Appointing a builder - any basic tips?
Discussion
We have the tenders in and are almost ready to roll with our house refurb. Hubby and I are comparing the tenders and I was just wondering if there are any basic rules or things to consider when deciding which builder to choose? We have not done this before so any help is most welcome - especially from builders!! Thanks all
S
S
See previous work and speaking to previous customers is a definate.
Try to research as much stuff as possible in order to find out the way things should be done, you can then question anything which doesn't sound right (obviously this is easier said than done).
Reasonable stage payments?
Home address?
Home landline number?
How much experience?
Do they seem easy to work with? I'm in the trade and i'm willing to go the extra mile to keep people happy- believe me a lot of tradesmen still think its 2007 and the answer will typically be along the lines of 'i aint doing that'
Do they seem trustworthy?
Is any of the work subbed out? If so which work and to who exactly. I do paving which is similar to double glazing in respect that a lot of people will sell the job promising the earth only for it to be subbed out to someone who doesnt give a damn because they are earning peanuts.
That said subbed out work does not always mean its going to be bad by any means.
Try to look at all that before the price. Make sure each quote is like for like. A common trick is to keep initial prices low for a low spec job which inevitibly gets more expensive and often more expensive than the original expensive quotes.
If it were me i would go with the person you like, trust and who gives a reasonable price for what you have asked. If its cheap its cheap for a reason 99% of the time, even in todays climate. No point going with someone you feel awkward with no matter what his price is.
Try to research as much stuff as possible in order to find out the way things should be done, you can then question anything which doesn't sound right (obviously this is easier said than done).
Reasonable stage payments?
Home address?
Home landline number?
How much experience?
Do they seem easy to work with? I'm in the trade and i'm willing to go the extra mile to keep people happy- believe me a lot of tradesmen still think its 2007 and the answer will typically be along the lines of 'i aint doing that'
Do they seem trustworthy?
Is any of the work subbed out? If so which work and to who exactly. I do paving which is similar to double glazing in respect that a lot of people will sell the job promising the earth only for it to be subbed out to someone who doesnt give a damn because they are earning peanuts.
That said subbed out work does not always mean its going to be bad by any means.
Try to look at all that before the price. Make sure each quote is like for like. A common trick is to keep initial prices low for a low spec job which inevitibly gets more expensive and often more expensive than the original expensive quotes.
If it were me i would go with the person you like, trust and who gives a reasonable price for what you have asked. If its cheap its cheap for a reason 99% of the time, even in todays climate. No point going with someone you feel awkward with no matter what his price is.
References are essential but make your own judgement on the quality of the work by looking at some previous work.
People have different interpretations of what is a good job. I've seen some pretty shoddy work but the customer has been happy.
Find a builder who you would be happy working with and make sure that the boss is 'hands on' and present on site.
Make sure that the company you use isn't flitting between your job and another.
Don't necessarily accept the cheapest quote. There's usually a reason for this.
If you can get a quote that is itemised to the finest detail it shows that the builder has priced correctly and you've got no hidden 'extras'.
Communication is key.
People have different interpretations of what is a good job. I've seen some pretty shoddy work but the customer has been happy.
Find a builder who you would be happy working with and make sure that the boss is 'hands on' and present on site.
Make sure that the company you use isn't flitting between your job and another.
Don't necessarily accept the cheapest quote. There's usually a reason for this.
If you can get a quote that is itemised to the finest detail it shows that the builder has priced correctly and you've got no hidden 'extras'.
Communication is key.
Not sure I would agree with all the answers??
Most important question is what is the job? How big would also cover some elements. Is it refurbishment, new build or a mix of both.
To keep variations and additions to a minimum you will need an accurate and strong specification. Do you have one? You do mention 'tenders' so I assume you have some sort of scope of works and hopefully an Architect (though not necessarily - however you do say you have never done this before).
As I said, there are a few points any advice will depend on, such as type and extent of work. However the main general pieces of advice given are valid, such as references or more importantly seeing other previous or current projects.
Regrettably you should beware of some advice, 'making sure the builder hasn't got another job he can flit between' is not very helpful. There will be programme issues that may mean a slow down on certain works, especially where say plumbers or electricians are catching up, would you prefer to pay for your builder to stand and watch? Of course it also is relevant to how big the job is, what it is and of course how big the contractor is.
The other point I would like to address from my brief read of responses, is writing that 'time is of the essence' will give you some sort of protection. A great legal piece of jargon but toothless without other associated facts such as what is the agreed impact or loss (£'s) on exceeding this time, what is the agreed programme and what input do you need to give, by when, in order not to impact this programme. I am of course happy to concede to anyone more experienced in the legal aspect but this is my experience and has worked for me in the past (both ways
)
I would suggest you ask for a detailed programme of works, agree a period and date for completion, agree an amount of weekly 'loss' for over running and ask for a list of dates by which you will have had to give complete details for all provisional sums and client expenditure or provision of items. In other words, when do they need the layout of the bathroom to be agreed by, when do they want the exact bathroom suite specification to order and purchase an when you need to have the taps that you are supplying on site by etc.
I see you are in the SE? Please feel free to email for further info if you need to.
And good luck
Boshly
Most important question is what is the job? How big would also cover some elements. Is it refurbishment, new build or a mix of both.
To keep variations and additions to a minimum you will need an accurate and strong specification. Do you have one? You do mention 'tenders' so I assume you have some sort of scope of works and hopefully an Architect (though not necessarily - however you do say you have never done this before).
As I said, there are a few points any advice will depend on, such as type and extent of work. However the main general pieces of advice given are valid, such as references or more importantly seeing other previous or current projects.
Regrettably you should beware of some advice, 'making sure the builder hasn't got another job he can flit between' is not very helpful. There will be programme issues that may mean a slow down on certain works, especially where say plumbers or electricians are catching up, would you prefer to pay for your builder to stand and watch? Of course it also is relevant to how big the job is, what it is and of course how big the contractor is.
The other point I would like to address from my brief read of responses, is writing that 'time is of the essence' will give you some sort of protection. A great legal piece of jargon but toothless without other associated facts such as what is the agreed impact or loss (£'s) on exceeding this time, what is the agreed programme and what input do you need to give, by when, in order not to impact this programme. I am of course happy to concede to anyone more experienced in the legal aspect but this is my experience and has worked for me in the past (both ways
)I would suggest you ask for a detailed programme of works, agree a period and date for completion, agree an amount of weekly 'loss' for over running and ask for a list of dates by which you will have had to give complete details for all provisional sums and client expenditure or provision of items. In other words, when do they need the layout of the bathroom to be agreed by, when do they want the exact bathroom suite specification to order and purchase an when you need to have the taps that you are supplying on site by etc.
I see you are in the SE? Please feel free to email for further info if you need to.
And good luck
Boshly
Boshly said:
To keep variations and additions to a minimum you will need an accurate and strong specification. Do you have one? You do mention 'tenders' so I assume you have some sort of scope of works and hopefully an Architect (though not necessarily - however you do say you have never done this before).
Boshly
As per the above, assuming there is a scope of works/specification/detailed plans which have been tendered (in the traditional construction sense) rather than a Bill of Quantities, and depending on the value of the works, the best £20 odd you can spend is on a JCT Minor Works building contract. Using this will tie them to a contract that has mechanisms in place to adjudicate any aspect of cost/time over-run assuming you state all this in writing. I'm always amazed more people don't use these for 'small' jobs when they're going to hand over something like £20k plus to and builder/contractor.Boshly
Nuisance_Value said:
Boshly said:
To keep variations and additions to a minimum you will need an accurate and strong specification. Do you have one? You do mention 'tenders' so I assume you have some sort of scope of works and hopefully an Architect (though not necessarily - however you do say you have never done this before).
Boshly
As per the above, assuming there is a scope of works/specification/detailed plans which have been tendered (in the traditional construction sense) rather than a Bill of Quantities, and depending on the value of the works, the best £20 odd you can spend is on a JCT Minor Works building contract. Using this will tie them to a contract that has mechanisms in place to adjudicate any aspect of cost/time over-run assuming you state all this in writing. I'm always amazed more people don't use these for 'small' jobs when they're going to hand over something like £20k plus to and builder/contractor.Boshly
Definately use a small works contract, best advice on PH this week
Boshly said:
Regrettably you should beware of some advice, 'making sure the builder hasn't got another job he can flit between' is not very helpful. There will be programme issues that may mean a slow down on certain works, especially where say plumbers or electricians are catching up, would you prefer to pay for your builder to stand and watch? Of course it also is relevant to how big the job is, what it is and of course how big the contractor is.
Qcarchoo said:
Boshly said:
Regrettably you should beware of some advice, 'making sure the builder hasn't got another job he can flit between' is not very helpful. There will be programme issues that may mean a slow down on certain works, especially where say plumbers or electricians are catching up, would you prefer to pay for your builder to stand and watch? Of course it also is relevant to how big the job is, what it is and of course how big the contractor is.
Bearing in mind, the builder could be on another job whilst other trades are doing their thing. If you want permanent presence ask for it but remember it will bear a cost. We closed one of our sites over the bad weather our main competitors didn't; but as I pointed out to my clients that's why they're 20-30% more expensive than us, and they couldn't lay bricks/blocks or concrete any more than we could.
All IMHO of course.
Pobolycwm said:
Definately use a small works contract, best advice on PH this week
JCT also do a contract for Home Owners who haven't appointed Professional help to oversee / manage the works which is a bit easier to understand than the Minor Works version.Also, Federation of Master Builders (FMB) do a Plain English Domestic Building Contract which maybe easier to understand for the layman.
Regardless of which contract you choose make sure you understand it before you use it. The JCT is a bit wordy.
Comparing the tenders, firstly look for large variations (up or down) in prices for the same items. If one contractor is quoting £100 for all the plastering when the rest have quoted £1,500 then there's a mistake.
If there are any figures you feel are wrong then feel free to query them. Ask the tenderer to confirm their price(s).
If you are definately not going to use one of the tenderers then write to them thanking them for their time but you will not be accepting their quotation. It's not mandatory but 'nice' to acknowledge peoples efforts.
Working relationship with your choosen contractor is very important. If you feel you can't talk to them then you'll have a bad build.
Have the tenderers included a timescale for completing the works? Are they similar or widely different?
mk1fan said:
Loads of excellent advice
Do all of this too. I wasn't aware of the JCT Home Owners contract, or the FMB one as I've never had cause to use them, but both organisations are very well known and respected in construction industry so either one should cover you pretty well, without the additional details of full JCT. However, For the negligible cost, it's a whole load of piece of mind and provides some additional security.
cuneus said:
Never pay up front (staged at specific milestones is OK)
^^^^^This is, by far, the most important piece of advice suggested so far. If you do this, you've got a good chance of coming out the other end without getting screwed over.
Even the most honourable builders lose interest once the money is in the bank. Its human nature.
cuneus said:
Take an interest and check what they are doing
This is good advice too. Don't let them try to baffle you with 'builder speak' and get them to explain things that you don't understand (and do not feel embarrased about this - if you were an expert, you wouldn't be employing their services at all).The advice on getting 'a contract' is good in theory, but in reality a lot of (even decent & honest) builders will be reluctant to go for a full-blown contract as it is rarely written with their best interests in mind. Instead, I would suggest a basic written agreement (bulleted list) of the key points relating to the works. Get the builders input into the things that he wants recorded, and get him to check it and make an amendments he feels are appropriate. If you can't reach an agreement at this stage, then there is no chance you'll see eye-to-eye once the works have started. You'll need to get it signed by an indepedent witness for it to be worthwhile.
I'll post up a recent one I used if I get a chance, but needs to include things such as
- payment terms and stages
- who is responsible for arranging building control stage assessment sign off
- any increase in costs must be agreed in writing beforehand (important one this)
swerni said:
Easy, get someone round you trust implicitly.
That's what I did, didn't I Boshly
Absolutely but then not everyone has the advantage of knowing me, you lucky guy you That's what I did, didn't I Boshly
we had a few typical 'issues' but nothing we couldn't sort out between us. BTW I would also recommend Steve (and Lisa) as perfect clients 
swerni said:
Would also recommend speaking to D14AYS as Dean is lovely bloke and not at all scary.
If you can use someone who you know and understands your expectations and can manage them. it makes life sooo much easier.
Absolutely and in the absence of knowing someone, recommendations are the next best thing, but still try and utilise most of the above, it's just easier to do so with someone you know or has come recommended If you can use someone who you know and understands your expectations and can manage them. it makes life sooo much easier.
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