VW ownership best for Alfa??
Discussion
I know this subject has probably been discussed to death on Alfaowner but I don't go there and anyway would rather hear a more balanced comment on this.
Personally it can't happen soon enough for me. Alfa are in the doldrums, each new car is launched as the saviour and it never happens in reality, the Chrysler partnership is potentially a disaster - look what's happening to Lancia! Fiat have no sense of Alfa's heritage - the centenary celebrations were a farce and the way they have treated the Milanese workforce is disgusting.
Come on Herr Piech get your cheque book and put us Alfisti out of our misery!
Personally it can't happen soon enough for me. Alfa are in the doldrums, each new car is launched as the saviour and it never happens in reality, the Chrysler partnership is potentially a disaster - look what's happening to Lancia! Fiat have no sense of Alfa's heritage - the centenary celebrations were a farce and the way they have treated the Milanese workforce is disgusting.
Come on Herr Piech get your cheque book and put us Alfisti out of our misery!
Not sure about AO, but this one runs and runs on the Owners club forum. Many reluctantly agree that Alfa would be better off with VW, but many also can't bear the thought of it being owned by the Germans.
It's a real dilemma for Alfisti.
My feeling is that it could be potentially brilliant if VW did plough a load of investment into Alfa, but equally I fear they could just end up building Alfa badged Golfs, Passats and TT's and that would be really really sad.
In the ideal world we need Fiat to put some proper investment in, stopping farting about with side shows like Lancia and Abarth and start building some genuine Alfa's again, The Guiletta is a great start, but we need a Giullia to match the 3 series/A4 a GTV to match the Boxter/TT/Z4 and a Spider to beat the hell out of the MX5.... please
It's a real dilemma for Alfisti.
My feeling is that it could be potentially brilliant if VW did plough a load of investment into Alfa, but equally I fear they could just end up building Alfa badged Golfs, Passats and TT's and that would be really really sad.
In the ideal world we need Fiat to put some proper investment in, stopping farting about with side shows like Lancia and Abarth and start building some genuine Alfa's again, The Guiletta is a great start, but we need a Giullia to match the 3 series/A4 a GTV to match the Boxter/TT/Z4 and a Spider to beat the hell out of the MX5.... please
Fiat have categorically stated that Alfa Romeo is not for sale but never say never.
VW ownership could be a massive mistake in my opinion. They have done nothing positive for Seat.
I think the only way it could work is if they put Alfa Romeo uner the control of Lamborghini so its slightly at arms length. VW have provided financial stability and access to technology to Lamborghini but still allowed it to be relatively standalone - the same COULD work for Alfa Romeo but I somehow feel it would be more likely to become the Italian Seat and that would be a real shame
VW ownership could be a massive mistake in my opinion. They have done nothing positive for Seat.
I think the only way it could work is if they put Alfa Romeo uner the control of Lamborghini so its slightly at arms length. VW have provided financial stability and access to technology to Lamborghini but still allowed it to be relatively standalone - the same COULD work for Alfa Romeo but I somehow feel it would be more likely to become the Italian Seat and that would be a real shame
velocemitch said:
My feeling is that it could be potentially brilliant if VW did plough a load of investment into Alfa, but equally I fear they could just end up building Alfa badged Golfs, Passats and TT's and that would be really really sad.
That pretty much sums it up for me. I probably don't really care whether Alfa is a division of Fiat or a division of VAG (although obviously Italian ownership is a better fit for the history of the brand than German) as long as they build cars that appeal as Alfas.They'd likely sell more cars called Alfa Romeo than they do now if it was just a different badge on a tried-and-trusted standard mix of VAG bits and pieces, but I worry that they'd just be another identikit product like the current mainstream VAG range.
I also don't really see that there's an obvious place for Alfa in the VAG portfolio - they already have plenty of crossover with the brands they have, never mind trying to shoe-horn another one in.
The irritating thing is that the Fiat strategy for their mainstream brands really does make a kind of sense: Fiat = cheap, no-frills motoring; Alfa = sporty everyday cars; Lancia = Posh everyday cars. They just seem unable to make it work.
I think the only way it would work is if VW canned SEAT.
Having two "emotional Mediterranean sporty brands" is unlikely to work.
I would only be happy if (as mentioned above) VW did a Lamborghini or Bentley and gave Alfa financial stability but let them get on with things, but I would imagine they would more than likely rebadge existing VW offerings.
Maybe VW should launch Alfa as their RWD division? Skoda and VW would be FWD, Audi would be Quattro and Alfa would be RWD?
Having two "emotional Mediterranean sporty brands" is unlikely to work.
I would only be happy if (as mentioned above) VW did a Lamborghini or Bentley and gave Alfa financial stability but let them get on with things, but I would imagine they would more than likely rebadge existing VW offerings.
Maybe VW should launch Alfa as their RWD division? Skoda and VW would be FWD, Audi would be Quattro and Alfa would be RWD?
andy665 said:
VW ownership could be a massive mistake in my opinion. They have done nothing positive for Seat.
Eh... haven't they turned it from being a very second rate company borrowing old Fiats into a pretty good brand with some cracking cars and even a bit of motorsport pedigree now.Trouble is they don't need to do that for Alfa, most of it has already been done.
Mind you if VAG did buy Alfa Seat would be left to wither away.
velocemitch said:
andy665 said:
VW ownership could be a massive mistake in my opinion. They have done nothing positive for Seat.
Eh... haven't they turned it from being a very second rate company borrowing old Fiats into a pretty good brand with some cracking cars and even a bit of motorsport pedigree now.Trouble is they don't need to do that for Alfa, most of it has already been done.
Mind you if VAG did buy Alfa Seat would be left to wither away.
Edited by andy665 on Wednesday 29th December 16:16
There have been several articles in Car and Automotive News which seem to suggest that VW have extensively looked into how Alfa would fit into their brand portfolio and have even put together a design team and potential management structure. I believe VAG offer a wider range of platforms, higher investment, much better dealer support and I honestly believe they would build cars that fulfill Alfa's traditional brand remit.
With regard to Seat, who have only been successful in Iberia and to some extent the UK, VW have said they would return it to being a budget brand aimed at Mediterranean markets not one with sporty pretensions which you have to say they have failed at. The difference with Seat and Alfa is huge, Alfa have everything that Seat haven't - heritage.
I don't have a copy of the article but VAG have stated that Alfas would be built in Italy - don't forget that Fiat plan to build some future Alfas in the USA with Chrysler.
If VAG can do for Alfa what they have done to their other none German brands ie Lamborghini, Bugatti and to a lesser extent Bentley (and even Skoda!) then I would be very happy.
With regard to Seat, who have only been successful in Iberia and to some extent the UK, VW have said they would return it to being a budget brand aimed at Mediterranean markets not one with sporty pretensions which you have to say they have failed at. The difference with Seat and Alfa is huge, Alfa have everything that Seat haven't - heritage.
I don't have a copy of the article but VAG have stated that Alfas would be built in Italy - don't forget that Fiat plan to build some future Alfas in the USA with Chrysler.
If VAG can do for Alfa what they have done to their other none German brands ie Lamborghini, Bugatti and to a lesser extent Bentley (and even Skoda!) then I would be very happy.
Edited by crostonian on Wednesday 29th December 16:26
I think VAG's intention, should they tempt Alfa out of Fiat's mits, is to build them at a reopened Arese plant in Milan. They have approached the relevant authorities (Is that the Mafia?) about it apparently.
Personally I will make my mind up if and when it happens, or rather a year two afterwards. As I said earlier it could go either way good or bad.
Personally I will make my mind up if and when it happens, or rather a year two afterwards. As I said earlier it could go either way good or bad.
Hadn't heard this one before - my first reaction was one of horror!
But VAG have a decent record of keeping Lamborghini & Bentley fairly true to those marques traditions - and have made their cars appear to be better all round packages.
And the idea of buying an Alfa and having (hopefully) a decent dealer network and customer support to back it up is rather appealing.
Hmmmm!
But VAG have a decent record of keeping Lamborghini & Bentley fairly true to those marques traditions - and have made their cars appear to be better all round packages.
And the idea of buying an Alfa and having (hopefully) a decent dealer network and customer support to back it up is rather appealing.
Hmmmm!
crostonian said:
I believe VAG offer a wider range of platforms, higher investment, much better dealer support and I honestly believe they would build cars that fulfill Alfa's traditional brand remit.
Higher investment I probably agree with, the rest not so much.Since the cull of rubbish dealers 2 or 3 years ago, they generally seem to be pretty good. My local one, and one other that I've used, have been great - I genuinely can't fault them. It's a night-and-day difference from the previous local franchise holder who definitely fitted the "Alfa dealers are rubbish" stereotype which I don't think is valid nowadays. Across the country, it seems that some are good and some not-so-good, very much like most other marques.
The range of platforms is perhaps the bit that worries me the most - if I want a hatchback based on various items plucked from the VAG parts bin, then the VW Golf, Seat Leon, and Audi A3 can already offer me variations on that theme. Likewise if I want a saloon I can pick whichever comes closest to my desirability / affordability crosover point from the Exeo, Octavia, Passat, A4. Shove an Alfa-branded car in there and I worry it would just end up being more of the same.
Velocemitch is right - if VAG does end up buying Alfa then we'd need to wait a few years to see how it turns out. So although I'm not writing it off as the worst thing that could ever happen to Alfa, I've got to say there's nothing VAG has done with any other of their brands (with the possible exception of Lamborghini) that makes me hopeful.
Alfachick said:
This is the first I have heard of VW taking over Alfa. Do you have any links to the news storys etc?
Not sure I like the idea really though
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Please, PLEASE, never, never! Not the germans again. I've had our 147 JTD lusso [53 plate] from new and it has been THE BEST CAR WE HAVE EVER HAD!! It still looks like new and drives like new. German cars are so boring, and the interiors Not sure I like the idea really though
Alfas are cool and, and compared to 10 years ago seem on the up. LEAVE ALFA ALONE!I have also read that Volksburg would like to buy out Fezza too!
Should VW take on Alfa, then if they work it like Audi did with Lambo it could be very good. I recall Clarkson saying something along the lines of..."it's like going on a picnic, get the Germans to build the hamper but the Italians must be doing the food and vino".... Lambo's still have that OMG it's a Lambo - looks... as the Italians did what they are good at (Design) and the Germans did the under body engineering and you've got a great car.
When the 159 was developed to take over from the 156, they put a German in charge of Engineering and a very good job was done; ensuring better electronics and the car's overall engineering. Alfa's now have excellent Euro NCAP results with the new Guilletta scoring maximum points too.
If they do the Audi-Lambo thing, then IMO this could produce some positive results.
Just to add..If this Ital-German fusion gets the Alfa badge further up the JD Powers ladder / better buying confidence in the market too... (as I don't know about you, but I am so sick of people saying to me "Oh no you bought an Alfa it will just break" b
ks) will be good news all round and then we can see more lovely looking Alfa's driving about and a few less boring BMW 3-series mobiles - Yawn.
Should VW take on Alfa, then if they work it like Audi did with Lambo it could be very good. I recall Clarkson saying something along the lines of..."it's like going on a picnic, get the Germans to build the hamper but the Italians must be doing the food and vino".... Lambo's still have that OMG it's a Lambo - looks... as the Italians did what they are good at (Design) and the Germans did the under body engineering and you've got a great car.
When the 159 was developed to take over from the 156, they put a German in charge of Engineering and a very good job was done; ensuring better electronics and the car's overall engineering. Alfa's now have excellent Euro NCAP results with the new Guilletta scoring maximum points too.
If they do the Audi-Lambo thing, then IMO this could produce some positive results.
Just to add..If this Ital-German fusion gets the Alfa badge further up the JD Powers ladder / better buying confidence in the market too... (as I don't know about you, but I am so sick of people saying to me "Oh no you bought an Alfa it will just break" b
ks) will be good news all round and then we can see more lovely looking Alfa's driving about and a few less boring BMW 3-series mobiles - Yawn.Edited by PJ3074 on Thursday 30th December 10:58
Edited by PJ3074 on Thursday 30th December 11:01
Lambo and Bentley are safe beacuse they don't compete with Audi/VW markets, Seat and Skoda's quality has improved under VAG but they will always have to take the fall to protect the core brand.
Skoda's choice of engines and transmissions has been neutered to protect VW sales and Seat has been given a 5 year ultimatum after the mk2 Leon was altered so as not to out 'gti' the golf like the mk 1 did.
Why would Alfa be treated any better?
Skoda's choice of engines and transmissions has been neutered to protect VW sales and Seat has been given a 5 year ultimatum after the mk2 Leon was altered so as not to out 'gti' the golf like the mk 1 did.
Why would Alfa be treated any better?
Fair points there Ed. If Alfa got put into the same camps as Seat and Skoda it would be a sorry affair. The trouble is that VW are one of a few very cash rich manufacturer's and they want to go shopping. They now own Porsche, have sights on buying Fezza, Alfa and will probably take Fiat too if it got the chance.
Alfa is as special as Lambo, Masser and Ferrari, that's not something you can overly frig around with. By all means provide German Engineering Know How, but don't p*ss in the cake mix in the process.
At the end of the day we can all bleat on about it, but what will be will be. Lets just hope it goes the same way as Audi-Lambo and then it won't be all that bad.
Alfa is as special as Lambo, Masser and Ferrari, that's not something you can overly frig around with. By all means provide German Engineering Know How, but don't p*ss in the cake mix in the process.
At the end of the day we can all bleat on about it, but what will be will be. Lets just hope it goes the same way as Audi-Lambo and then it won't be all that bad.
PJ3074 said:
Alfa is as special as Lambo, Masser and Ferrari, that's not something you can overly frig around with. By all means provide German Engineering Know How, but don't p*ss in the cake mix in the process.
.
It is to us, but to VW? That is the real question..
Everyone seems to be quite content with the VAG handling of Lamborghini and they haven't tarnished the brand, but it still doesn't stop me urging for the pure stupidity of the pre-VAG cars, the gallardo/murcielago cosmetically look quite sensible to me? and can't help but see the VAG interior parts bin. I know Alfa/Fiat do this as well with some of the switchgear but generally not entire climate control/radio panels.
Stuck in a dilemma, under the control of :-
Fiat - FWD platform, little money heading Alfa's way but seems to be developing some great cars, but now the styling seems to be the biggest dissapointment (becoming too commercial and blending into the crowd). Also not entirely sure what is happening with this whole Chrysler acquisition, I would like to see the higher HP units return to Alfa, but why take a US base and modify it
(cost...I know, I know)VW - I believe they bought Seat as an Alfa competitor, so this leaves them in a very difficult position. What are they going to do about the Alfa engines? I don't think Alfisti want to see existing VAG units be bolted directly under the hood, thus would Alfisti prefer Italian Fiat derived units under the hood, or VW derived units? Personally I would go Italian.
However VW could potentially put a lot of money into Alfa, bring back manufacturing to Milan, they have employed a lot of the old Alfa design team/engineers and might just have a chance of bringing it to where it needs to be.
If Alfa could do the following, I really can't see them failing :-
1) Return to focus on driving dynamics (RWD for Giulietta and above) and engine noise/character (Ferrari engineer to produce a new junior V6/V8 for the range)
2) Maintain current levels of build quality, but it doesn't mean you have to design out the character, just maintain the quality.
3) Incease and continue to improve dealer network
4) Return to Alfa design excellence, whoever isn't signing off the 2uettottanta is a complete nut job. This with a TBI engine (with added aural pleasure) and sub 30k price bracket would sell by the absolute bucket load and would be a great car to reintroduce to the US market
5) Stop halting the re-entrance into the US market - If Fiat keep Alfa, revise the US strategy and start building an Alfa network from Chrysler spare capacity and ensure the dealerships are run correctly.
The brand has a massive following, how many manufacturers selling 14k supermini's as their bread and butter, can push out 500 sports cars (8C) for nearly 140k each and have an overflowing order book. Just wish the management would get themselves in order!
Edited by V6Alfisti on Friday 7th January 13:48
Somehow I just can't see Alfa or any of the other brands under FIAT going to VAG.
Let's look at this from a different angle.
Laid out like that, there's no way Alfa could fit under the VW umbrella.
Let's look at this from a different angle.
| FIAT Brand | Competes with VAG Brand |
|---|---|
| FIAT | Skoda / Small Volkswagen / Small Seat |
| Lancia | Audi / Larger Volkswagen / Larger Seat |
| Alfa Romeo | Audi / Sporty Seats / Sporty Volkswagen / Low end Porsche |
| Ferrari | Porsche / Bugatti / Lamborghini / Top end Audi |
| Maserati | Bugatti / Bentley |
| Chrysler?? | Audi / Porsche / Lamborghini |
Laid out like that, there's no way Alfa could fit under the VW umbrella.
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