Discussion
Wheeler was spot on about the airbag in open tops... I think thats why BMW and a few other BIG names in the automotive industry spend millions on researching the right angle and response times and seat movement in order to achieve the goal of saving your head smashing against the wheel or the top of the windscreen (unless you're a midget, and chances are, you'll snap anyway)...
TVR dont want to spend the money on research, so Wheelers responses are one-sided... I totally disagree with his statements stating that its in the best interests of our drivers.
Over 3/4's of the year, we have damp or severely wet roads... ABS would help a lot in those times... and also remember, for TVR to bang ABS support into our rockets, they will need to spend a hell of a lot money, to find the right balance and config. So again Wheelers avoiding the issue by making a statement that is one-sided again.
Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini use ABS... hello TVR? are they doing something wrong?
I would be willing to pay extra, if I knew my car was not stuck together using glue and had all the appropriate equipment to not only make my driving enjoyable but more reliable and secure in the event of something very misfortunate occuring. Most people with a little capital would love to drive and own a TVR, but why do they end up in a Porsche or more commonly these days, a F360?
We all love our TVR's... but the reliability and build quality and the REAL need for a better LSD system and a better suspension setup with ABS and airbags for me and the other half... would make me enjoy my driving that much more, and let my lady relax too!
Not trying to be aggressive in my tone here, but many accidents and events could have been avoided if these standard safety bits-n-bobs were in our rockets, not mentioning the deaths caused by inadequate safety options in the car and the cars lack of ability to at least do something to help in a control-loss situation... not saying go the Porsche route, but hey, theres a lot more that other lightweight sportscar manufacturers are doing on their existing models, rather than TVR's philosophy of trying to come out with a new bloody car every year.
Sort our Tuscans and Cerberas out, make them better, more powerful, safer, (the more power will offset nicely against the additional safety features (weight)).... and maybe even stick with one damn baby two seater... I feel sorry for the many out there who jumped in and bought the tamora, only to realise the T350 was coming out within a few months, and then damn it, the nicer T350T, and now the damn Sagaris... Slow down on the new car thing... stick with one, make it better, enhance it, clean up your choice of design failures... and then when you're ready, move on... it will make a lot of us happier....
Phew... I'm off for a drive now!
PS. This was all meant at TVR, and I know the majority agree with this general opinion... Those boys up in Blackpool have to listen to what their customer base really wants... which Wheeler once upon a time did, but now, its all becoming a business....
TVR dont want to spend the money on research, so Wheelers responses are one-sided... I totally disagree with his statements stating that its in the best interests of our drivers.
Over 3/4's of the year, we have damp or severely wet roads... ABS would help a lot in those times... and also remember, for TVR to bang ABS support into our rockets, they will need to spend a hell of a lot money, to find the right balance and config. So again Wheelers avoiding the issue by making a statement that is one-sided again.
Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini use ABS... hello TVR? are they doing something wrong?
I would be willing to pay extra, if I knew my car was not stuck together using glue and had all the appropriate equipment to not only make my driving enjoyable but more reliable and secure in the event of something very misfortunate occuring. Most people with a little capital would love to drive and own a TVR, but why do they end up in a Porsche or more commonly these days, a F360?
We all love our TVR's... but the reliability and build quality and the REAL need for a better LSD system and a better suspension setup with ABS and airbags for me and the other half... would make me enjoy my driving that much more, and let my lady relax too!
Not trying to be aggressive in my tone here, but many accidents and events could have been avoided if these standard safety bits-n-bobs were in our rockets, not mentioning the deaths caused by inadequate safety options in the car and the cars lack of ability to at least do something to help in a control-loss situation... not saying go the Porsche route, but hey, theres a lot more that other lightweight sportscar manufacturers are doing on their existing models, rather than TVR's philosophy of trying to come out with a new bloody car every year.
Sort our Tuscans and Cerberas out, make them better, more powerful, safer, (the more power will offset nicely against the additional safety features (weight)).... and maybe even stick with one damn baby two seater... I feel sorry for the many out there who jumped in and bought the tamora, only to realise the T350 was coming out within a few months, and then damn it, the nicer T350T, and now the damn Sagaris... Slow down on the new car thing... stick with one, make it better, enhance it, clean up your choice of design failures... and then when you're ready, move on... it will make a lot of us happier....
Phew... I'm off for a drive now!
PS. This was all meant at TVR, and I know the majority agree with this general opinion... Those boys up in Blackpool have to listen to what their customer base really wants... which Wheeler once upon a time did, but now, its all becoming a business....
SXS said:
Porsche or more commonly these days, a F360
Which cost two or even three times as much to buy new...
You pay your money, you take your choice. Based on the comments in the Wheeler interview, I wouldn't expect a change no matter how loud anyone shouts!
>> Edited by _dobbo_ on Tuesday 20th April 17:20
Most of the accidents involving TVRs are single vehicle accidents caused by the driver not adapting to conditions or using techniques that are plain stupid and not suitable for high powered rear wheel cars. In these cases, all the gizmos in the world would have failed to make much difference because they don't change the laws of physics. I don't know how many times people advice to take care and get tuition and the car is then smashed up. However I suspect the figure is about the same for Porkers/Fiats sorry Ferraris and Beemers. The reason is that most drivers do not know what they are doing or rely blindly on gismos to get them out of any problems.
As for ABS... the real problem I have with it is the fact that it tends to encourage to reduce their safety margins because I have ABS and that will help me. Wrong and wrong again. Most drivers have never experienced ABS coming in because they never drive to those type of limits and have a large safety margin.
Yes ABS may (or may not) be useful if you get it wrong but equally the key point is that you have got it wrong and are expecting it to magically come to your rescue. DRiver error. Let's concentrate on taking away those driver's errors by improving driving skills and not covering them up with electronics and gismos.
As for ABS... the real problem I have with it is the fact that it tends to encourage to reduce their safety margins because I have ABS and that will help me. Wrong and wrong again. Most drivers have never experienced ABS coming in because they never drive to those type of limits and have a large safety margin.
Yes ABS may (or may not) be useful if you get it wrong but equally the key point is that you have got it wrong and are expecting it to magically come to your rescue. DRiver error. Let's concentrate on taking away those driver's errors by improving driving skills and not covering them up with electronics and gismos.
If TVR were to start fitting ABS, traction control, and any other sort of so called 'driver aids' it would
seriously put me off.
I think that its very refreshing for a company to be building cars that require skills to drive well, which must be learnt. This as opposed to most manufacturers who panda to the lowest chump who needs all the safety guff they can cram in just to keep the thing on the road.
I don't care if it's because of cost factors or because Wheeler really believes that the cars are better without (which they are).
>> Edited by 400sedave on Tuesday 20th April 17:57
seriously put me off.
I think that its very refreshing for a company to be building cars that require skills to drive well, which must be learnt. This as opposed to most manufacturers who panda to the lowest chump who needs all the safety guff they can cram in just to keep the thing on the road.
I don't care if it's because of cost factors or because Wheeler really believes that the cars are better without (which they are).
>> Edited by 400sedave on Tuesday 20th April 17:57
shpub said:
Most of the accidents involving TVRs are single vehicle accidents caused by the driver not adapting to conditions or using techniques that are plain stupid and not suitable for high powered rear wheel cars. In these cases, all the gizmos in the world would have failed to make much difference because they don't change the laws of physics. I don't know how many times people advice to take care and get tuition and the car is then smashed up. However I suspect the figure is about the same for Porkers/Fiats sorry Ferraris and Beemers. The reason is that most drivers do not know what they are doing or rely blindly on gismos to get them out of any problems.
As for ABS... the real problem I have with it is the fact that it tends to encourage to reduce their safety margins because I have ABS and that will help me. Wrong and wrong again. Most drivers have never experienced ABS coming in because they never drive to those type of limits and have a large safety margin.
Yes ABS may (or may not) be useful if you get it wrong but equally the key point is that you have got it wrong and are expecting it to magically come to your rescue. DRiver error. Let's concentrate on taking away those driver's errors by improving driving skills and not covering them up with electronics and gismos.
If the world was made equal and all humanity had the same level of perception and understanding and physical ability... then yes, teach the skills, make everyone understanding how to show respect to the car and road and how to handle situations correctly...
But alas, reality doesnt give us that luxury, and so in order to prioritise the importance of the majority rather than the minority... ABS/Airbags/Traction Control.... will help save lives and will even reduce the number of collisions.
And even if you're a bonified race driver with a decade of track experience, you can still loose it! Google and read the stories of many well known so called 'real drivers' ending up in the hospital via road accidents or ending up in a damn coffin.
The options of ABS/Airbag/Traction should not be a paid option on top, that would discourage purchase due to price, but should be standard in all, and as an option, can be removed, but not affect the price.
So the 'solid' drivers amongst us, you'll still have the authentic old-skool TVR, if you want.
I for one, on todays roads and amongst a tonne-load of really bad drivers, would prefer to keep those safety options in, its not so much a matter of you making the mistake... its someone else, or a damn pothole on the road or some slick not noticed on the bend that will do it, so forget how many skills you have learnt, driving is a risky business, and it could happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere. There are too many factors that we are in no control of, so its better to give the car and yourself as much a fighting chance as possible... to at least let you end up in a nice warm bed in the ICU rather than floating through the crematorium!
While some of that is true Steve, it's worth pointing out that at least three of the crashes I know of would have not resulted in deaths if there was roll over protection on the Griff/Chim models. They are lethal in such circumstances.
I wouldnt say that Tuscans, Tamoras, Cerbs and T350's were as bad, I have seen some bad wrecks with these and usually they walk away.
I wouldnt say that Tuscans, Tamoras, Cerbs and T350's were as bad, I have seen some bad wrecks with these and usually they walk away.
I'm with SXS. I reckon it would enhance both the asking price and the overall sales of TVRs if they had a comprehensive set of safety equipment / driver aids on their cars.
Purists can then go buy a classic - or a Lotus Elise.
Lets face it. TVRs may be sports cars but they're also luxury cars. In the luxury car segment there are those that buy them because
a) they look brilliant
b) they're nice to be in (leather, air etc)
and they may not be the world's best drivers. Traction Control would be darn handy for these people - WHO HAVE MONEY!
Frankly ABS would be handy for everyone. And I'd take twin airbags, side impact airbags the whole show if it was on offer.
Sure the cars would cost 20% more - and that's after development costs. But so what - its life we're talking about here.
I agree with PW that a strong safety space is important - and with the modern cars TVR have achieved that. But there is more that they could do.
And should.
Rant over and all the above IMO only obviously. And I own one of the TVRs without all the gubbins and love it - but also have a Porsche with the full set - and think its marvellous. So there.
Purists can then go buy a classic - or a Lotus Elise.
Lets face it. TVRs may be sports cars but they're also luxury cars. In the luxury car segment there are those that buy them because
a) they look brilliant
b) they're nice to be in (leather, air etc)
and they may not be the world's best drivers. Traction Control would be darn handy for these people - WHO HAVE MONEY!
Frankly ABS would be handy for everyone. And I'd take twin airbags, side impact airbags the whole show if it was on offer.
Sure the cars would cost 20% more - and that's after development costs. But so what - its life we're talking about here.
I agree with PW that a strong safety space is important - and with the modern cars TVR have achieved that. But there is more that they could do.
And should.
Rant over and all the above IMO only obviously. And I own one of the TVRs without all the gubbins and love it - but also have a Porsche with the full set - and think its marvellous. So there.
Please explain how TC or ABS would help you if you hit a bump? Or help when you loose a front wheel on wet leaves?
Or if you go into a corner too fast ? Or the car balance is so bad that it understeers and comes off the road? Or if the rear wheels locked up because of engine braking? Or if the car hits a load of gravel or cow pats?
Or if you go into a corner too fast ? Or the car balance is so bad that it understeers and comes off the road? Or if the rear wheels locked up because of engine braking? Or if the car hits a load of gravel or cow pats?
Don said:
I reckon it would enhance both the asking price and the overall sales of TVRs
I'm not sure how adding 5 or 10 thousand to the new price of these cars will improve sales... After all, TVR aren't going to add any of these driver aids for free.
Face it, part of the reason that TVR is a performance bargain is that it doesn't have all the development costs of adding driver and passenger airbags, ABS, TC, EBD, ESP etc etc etc.
Don said:
I
Sure the cars would cost 20% more - and that's after development costs. But so what - its life we're talking about here.
OK if life is that important may I suggest you get a Cerbera fit additional bracing bars to the roll cage, a race seat with side and head protection and drive wearing a crash helmet, neck brace and full harness seat belts. Foam padding to be added to the roll cage as well. A lot lot cheaper than ABS and TC and would give you a far better feel of what the car is doing and better protection if things went wrong. You don't have to wear a nomex suit but that will protect you from broken glass in an accident.
The problem is that it is a bit inconvenient, not very fashionable and probably not acceptable to most people. It is a very effective way of reducing injuries though
shpub said:
Please explain how TC or ABS would help you if you hit a bump? Or help when you loose a front wheel on wet leaves?
Or if you go into a corner too fast ? Or the car balance is so bad that it understeers and comes off the road? Or if the rear wheels locked up because of engine braking? Or if the car hits a load of gravel or cow pats?
Oh come on. No disrespect intended BUT a good ABS system helps significantly with recovering grip after losing it under braking. And ABS should help with locking of the rears wheels with a clumsy changedown under heavy braking.
I do take your point - and about the Cerbera mods in your other post
- but other manufacturers have excellent systems that enhance safety without inconveniencing the driver or making the car unfit for the purpose for which it was designed (road use). I do think TVR could extend its customer base by offering these systems - after all every other buys them in and passes the cost on - why shouldn't TVR?
I know its not "pure" - and there are other methods of providing and improving safety but these systems WORK and leave the car visibly unchanged...so why not?
Don said:
Lets face it. TVRs may be sports cars but they're also luxury cars. In the luxury car segment there are those that buy them because
a) they look brilliant
b) they're nice to be in (leather, air etc)
and they may not be the world's best drivers. Traction Control would be darn handy for these people - WHO HAVE MONEY!
Up until maybe 5 years ago I was a 911 'fanatic'. Last one I had was a 3.2 Carrera Sport - I loved that car - no ABS, traction control or even power steering. It was, to me, a 'sports' car. When it came for replacement I drove lots of the newer 911s, and by then they had added ABS, power steering and even 4wd. But to me, they'd gone too 'luxury' for my tastes...so I left the air-cooled fold and moved to TVRs. The day TVR becomes a 'luxury' car is the day I'll lose interest.
Clearly, there are far more 'normal' folks who want to buy luxury easy-to-drive cars than the small number of demented individuals who want a 'raw' experience. Any manufacturer who simply wants to shift tin would be pretty foolish not to target their offerings at what is clearly the largest market. If you want to sell the most gallons of beer - you make it lager. If you want to get the most people watching your show - you make it a dreary soap. If you want people to buy your car, you make it user friendly...ergo Porsche, Ferrari etc now all make cars that are discernably less 'raw' than those they made their reputation with.
It's a breath of fresh air that TVR aren't making cars to suit the 'majority'; that they are making cars that appeal to a far smaller market segment.
Where it all seems to go horribly wrong is when 'luxury' purchasers end up buying 'enthusiats' cars. Bit like a Bud-drinker being fed real ale, or a soap fan watching Shakespeare; it's not what they want, and not what they expect. So, do you change the product? Add Sharon and some Cockney dialogue to Richard III to make it more popular? Or stick with the product and accept that it will not be to everyone's tastes - but those who do like it will love it.
If (when, perhaps) TVR change their focus and start to want to shift higher numbers, then I guess they will inevitably start to soften up the cars, make them easier to drive and add traction control and cup holders. At that point, no doubt some other small niche player will start to pander to the needs of the minority with 'raw' tastes. They too, over time, will undoubtedly be drawn to attraction of more bums on seats with 'friendlier' cars...and on it goes...circle of life etc.
WB
Didnt read all the posts but do agree with WB.One reason I own a TVR is because it doesnt conform to modern day standards. Yes I agree it would benefit, but isnt the"risk" part of the thrill that you are driving a car that needs more driver imput. Not so sure I would be so enthusiastic if electronic aids took over from my ability, but I am an old fart so what do I know? Having ridden old Triumphs and driven MG's maybe I am stuck in a rose tinted time warp, but hey ho whatever turns you on!
I choose those examples because I have come across many drivers who think that their cars with ABS will help them. In the gear change lock up example, ABS does nothing what so ever because the lock up is nothing to do with the brakes as they are not applied. A TC system can't do anything at all either. This is often a cause of problems at roundabouts. The car come steaming in, the gearchange goes wrong with a mismatch of revs, the rear wheels lock with the engine torque and the car is off in the scenary just like that. The driver will claim that the car just swapped ends. If the car had ABS/TC/CDM/QWERTY etc it would have not happened would often be the next quote. However the number of drivers that do engine brake is unbelievable and everytime they do it, it is like buying a lottery ticket that you hope you never win.
If you look at skids and other similar problems, by the time the driver starts to react, it is usually too late. Again ABS and TC won't help because the car has gone way beyond the point where they could have. This is why there are so many cases of such cars being in these type of accidents.
All that happens is the car will do the equivalent of a handbrake turn. If you have ABS then the wheels can't be locked up under braking (normal technique for stopping a slide once it has gone too far) so the car will simply rotate out of control. Time to look for a soft place because there is nothing you can do.
The only thing that ABS will do is prevent the wheels from locking up under braking only. It doesn't help too much with anything else. It is not a magic panacea. I think that is the point I am trying to make. If you want to drive a high performance car there is a big responsibility to improve your driving standards so that the car is driven safely. That to me does not mean relying on driver's aids to magically solve the problem.
If you look at skids and other similar problems, by the time the driver starts to react, it is usually too late. Again ABS and TC won't help because the car has gone way beyond the point where they could have. This is why there are so many cases of such cars being in these type of accidents.
All that happens is the car will do the equivalent of a handbrake turn. If you have ABS then the wheels can't be locked up under braking (normal technique for stopping a slide once it has gone too far) so the car will simply rotate out of control. Time to look for a soft place because there is nothing you can do.
The only thing that ABS will do is prevent the wheels from locking up under braking only. It doesn't help too much with anything else. It is not a magic panacea. I think that is the point I am trying to make. If you want to drive a high performance car there is a big responsibility to improve your driving standards so that the car is driven safely. That to me does not mean relying on driver's aids to magically solve the problem.
shpub said:
The only thing that ABS will do is prevent the wheels from locking up under braking only. It doesn't help too much with anything else. It is not a magic panacea. I think that is the point I am trying to make. If you want to drive a high performance car there is a big responsibility to improve your driving standards so that the car is driven safely. That to me does not mean relying on driver's aids to magically solve the problem.
I couldn't agree more. Potent cars deserve respect and driver training and expertise.
As to ABS and locking the rears on downchange:
Surely this happens precisely because the driver is already braking to the limit of grip (or nearly) and then downchanges without heel and toe? Thus introducing an engine braking effect which pushes the drive wheels over the limit of grip. In this case would not the ABS fire?
In no way do I believe that driver aids are any substitute for training/skill and so on - but anything extra on your side in the event of the unthinkable has got to be a good thing - surely...
Similarly on the exit of roundabouts a leadfoot will slide a bit and make it through with a TC system...but be in the hedge without.
How is that bad?
BTW: I have cars with the aids and without. I love my (aid-less) TVR and enjoy the pure experience it offers. But I am certain that many prospective purchasers are put off by the lack of what many percieve to be basic safety systems these days...
shpub said:
The car come steaming in, the gearchange goes wrong with a mismatch of revs, the rear wheels lock with the engine torque and the car is off in the scenary just like that. The driver will claim that the car just swapped ends.
Been there done that..... managed it at Snetterton at the chicane. Locked up the back nicely, and slid acrobatically into the corner. Fortunately I did manage to catch it (the first and only time that I have managed to catch a slide) and power off.... but it is easily done and like Steve says - no TC will help you here....
How many of the people responding to this thread have been involved in an accident in an ABS equipped vehicle or have had the misfortune to examine carefully the negative effects and impact of ABS?
I am (un)fortunate enough to have experience of both aspects.
Firstly in an accident on a dry road at 40 mph, where ABS on a new Subaru Forrester extended the braking distance and directly contributed to the inevitable collision - I didn't need to steer, merely to brake in a straight line. Initially the vehicle braked hard and didn't show any sign of locking up, then for some reason the ABS kicked in and the vehicle - albeit at a slowing pace cruised gently into the F
wit pulling the U-turn on a trunk road. Now having driven a wide variety of vehicles with and without ABS I can say almost with certainty that this would not have happened with no ABS. I can give you further examples driving Police Peugeot 406's that evidence exactly the same point.... Incidently the ABS on the Subaru was checked over and found to be working as it should.
Without going into great detail over specific examples, I've seen and investigated incidents/crashes where drivers are convinced that they should have been able to stop to avoid a collision and felt that they would have done....until the rather unassuring rhythmic pumping of the ABS was felt, whereupon nearly all the drivers responded by taking foot off the brake pedal or those that maintained pressure, felt that it caused their braking distance to increase.
ABS is false reassurance in dry conditions. It is IMO positively dangerous in the wet, especially where inexperienced drivers are concerned.
In TVR's case, it would appear that the majority of single vehicle incidents are caused by driver error - excess speed, inappropriate acceleration on bends, inappropriate braking, even inappropriate gear use. None of these would be aided by the fitting of ABS. Those incidents involving other vehicles, generally provide little time to react and even if there is time the above examples demonstrate that ABS can be an aggravating factor in such incidents.
TVR + ABS = Waste of Time..... my opinion of cause.
Ian
I am (un)fortunate enough to have experience of both aspects.
Firstly in an accident on a dry road at 40 mph, where ABS on a new Subaru Forrester extended the braking distance and directly contributed to the inevitable collision - I didn't need to steer, merely to brake in a straight line. Initially the vehicle braked hard and didn't show any sign of locking up, then for some reason the ABS kicked in and the vehicle - albeit at a slowing pace cruised gently into the F
wit pulling the U-turn on a trunk road. Now having driven a wide variety of vehicles with and without ABS I can say almost with certainty that this would not have happened with no ABS. I can give you further examples driving Police Peugeot 406's that evidence exactly the same point.... Incidently the ABS on the Subaru was checked over and found to be working as it should. Without going into great detail over specific examples, I've seen and investigated incidents/crashes where drivers are convinced that they should have been able to stop to avoid a collision and felt that they would have done....until the rather unassuring rhythmic pumping of the ABS was felt, whereupon nearly all the drivers responded by taking foot off the brake pedal or those that maintained pressure, felt that it caused their braking distance to increase.
ABS is false reassurance in dry conditions. It is IMO positively dangerous in the wet, especially where inexperienced drivers are concerned.
In TVR's case, it would appear that the majority of single vehicle incidents are caused by driver error - excess speed, inappropriate acceleration on bends, inappropriate braking, even inappropriate gear use. None of these would be aided by the fitting of ABS. Those incidents involving other vehicles, generally provide little time to react and even if there is time the above examples demonstrate that ABS can be an aggravating factor in such incidents.
TVR + ABS = Waste of Time..... my opinion of cause.
Ian
Considering that the black Volvo S80 I've just chased down the A696 from Otterburn to Newcastle probably had every driver aid available, it didn't stop the driver from driving like a twat. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the car did the driving, he just clung on.
Despite reaching 100 mph (in a 60), I stayed with him in the company Transit. If I'd been in the TVR I could have eaten him several times.
Suppose you fit all the driver aids to a TVR, and bumholes like that guy get hold of them?
We need a bit of fear factor to prevent everyone thinking they are a racing driver.
Ian
Despite reaching 100 mph (in a 60), I stayed with him in the company Transit. If I'd been in the TVR I could have eaten him several times.
Suppose you fit all the driver aids to a TVR, and bumholes like that guy get hold of them?
We need a bit of fear factor to prevent everyone thinking they are a racing driver.
Ian
pbrettle said:
The car come steaming in, the gearchange goes wrong with a mismatch of revs, the rear wheels lock with the engine torque and the car is off in the scenary just like that. The driver will claim that the car just swapped ends.
Been there done that..... managed it at Snetterton at the chicane. Locked up the back nicely, and slid acrobatically into the corner. Fortunately I did manage to catch it (the first and only time that I have managed to catch a slide) and power off.... but it is easily done and like Steve says - no TC will help you here....
What car were you in? I am minded of my last track day at Castle Combe. Absolutely piss wet - horrid. Braking for the corner just after the pit entrance and before the start/finish line (Camp?). Braking like buggery and downchanging. The back end was squirming somewhat and there was just a hint of ABS chatter - I am reasonably certain this was because I didn't raise the revs high enough with my H&T technique...certainly when I got the revs exactly right things were fine and it wasn't for lack of braking...
In short - are you sure that a modern high quality system would not assist in these circumstances? I am interested...
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