Urraco or 246 Dino?

[dnorth]

I'm looking for some help from the combined expertise of PHers

Ever since they were announced, I've loved the Urraco and the 246 Dino. I've only ever sat in one Urraco (back in 1976) but I've driven a number of 246 Dinos and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. The Urraco is much rarer - and therefore more difficult to find - and I know it got less favourable road test reports at the time, but it's a quarter the price now. Is it really that much worse than the Dino, and would I be terribly disappointed if I bought one instead of a Dino?

I live in New Zealand where Dinos are rare, let alone Urracos, so I can't just pop out and test drive one, although I'll be in the UK next year, so will try and track one down then.

In the meantime, does anybody on here have experience of living with the Urraco, and, if so, how does it compare with the Dino?

Thank you in advance!!

[1]

There is a guy who used to post on here called Urraco250, he owns one and is somewhat of an expert. It looks like he hasn't posted for sometime, might be worth emailing him.

[dnorth]

Thanks, I'll do that.

[rubystone]

dnorth said:

I live in New Zealand where Dinos are rare, let alone Urracos, so I can't just pop out and test drive one

...or indeed pick up a spare part for one...

Dino will always be easier to sell on of course....Uraccos are a 1/4 of the price for very good reasons. I actually quite like them and of course they begat the Jalpa which has a certain 1980s "coolness" about it, as well as a great engine note.

[dnorth]

rubystone said:

dnorth said:

I live in New Zealand where Dinos are rare, let alone Urracos, so I can't just pop out and test drive one

...or indeed pick up a spare part for one...

Dino will always be easier to sell on of course....Uraccos are a 1/4 of the price for very good reasons.

I know everybody raves about Dinos (and having driven several, I can see why) but why is the Urraco so much cheaper? They were more expensive new, have similar performance, but totally different styling. Is it just that Dinos always have been more fashionable, or are there more objective reasons?

[JMC1]

If you are prepared to spend big money for a 246 dino why not be really different and see if you can find a lambo silhouette which are very rare and are one of the coolest urraco derivatives plus you would probably have enough cash left over for a really nice Ferrari 308 as well. Happy days indeed.

[LongLiveTazio]

dnorth said:

rubystone said:

dnorth said:

I live in New Zealand where Dinos are rare, let alone Urracos, so I can't just pop out and test drive one

...or indeed pick up a spare part for one...

Dino will always be easier to sell on of course....Uraccos are a 1/4 of the price for very good reasons.

I know everybody raves about Dinos (and having driven several, I can see why) but why is the Urraco so much cheaper? They were more expensive new, have similar performance, but totally different styling. Is it just that Dinos always have been more fashionable, or are there more objective reasons?

Styling, provenance, revisionist history and its importance within the Ferrari marque, etc.

[dnorth]

JMC1 said:

If you are prepared to spend big money for a 246 dino why not be really different and see if you can find a lambo silhouette which are very rare and are one of the coolest urraco derivatives plus you would probably have enough cash left over for a really nice Ferrari 308 as well. Happy days indeed.

A fair point, but I happen to think the Silhouette is a very ugly car, although the Jalpa is even worse - and a 308GTB or GTS looks almost as pretty as the 246

[dnorth]

LongLiveTazio said:

dnorth said:

rubystone said:

dnorth said:

I live in New Zealand where Dinos are rare, let alone Urracos, so I can't just pop out and test drive one

...or indeed pick up a spare part for one...

Dino will always be easier to sell on of course....Uraccos are a 1/4 of the price for very good reasons.

I know everybody raves about Dinos (and having driven several, I can see why) but why is the Urraco so much cheaper? They were more expensive new, have similar performance, but totally different styling. Is it just that Dinos always have been more fashionable, or are there more objective reasons?

Styling, provenance, revisionist history and its importance within the Ferrari marque, etc.

All of which (if you substitute Lamborghini for Ferrari) I would suggest also apply to the Urraco

[LongLiveTazio]

dnorth said:

All of which (if you substitute Lamborghini for Ferrari) I would suggest also apply to the Urraco

I can't say I agree.

Provenance: the car was announced only a few years after the Miura but production was delayed for several years. The Dino had a five year head start so when it came along it wasn't exactly breaking new ground like the Miura had and it was nothing like the touring GTs; the small-capacity V8 wasn't exactly spectacular either or what Lamborghinis are best remembered for. Contrast that with the Dino that has a race-derived engine and comes from a company that had been in business a lot longer with much more pedigree.

Styling: no contest for me, classical Italian sports car vs a rather heavy body shape that looks pretty poor now, as does the 308 GT4, which originated from the same place. Proportionally the Dino is probably the best looking Ferrari ever made.

Revisionist history: obviously here the Dino is a much more important car for Ferrari than the Uracco was for Lamborghini. It was the start of road-going mid-engined Ferraris, it was the beginning of having a properly tiered line-up and a switch away from Enzo calling every shot. I've met a few people who've driven them and they reckon that it is incomparably modern compared to almost anything else from the period and describe it as an utter joy to drive. One bloke I met owned three of them, so enamoured was he, and he had plenty of other more 'exotic' stuff in the garage. I don't think he is atypical.

It's a proper lightweight sports car and as such isn't *really* a competitor with the Uracco, which is a much heavier and more ponderous 2+2.

[Ocarru]

Op,

Can't really answer your question, but they both represent great styles albeit that the stylists were working to different requirements/criteria.

Commenting on styles is everyone's entitlement, but go and see both and you will appreciate how stunning they both are. Gandini was a fantastic stylist and that can stick in some people's throats for some reason.

[AndrewW-G]

Ocarru said:

Gandini was a fantastic stylist and that can stick in some people's throats for some reason.

I'd suggest one reason was that Gandini's cars tended to be very dramatic, but very much of their time, in the same way that the futuristic outfits in 60's-70's scifi films are and as such are subjected far more than most to the passage of time .
Whilst Fioravanti's designs tended to be a little less dramatic and a tad more discreet, like a 60's-70's Saville Row suit, yes the lapels and details may go in and out of fashion, but the overall shape and quality will remain timeless.
I haven’t had much seat time in a Urraco (at most 40 mins) but do have plenty in 206 & 246 Dino’s and I’d have to say that a good Dino is a very easy car to drive in modern traffic, whilst the Urraco seemed heavier on the controls, but that may just be down to the rather dishevelled state of the Lambo I drove.

Having said all that, the Lamborghini does represent far better value for money at the moment

[urraco 250 s]

Hi Everyone,

Well i'm back after having a great year with the Urraco 250 s (Sarah) a good friend told me about this topic and thought i would have a read. I have owned the Sarah now 4 and half year and love every second.

Well first of all for me no Ferrari come's close to the dramatic look's of a Lambo. As Stephan Winkelmann has said Lamborghini's are the bad boy's of the supercar world. Back to the question it depend's on what Urraco you are after P250, P250 s, P300 (Both 250 and s are belt driven and 300 is chain driven). Also you need to take your time and look at afew Urraco's first and find one that has been looked after. Also it's good have history, old record's ETC but it's what the car has done in the past few year's that's important. No good buying a car that has only done 200 mile's in a year or been left standing as seal's will dry and leak's will happen then that's when you have problem's. Also don't be put off by high milage my Urraco has done 64,000 miles.

I brought Sarah as a rolling restoration project. I brought her for £11,400 and spent around £42,000 in restoration fee's. Here is the repaint thread i posted if you wanted to look at it http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Lamborghini still make part's so they are quite easy to come by and all the owner's will help you find part's too. At MPH in 2009 i got offered a very good price £65,000 from a collector but a good urraco price is between 30,000 - 40,000 and i believe the price will only go up.

As it has been said in post above the urraco is getting a rare car and for me that is only part of the appeal i think there is less than 25 Urraco's in the uk I can't say for the number of Dino's. Also People that say the Urraco is a waste of money, ponderous, Always going wrong, poor man's Lambo have never been behind the wheel and goin for a drive. The Urraco has the look's people are away's saying what stunning looking car she is, The noise 4 twin webber's and if the Urraco you are going to look/buy at hasn't got a sport's exhaust i would recommend you invest in one it will make you fall in love with the Urraco even more, Power is more than enough don't forget these are classic's they are meant to be driven with respect not raged like the new Lambo's but once you get everything warm and you want you flex your right foot there is plenty of power to have. There is nothing like the sound of a urraco going through country road's and the smile you have knowing you are in one of the prettist Lambo's ever made.

I made my choice and i would never go back

Good luck and hope i have helped

[JMC1]

Just a quick one to Mr. Urraco 250S. Firstly love your car, love urraco's in general, such pretty cars.
Out of noseyness did your car start life on registration number SUT667N, because if it did I know the provenance for the cars first 2 1/2 years as I used to travel to school twice a week in that one. If it is I can tell you of the highs and lows of its early life. Lovely car though.

[dnorth]

LongLiveTazio said:

dnorth said:

All of which (if you substitute Lamborghini for Ferrari) I would suggest also apply to the Urraco

I can't say I agree.

Provenance: the car was announced only a few years after the Miura but production was delayed for several years. The Dino had a five year head start so when it came along it wasn't exactly breaking new ground like the Miura had and it was nothing like the touring GTs; the small-capacity V8 wasn't exactly spectacular either or what Lamborghinis are best remembered for. Contrast that with the Dino that has a race-derived engine and comes from a company that had been in business a lot longer with much more pedigree.

Styling: no contest for me, classical Italian sports car vs a rather heavy body shape that looks pretty poor now, as does the 308 GT4, which originated from the same place. Proportionally the Dino is probably the best looking Ferrari ever made.

Revisionist history: obviously here the Dino is a much more important car for Ferrari than the Uracco was for Lamborghini. It was the start of road-going mid-engined Ferraris, it was the beginning of having a properly tiered line-up and a switch away from Enzo calling every shot. I've met a few people who've driven them and they reckon that it is incomparably modern compared to almost anything else from the period and describe it as an utter joy to drive. One bloke I met owned three of them, so enamoured was he, and he had plenty of other more 'exotic' stuff in the garage. I don't think he is atypical.

It's a proper lightweight sports car and as such isn't *really* a competitor with the Uracco, which is a much heavier and more ponderous 2+2.

As ever, Ferrari versus Lamborghini, the debate is never-ending and impossible to resolve!
I will agree that the 246 Dino is just about the best looking car ever produced. However, the Urraco is a very striking and attractive design. The Urraco was Lamborghini's first attempt at an "affordable" car, the Dino - "almost a Ferrari" in the contemporary advertising - was Ferrari's attempt to expand the market. The Dino's race-bred V6 was replaced by a V8 in the 308 series. The Urraco led to the Silhouette and the Jalpa and, indirectly, to the Gallardo, Lamborghini's biggest selling model. The 246 Dino led to the 308 series, 355, 360, 430 and the Itaklia. Yes, the Urraco suffered from its delayed intoduction, high manufacturing costs and the start of Lamborghini's lurch from financial crisis to financial crisis, but, at the time, road tests were very complimentary, particularly when compared to the GT4.
A quick trawl through my bookshelves came up with these comparisons:
1974 246 Dino: 2.4 litres; 190BHP; 166lb/ft torque; max speed 140mph; 0-60 in 7.1 secs; weighht 1186kg.
1974 Urraco 250S: 2.5 litres; 220BHP; 166lb/ft; max speed 140mph; 0-60 in 8.7 secs; weight 1308kgs.
1976 308GT4: 2995cc; 255BHP; 210lb/ft; max speed 151mph; 0-60 in 6.4 secs; weight 1285kgs.
1976 Urraco 300S: 2995cc; 250BHP; 195lb/ft; max speed 150mph; 0-60 in 7.6 secs; weight approx 1400kgs.
I have driven a number of Dinos (246GT, 246GTS) and will agree that they are wonderful, and much more fun to drive than the 308GT4. I have also known people who have owned Dinos and GT4s for long periods of time, so have a good understanding of their respective pros and cons.
I have never driven, or known anybody who has owned, a Lamborghini Urraco and the purpose of this post was to try and get past road test reports and hearsay to first hand knowledge and experience. I aim to find a car or cars to try in the UK in February, so I can draw my own conclusions as to drivability etc, but would like some information prior to that.

[dnorth]

Ocarru said:

Op,

Can't really answer your question, but they both represent great styles albeit that the stylists were working to different requirements/criteria.

Commenting on styles is everyone's entitlement, but go and see both and you will appreciate how stunning they both are. Gandini was a fantastic stylist and that can stick in some people's throats for some reason.

Agreed - the 246 Dino is, in my opinion, one of the prettiest cars ever built. The Urraco is a striking and very attractive design and has the added bonus of rarity. As I said in my original post, I've loved them both since they first appeared.

[dnorth]

AndrewW-G said:

Ocarru said:

Gandini was a fantastic stylist and that can stick in some people's throats for some reason.

I'd suggest one reason was that Gandini's cars tended to be very dramatic, but very much of their time, in the same way that the futuristic outfits in 60's-70's scifi films are and as such are subjected far more than most to the passage of time .
Whilst Fioravanti's designs tended to be a little less dramatic and a tad more discreet, like a 60's-70's Saville Row suit, yes the lapels and details may go in and out of fashion, but the overall shape and quality will remain timeless.
I haven’t had much seat time in a Urraco (at most 40 mins) but do have plenty in 206 & 246 Dino’s and I’d have to say that a good Dino is a very easy car to drive in modern traffic, whilst the Urraco seemed heavier on the controls, but that may just be down to the rather dishevelled state of the Lambo I drove.

Having said all that, the Lamborghini does represent far better value for money at the moment

As you say, 246 Dinos are very easy to drive (and to see out of!), I've enjoyed every one I've ever drive. BUT - the Urraco is much less expensive to buy and I've always liked them, too, just never had the chance to drive one. What I'm trying to get to is - does the difference in price reflect an inherent superiority of the Dino over the Urraco, or is it the result of, for want of a better term, prejudice for Ferrari over Lamborghini. (My impression is that the older "classic" Ferraris are always more expensive than the equivalent Lamborghini!)

Edited by dnorth on Sunday 2nd January 03:11

[dnorth]

urraco 250 s said:

Hi Everyone,

Well i'm back after having a great year with the Urraco 250 s (Sarah) a good friend told me about this topic and thought i would have a read. I have owned the Sarah now 4 and half year and love every second.

Well first of all for me no Ferrari come's close to the dramatic look's of a Lambo. As Stephan Winkelmann has said Lamborghini's are the bad boy's of the supercar world. Back to the question it depend's on what Urraco you are after P250, P250 s, P300 (Both 250 and s are belt driven and 300 is chain driven). Also you need to take your time and look at afew Urraco's first and find one that has been looked after. Also it's good have history, old record's ETC but it's what the car has done in the past few year's that's important. No good buying a car that has only done 200 mile's in a year or been left standing as seal's will dry and leak's will happen then that's when you have problem's. Also don't be put off by high milage my Urraco has done 64,000 miles.

I brought Sarah as a rolling restoration project. I brought her for £11,400 and spent around £42,000 in restoration fee's. Here is the repaint thread i posted if you wanted to look at it http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Lamborghini still make part's so they are quite easy to come by and all the owner's will help you find part's too. At MPH in 2009 i got offered a very good price £65,000 from a collector but a good urraco price is between 30,000 - 40,000 and i believe the price will only go up.

As it has been said in post above the urraco is getting a rare car and for me that is only part of the appeal i think there is less than 25 Urraco's in the uk I can't say for the number of Dino's. Also People that say the Urraco is a waste of money, ponderous, Always going wrong, poor man's Lambo have never been behind the wheel and goin for a drive. The Urraco has the look's people are away's saying what stunning looking car she is, The noise 4 twin webber's and if the Urraco you are going to look/buy at hasn't got a sport's exhaust i would recommend you invest in one it will make you fall in love with the Urraco even more, Power is more than enough don't forget these are classic's they are meant to be driven with respect not raged like the new Lambo's but once you get everything warm and you want you flex your right foot there is plenty of power to have. There is nothing like the sound of a urraco going through country road's and the smile you have knowing you are in one of the prettist Lambo's ever made.

I made my choice and i would never go back

Good luck and hope i have helped

Thank you very much indeed - this is exactly the sort of post I hoped to get in response to my question. I have had some replies on other forums and via private emails, so I am beginning to buld up a decent picture. I am just off to look at your repaint thread

Edited by dnorth on Sunday 2nd January 03:15

[urraco 250 s]

JMC1 said:

Just a quick one to Mr. Urraco 250S. Firstly love your car, love urraco's in general, such pretty cars.
Out of noseyness did your car start life on registration number SUT667N, because if it did I know the provenance for the cars first 2 1/2 years as I used to travel to school twice a week in that one. If it is I can tell you of the highs and lows of its early life. Lovely car though.

Thanks you no the reg was TGJ 285M i found out that she was owned by a woman first and that she had a resturant in knightsbridge

[urraco 250 s]

dnorth said:

urraco 250 s said:

Hi Everyone,

Well i'm back after having a great year with the Urraco 250 s (Sarah) a good friend told me about this topic and thought i would have a read. I have owned the Sarah now 4 and half year and love every second.

Well first of all for me no Ferrari come's close to the dramatic look's of a Lambo. As Stephan Winkelmann has said Lamborghini's are the bad boy's of the supercar world. Back to the question it depend's on what Urraco you are after P250, P250 s, P300 (Both 250 and s are belt driven and 300 is chain driven). Also you need to take your time and look at afew Urraco's first and find one that has been looked after. Also it's good have history, old record's ETC but it's what the car has done in the past few year's that's important. No good buying a car that has only done 200 mile's in a year or been left standing as seal's will dry and leak's will happen then that's when you have problem's. Also don't be put off by high milage my Urraco has done 64,000 miles.

I brought Sarah as a rolling restoration project. I brought her for £11,400 and spent around £42,000 in restoration fee's. Here is the repaint thread i posted if you wanted to look at it http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Lamborghini still make part's so they are quite easy to come by and all the owner's will help you find part's too. At MPH in 2009 i got offered a very good price £65,000 from a collector but a good urraco price is between 30,000 - 40,000 and i believe the price will only go up.

As it has been said in post above the urraco is getting a rare car and for me that is only part of the appeal i think there is less than 25 Urraco's in the uk I can't say for the number of Dino's. Also People that say the Urraco is a waste of money, ponderous, Always going wrong, poor man's Lambo have never been behind the wheel and goin for a drive. The Urraco has the look's people are away's saying what stunning looking car she is, The noise 4 twin webber's and if the Urraco you are going to look/buy at hasn't got a sport's exhaust i would recommend you invest in one it will make you fall in love with the Urraco even more, Power is more than enough don't forget these are classic's they are meant to be driven with respect not raged like the new Lambo's but once you get everything warm and you want you flex your right foot there is plenty of power to have. There is nothing like the sound of a urraco going through country road's and the smile you have knowing you are in one of the prettist Lambo's ever made.

I made my choice and i would never go back

Good luck and hope i have helped

Thank you very much indeed - this is exactly the sort of post I hoped to get in response to my question. I have had some replies on other forums and via private emails, so I am beginning to buld up a decent picture. I am just off to look at your repaint thread

Edited by dnorth on Sunday 2nd January 03:15

Glad i could be of some help when you come to the uk this year please feel free to drop me an E-mail. I will try and get some Urraco's together so you can talk to the owner's and get a better insight to Lambo ownership here is a Video of mine after a service and new exhaust fitted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwxGPjPTPVc