What's the procedure?
Discussion
I was talking to a mate tonight, who's son's friend was camera'ed at 138 on a bike on the A38 last week. Instead of an NIP in the post, he got a visit the following day from the BiB who arrested him.
Is this standard procedure for Staffs police, only another friend of mine thinks he was photo'ed last week doing about the same and is s**tting bricks waiting for an NIP?
Can any of our thin blue line shed any light, please? (BTW he is very remorseful and is thinking about selling his car and buying something that doesn't encourage him to speed).
Is this standard procedure for Staffs police, only another friend of mine thinks he was photo'ed last week doing about the same and is s**tting bricks waiting for an NIP?
Can any of our thin blue line shed any light, please? (BTW he is very remorseful and is thinking about selling his car and buying something that doesn't encourage him to speed).
Very true. Was your mate planning to leave the country/move house etc.. or was he daft enough to try and give "duff pars" as some of my Metpol colleagues would say? If so, it could have been a S25 PACE arrest.
Other than that, I can't think of a power of arrest. Should simply have been verbally NIP'd, probably following a contemporaneous interview.
Other than that, I can't think of a power of arrest. Should simply have been verbally NIP'd, probably following a contemporaneous interview.
AIUI
1) They probably thought that he just wouldn't fill in the NIP; max penalty £1,000 + ban.
2) Because at that speed, a jail sentence is a possibility; therefore the self-incrimination evidence (the signed form) may be ruled inadmissable as evidence Brown v Stott, Privy council, 5/12/00; that said, the same may apply to a verbal answer for the same reason.
3) Because of Brown v Stott, he may even have a defence to S172 if he doesn't supply.
4) If he is charged with dangerous (an each way offence), and he choses a jury trial, the signed form may not be admissable as evidence. (S12) However, following the Yorke / Maudesley and Idris Francis appeals, they may be able to use it under PACE as a confession as it was decided that no caution is required.
The photograph itself may of course identify him, although, since it was on a bike, that seems unlikely.
Note that I am unaware of anyone who has run these defences, but perhaps Staffs. doesn't want to take the risk.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 19th April 23:17
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 19th April 23:23
1) They probably thought that he just wouldn't fill in the NIP; max penalty £1,000 + ban.
2) Because at that speed, a jail sentence is a possibility; therefore the self-incrimination evidence (the signed form) may be ruled inadmissable as evidence Brown v Stott, Privy council, 5/12/00; that said, the same may apply to a verbal answer for the same reason.
3) Because of Brown v Stott, he may even have a defence to S172 if he doesn't supply.
4) If he is charged with dangerous (an each way offence), and he choses a jury trial, the signed form may not be admissable as evidence. (S12) However, following the Yorke / Maudesley and Idris Francis appeals, they may be able to use it under PACE as a confession as it was decided that no caution is required.
The photograph itself may of course identify him, although, since it was on a bike, that seems unlikely.
Note that I am unaware of anyone who has run these defences, but perhaps Staffs. doesn't want to take the risk.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 19th April 23:17
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 19th April 23:23
I don't think he was even stopped at the time. He ran through the camera (safety van, I believe) and got the knock the following day. I presume that the officer in the van got his reg as he went past (front facing camera?) Other than that I don't know as I haven't spoken to the guy in question myself.
So the concensus is that even if the speed is so quick as to possibly warrant a sentance, and NiP within 14 days is still the norm?
No help for my friend, I suppose, he'll just have to wait it out!
Anyone know what the standard time is (4-5 days?)
So the concensus is that even if the speed is so quick as to possibly warrant a sentance, and NiP within 14 days is still the norm?
No help for my friend, I suppose, he'll just have to wait it out!
Anyone know what the standard time is (4-5 days?)
cant ban you if it causes you to lose your livelyhood, ie job, see here; 20.( Magna Carta) For a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a husbandman the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a royal court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood, dont forget that whatever our Tone tells you the Magna Carta is still the supreme Law here and above statute (made up Laws)!, it says that the Law Cannot take away your liveliehood forever!, end of story!, go for it!
docevi1 said:
the NIP has to be delivered within 14 days I believe, or at least has to be written out within 14 days...
NO.
The NIP has to be sent within 14 days not including the date of the offence. In effect 15 days.
It can be delivered after the 14 day limit as long as proof of posting shows it was within the 15 allocated days.
An NIP can be delivered months later if the Police can show they made reasonable steps to trace the intended defendant within the time allowed ( 15 days from commision date)
gone said:
NO.
The NIP has to be sent within 14 days not including the date of the offence. In effect 15 days.
It can be delivered after the 14 day limit as long as proof of posting shows it was within the 15 allocated days.
No, no and thrice no.
The NIP must be posted with the expectation of being delivered by day 14 'in the normal course of post'.
Interpretation Act 1978. (Section 7 IIRC).
A NIP posted on day 14 does not comply. Nicholson v Tapp.
jeffreyarcher said:
NO.
The NIP has to be sent within 14 days not including the date of the offence. In effect 15 days.
It can be delivered after the 14 day limit as long as proof of posting shows it was within the 15 allocated days.
No, no and thrice no.
The NIP must be posted with the expectation of being delivered by day 14 'in the normal course of post'.
Interpretation Act 1978. (Section 7 IIRC).
A NIP posted on day 14 does not comply. Nicholson v Tapp.
I won't get into an arguement on this. I know the case you are quoting but it is case law and open to interpretation by other judgemets.
What about day 12 or 13?
The law states 14 days. That still stands unless someone else decides to challenge it and the individual circumstances of the sending are examined by a court.
The law in relation to NIP has not changed because of the outcome of this case!
Very similar to your post on abuse of process for a summons issued near to the end of the 6 month statutory limit on proceedings. The abuse of process is for a court to decide if the issue is raised in a challenge by a defendant.
We seem to have missed one point. An NIP does not have to be served in writing. It can be done verbally to the driver at the scene or up to 14 days later. The wording is:
I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for an offence of .......
Driver is then cautioned, and any reply noted.
The original thread mentioned the driver was arrested, and we started with whether there was a power of arrest. Was he actually taken to a Police station, booked into custody?
I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for an offence of .......
Driver is then cautioned, and any reply noted.
The original thread mentioned the driver was arrested, and we started with whether there was a power of arrest. Was he actually taken to a Police station, booked into custody?
gone said:
I won't get into an arguement on this.
Why do people starting arguments start with that phrase?
gone said:
I know the case you are quoting but it is case law and open to interpretation by other judgemets.
True; give me a conflicting one.
gone said:
What about day 12 or 13?
What about them; I never said that they did or didn't comply.
gone said:
The law states 14 days. That still stands unless someone else decides to challenge it and the individual circumstances of the sending are examined by a court.
1) Did you read the Interpretation Act?
2) True, it would be up to the accused to challenge it. Just as it would be up to the accused to challenge a NIP posted on day 15.
gone said:
The law in relation to NIP has not changed because of the outcome of this case!
Nicholson v Tapp pre dates the 1988 act. However, the essentials are the same.
The Act has been 'interpreted', and, anyway there's the Interpretation Act too.
S172, as written, doesn't require a signature. You're not seriously suggesting that the unsigned loophole is still open, are you?
gone said:
Very similar to your post on abuse of process for a summons issued near to the end of the 6 month statutory limit on proceedings. The abuse of process is for a court to decide if the issue is raised in a challenge by a defendant.
I don't know which post you're refering too. Raising a summoms before the end of the six months is not an abuse of process (unless it is sat on) and I have never said that it was.
This is considerably more certain than the 'abuse of process' argument.
jeffreyarcher said:With the greatest of respect, Mr Archer, the question I asked was how long does it usually take to arrive, not how long have they actually got!
How long does it normally take for the NIP to arrive? The incident was last Thursday, and he has had nothing as of today's post.
starmist said:
starmist said:
How long does it normally take for the NIP to arrive? The incident was last Thursday, and he has had nothing as of today's post.
With the greatest of respect, Mr Archer, the question I asked was how long does it usually take to arrive, not how long have they actually got!
I think what JeffreyArcher was trying to say was not more than 14 days, as per 50% of the posts on the SPL forum. But I wouldn't expect it before 7 days.
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