge and then move into more higher powered machinery. Perhaps get along to a track day, and ask a seasoned professional to go round with you to assess your skills and then perhaps look for the right car for you and your current skill level?
I'd love to just pop out and buy a CSL for track days, but deep down I know I don't know the quarter of hwo to track and the car would be wasted on me. Speaking to a few guys who have started off, the 328i starting point appeals to me the best, a few have mentioned E36 318iS as well. Your skill level is probably significantly higher than mine of course so perhaps the E46 M3 is perfect. Good thing is, there's alot of knowledge out there so for recommendations on parts and upgrades suitable for the track is plentiful !
Good luck and envious!
Dennis!
I'd put forward the notion that the E46 CSL is a full track orientated car and not really a 'novice' car. In that respect, you'd be better off getting a standard M3 and uprating it as your skills improve. Of course, the 'basic' things like ensuring the brakes are up to scratch as well as the rest of the car mechanically is first and foremost. It's obvious that you have deeper pockets/a fatter wallet than most, and on that basis, I'd even suggest going one step further and perhaps getting an E36 328i for dirt cheap to begin track experience on. If you stack it, it's less of a financial impact on you. The learning curve will be 'longer' but also I'd suspect more rewarding as you build up that experience and knowledge and then move into more higher powered machinery. Perhaps get along to a track day, and ask a seasoned professional to go round with you to assess your skills and then perhaps look for the right car for you and your current skill level?
I'd love to just pop out and buy a CSL for track days, but deep down I know I don't know the quarter of hwo to track and the car would be wasted on me. Speaking to a few guys who have started off, the 328i starting point appeals to me the best, a few have mentioned E36 318iS as well. Your skill level is probably significantly higher than mine of course so perhaps the E46 M3 is perfect. Good thing is, there's alot of knowledge out there so for recommendations on parts and upgrades suitable for the track is plentiful !
Good luck and envious!
Dennis!
[quote=Kong]If you already have a Cayenne and a Ferrari 360 then why not get a proper track car? An Ariel Atom, Caterham or even a Lotus Elise would make more sense.[/quote
Agreed, an M3 is a great all rounder and for the money, you'll be pushed to find something better, but you'll be missing the point of an M3, is a refined road monster, with mild track capabilities. No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!! No matter how sorted you get an M3, it's just not going to be a worth while track car IMO
Agreed, an M3 is a great all rounder and for the money, you'll be pushed to find something better, but you'll be missing the point of an M3, is a refined road monster, with mild track capabilities. No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!! No matter how sorted you get an M3, it's just not going to be a worth while track car IMO
tjw110 said:
No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!!
That couldn't be any further from the truth. My old 328 track car at 1200 kgs kept with every £5K Elise it ever encountered. My current E36 M3 track car is not as extreme as the 328 and weighs in at 1340 kgs. That's near enough the weight of a CSL and with around 40 bhp less. I don't think I ever saw a CSL being ass raped by a £5K Elise.Id also agree with the comment on CSL. Unless you are going to spend some serious time on track next year its a sledge hammer to crack a nut. A standard M3 will be fine.
You need to fairly talented to extract the full performance from a CSL. I was tempted until I had a PAX lap round the ring with a talented chap and I was left thinking it would be wasted on me. A very very capable car which I doubt BMW will ever emulate. A good investment though if its going to be a garage queen. (ish).
You need to fairly talented to extract the full performance from a CSL. I was tempted until I had a PAX lap round the ring with a talented chap and I was left thinking it would be wasted on me. A very very capable car which I doubt BMW will ever emulate. A good investment though if its going to be a garage queen. (ish).
Edited by Dan S on Tuesday 21st December 07:49
swtmerce said:
tjw110 said:
No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!!
That couldn't be any further from the truth. My old 328 track car at 1200 kgs kept with every £5K Elise it ever encountered. My current E36 M3 track car is not as extreme as the 328 and weighs in at 1340 kgs. That's near enough the weight of a CSL and with around 40 bhp less. I don't think I ever saw a CSL being ass raped by a £5K Elise.tjw110 said:
. No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!! No matter how sorted you get an M3, it's just not going to be a worth while track car IMO
Completely disagree with this, with sorted suspension and brakes Ive not seen many cars faster on track than some E36's I've seen.I have a stripped out E36 track car, its not got sorted suspension or brakes and would definatelly have an elise run rings round it, but only because the suspension is and brakes are std and crap...... Ive had elises, Ultimas and currently a heavily modified Noble and I STILL rate the E36 M3 as an increadable track toy hence I have had it for 5 year.
My Vote is to get a cheap E36 M3 maybe thats already track sorted, it'll be cheap (even if you do suspension and brakes which will cost around £4k to do properly), just as quick as the E46 and still run well on the road.
tjw110 said:
swtmerce said:
tjw110 said:
No matter how much you reduce the weight, beef up the brakes, you'll bet your ass raped by every £5k Elise you encounter on a track..!!
That couldn't be any further from the truth. My old 328 track car at 1200 kgs kept with every £5K Elise it ever encountered. My current E36 M3 track car is not as extreme as the 328 and weighs in at 1340 kgs. That's near enough the weight of a CSL and with around 40 bhp less. I don't think I ever saw a CSL being ass raped by a £5K Elise.An interesting comparison happened earlier this year when I took my AP equipped E46 M3 on an open pitlane trackday at Cadwell Park. There were a number of Elises of various vintages, as well as their VX220 cousins. Around the tight and twisty sections over the mountain, and through the trees they were like greased lightning compared to my standard sprung, and full weight M3. Around the second half of the lap, however, my M3 was reaching speeds beyond 120mph, and well beyond what the early K-Series Elises were able to. Throughout the day there were laps of continual concerining around the two, very different, halves of the laps - Many sessions were interesting "battles" with overall very evenly matches overall lap performances.
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To the OP. If you are interested in an SMG E46 in excellent condition, and already fitted with the essential (for track work) AP 6 pot brakes, and 4 pot rears, then I am semi-considering parting company with my (recently Inspection 2, and MOT) car. I'm considering sacrificing road M3 performance for oil burning cost effectiveness, and releasing the capital to make some meaningful progress with my MK2 Escort project.
There's a picture on my profile. There's this link to some photos, and commentary too.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... E46 BMW M3 SMG&mid=65677
I'm also happy to accomodate a chat or a PM too.
M
A standard M3 would be fine, why don't you start off with that and go from there. You could get a CSL, the handling is very similar anyway. If you can handle an M3, you can handle a CSL. Just build up to the limits as you would in any car.
As has already been stated, you'll need to upgrade the brakes if you want to track it. Otherwise the peddle will go all mushy after about 5 laps and you'll get into all sorts of bother.
Personally, I would buy a caterham and keep the other kit that you've got. That is a proper car and so much better than an M3 on track.
As has already been stated, you'll need to upgrade the brakes if you want to track it. Otherwise the peddle will go all mushy after about 5 laps and you'll get into all sorts of bother.
Personally, I would buy a caterham and keep the other kit that you've got. That is a proper car and so much better than an M3 on track.
tjw110 said:
Either you are a very talented driver or the Elise had a very poor driver, or the Elise was running on 3 cylinders, in all the track days I've done I've never seen a sorted road / track E36/E46 keep up with an Elise
Elise Trophy at Cadwell Park Aug 2010In qualifying, positions 4 - 12 did 1:44 to 1:48.
1200kg E36 328i track car
1:47
THEREFORE, my father is bigger than your father
Edited by swtmerce on Tuesday 21st December 11:50
Hi 4leks. A standard M3 will be fine. Just uprate the brakes and away you go. Don't spend any more on it. Spend the rest on a good instructor. You'll soon be leaving much more heavily modded cars for dead. I remember some years ago at the launch of Renualts MK2 ClioV6 being taken round Brands GP circuit by a young F3 hotshoe. Not a car with a brilliant handling reputation or excesses of power but he was DESTROYING Elises, Exiges, Porsches etc. I decided then and there better to be a 'man who can' in an understated car than one of the 'all the gear and no idea brigade' lol. If you can drive well - and suprisingly few on track days can - a standard M3 with sorted brakes will be plenty quick enough.
Thx a lot for great input, guys, really appreciated.
Yeap, originally I was thinking about Catherham/Elise/Atom or similar track weapon. The reason I decided not to is I don't think I would have too many track days due to lack of time. Plus I was thinking about the car I can not only use on the track but occasionally be useful as daily driver. We share Cayenne T as daily with my missus now and 360 is obviously not a daily driver, so it would be useful to have 2nd/3rd car. Elise/Exige don't tick the box due to lack of boot space etc. I'm not bothered by the fact that Elise is quicker than M3 around the track to be honest either My 360 is garaged but I don't have any more space in the garage / off street parking so I would have to keep either 360 or Catherham on the public road - not great.
Also I don't feel that I'm that experienced track driver so would not be able to extract the best of Atom anyway. Would be waste of money for 1 year or 2 until I gain decent experience.
There are only 2 cars which potentially tick all the boxes (being track car and still can be used daily if needed) IMO - 996 or M3. But if we talk money wise I think M3 is much better value for money at the mo than 996.
Based on your experience, guys, it looks like I don't really need CSL, standard M3 with some decent mods should be sufficient...
Yeap, originally I was thinking about Catherham/Elise/Atom or similar track weapon. The reason I decided not to is I don't think I would have too many track days due to lack of time. Plus I was thinking about the car I can not only use on the track but occasionally be useful as daily driver. We share Cayenne T as daily with my missus now and 360 is obviously not a daily driver, so it would be useful to have 2nd/3rd car. Elise/Exige don't tick the box due to lack of boot space etc. I'm not bothered by the fact that Elise is quicker than M3 around the track to be honest either
My 360 is garaged but I don't have any more space in the garage / off street parking so I would have to keep either 360 or Catherham on the public road - not great. Also I don't feel that I'm that experienced track driver so would not be able to extract the best of Atom anyway. Would be waste of money for 1 year or 2 until I gain decent experience.
There are only 2 cars which potentially tick all the boxes (being track car and still can be used daily if needed) IMO - 996 or M3. But if we talk money wise I think M3 is much better value for money at the mo than 996.
Based on your experience, guys, it looks like I don't really need CSL, standard M3 with some decent mods should be sufficient...
Edited by 4leks on Tuesday 21st December 12:29
mat205125 said:
Trackdays are about fun, rather than chasing tenths.
For me, this is where an M3 murders a small mid-engined car like an elise. There are few cars ever made that are as "playful" as any generation of M3 given a bit of space away from speed limits and the eyes of police officers.
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