Protein, at night or first thing in the morning?
Discussion
Just wanted to see if the PH gym goers knew what's best.
Currently I take a creatine & protein mix (cyclone) first thing in the morning about 45min before the gym. I then have a recovery protein mix within 60min of leaving the gym. Normal diet is healthy through the day with protein bias.
My question is should I move the morning pre-workout shake to just before bed? I've been reliably informed that if you are going to take a protein shake before or after the gym it's better to take it before? I do both to fuel and then recover. Would refueling the previous evening work just as well? I'm asking as maybe the 2 shakes in a relatively short time are hitting max protein intake and actually just passing through - if you know what I mean...
Before anyone asks, I'm keeping with the 'cyclone' as it doesn't upset my stomach like others do.
My goal is building lean muscle mass with a 4 day body split plus cardio plus 1x '300' style workout per week.
Thanks.
Currently I take a creatine & protein mix (cyclone) first thing in the morning about 45min before the gym. I then have a recovery protein mix within 60min of leaving the gym. Normal diet is healthy through the day with protein bias.
My question is should I move the morning pre-workout shake to just before bed? I've been reliably informed that if you are going to take a protein shake before or after the gym it's better to take it before? I do both to fuel and then recover. Would refueling the previous evening work just as well? I'm asking as maybe the 2 shakes in a relatively short time are hitting max protein intake and actually just passing through - if you know what I mean...
Before anyone asks, I'm keeping with the 'cyclone' as it doesn't upset my stomach like others do.
My goal is building lean muscle mass with a 4 day body split plus cardio plus 1x '300' style workout per week.
Thanks.
Generally at night it's better to take a slow release protein like Casein, works for longer when your body really needs it while you sleep.
I personally (by no means an expert) take Casein in the morning with milk, whey with some casien in the evening straight after a workout and another Casien with milk just before bed. I find I recover quickly and my gains are good considering the rest of my diet is a bit ropey.
I personally (by no means an expert) take Casein in the morning with milk, whey with some casien in the evening straight after a workout and another Casien with milk just before bed. I find I recover quickly and my gains are good considering the rest of my diet is a bit ropey.
The science behind this is often difficult to decipher, so routines that are convenient and can be maintained with minimum of hassle (read stress!) are often, on balance, the best. As long as you are training hard, recuperating adequately between workouts and eating a healthy balanced diet, then you should be fine. It's the uber athletes, whose living depends upon performance, that try to micro manage things like this in an attempt to gain an advantage over a rival. The truth is, endeavour and genetics rule the day, not what time you have a snack! Stay Hungry!
Try here for some facts on protein;
http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-religion-of-...
http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-religion-of-...
the article said:
The Fast vs. Slow Protein Craze..
The use of fasted subjects in nutrition studies illustrates how researchers can end up with results that may not apply well to the real world. As the name implies, the study subjects are a group of people who have not eaten for an extended period of time. In many cases, they haven’t eaten for 8 – 10 hours or more, which of course does not reflect how the average person eats, at let alone how the average athlete eats—especially bodybuilders looking to add muscle mass.
Enter stage right, the “fast vs. slow” protein craze. The study that got this craze rolling was called “Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion” and was responsible for causing a resurgence of interest in casein. The basic premise of this much-touted study was that the speed of absorption of dietary amino acids (from ingested proteins) varies according to the type of dietary protein a person eats.
The researchers wanted to see if the type of protein eaten would affect postprandial (e.g., after a meal) protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test the hypothesis, they fed casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP) to a group of healthy adults, a single meal of casein (CAS) or whey WP following an overnight fast (10 h). Using this specific study design, they found:
•WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids.
•CAS induced a prolonged plateau of a moderate increase in amino acids (hyperaminoacidemia)
•Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion.
•Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal.
The basic non-science summary is: the study found that CAS was good at preventing protein breakdown (proteolysis), but was not so good for increasing protein synthesis. WP had basically the opposite effects: it increased protein synthesis but didn’t prevent protein breakdown. The problem is that they were using fasted subjects for a single meal. ***
Keep that in mind as we move along here…
So far so good right? So what can we conclude from this study and how useful are the results? Like so many studies, the results were interesting—and of little use to people in the real world. Do these results hold up under more “real world” conditions where people are eating every few hours and/or mixing the proteins with other macronutrients (i.e., carbs and fats)? The answer is probably not, which is exactly what the researchers found when they attempted to mimic a more realistic eating pattern of multiple meals and or the addition of other macronutrients. The follow up study was called “The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.” Four groups of five to six healthy young men received:
• a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS).
• a single meal of free amino acids mimicking the composition of casein (AA).
• a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP).
• repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate of casein (i.e., reflecting how people really eat).
So what did they find? In a nut shell, giving people multiple doses of whey—which more closely mimics how people really eat-—had basically the same effects as a single dose of casein, and mixing either with fats and proteins pretty much nullified any big differences between the two proteins.
Even that’s not the end of the story, however, as multiple follow up studies done by the same group and others found these effects could also be different in older versus younger people and male versus female! How messed up is that?! So how much press did these follow up studies get? Little or none, as I recall.
Now, a later study did attempt to examine the actual net amino acid uptake after resistance training with whey vs. casein, and found both proteins had essentially the same effects on net muscle protein synthesis after exercise despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
Does that put to rest the issue or debate of one protein vs. the other post-workout? No, as there are yet more conflicting studies out there and my bet is still on whey as the superior post-workout protein, but it’s important to realize the answer is far from established at this time.
Got Milk?
Milk: nature’s original MRP. Despite all the fancy proteins out there all claiming to be the next step in the evolution of proteins that “will blast you past your plateaus in the gym,” good old milk seems to be competing—and winning—against some “high tech” products on the market. We have various studies finding increased protein synthesis and other positive effects when a purified protein supplement (e.g., whey, soy, casein, etc.) ingested right after or before a workout—usually in conjunction with carbohydrates—but what about good old milk, a “real” food?
One recent study found good old milk to be an effective post-workout drink that increased net muscle protein synthesis after resistance training. Yet another recent study compared 2 cups of skim milk as a post workout drink compared to a soy drink and a “sports drink.”
In this study, the milk and soy drinks were matched for basic macronutrient ratios and calories and all three were matched for total calories. 56 male volunteers were split into three groups, with all put on a resistance training program for 12 weeks. The volunteers were then randomly assigned one of the three drinks to consume as a post workout drink and again one hour after the workouts.
Although no major differences were found in strength between the 3 groups, the group getting the milk had the greatest increase in muscle mass (via increases in Type I and II fibers) with researchers concluding
“…chronic postexercise consumption of milk promotes greater hypertrophy during the early stages of resistance training in novice weightlifters when compared with isoenergetic soy or carbohydrate consumption.”
But it gets better: how about our favorite childhood drink, chocolate milk? How about chocolate milk vs. two commercial energy/fluid replacement drinks, such as Gatorade and Endurox R4?
One recent study—albeit a small one—found chocolate milk as effective as Gatorade, and more effective than Endurox, as a recovery drink for trained cyclists between exhaustive bouts of endurance exercise.
Now is this a condemnation of sports drinks and an endorsement for milk/chocolate milk as the last word on post-workout drinks? Not at all: remember those essential questions I mentioned above? You have to look at such a study in context—in other words, at the experimental design and how that applies to the “real world.” The subjects fasted for 10 – 12 h prior to the chocolate milk experiment, and these drinks were the only food these guys had for 14 – 16 hours. The results may have been quite different had they been following their normal eating patterns.
They also measured effects on endurance vs.—say—strength or increased protein synthesis, etc.
So, in the context of this particular study design, look at it this way: chocolate milk has casein (a “slow” protein), and whey (a “fast” protein) as well as calcium, some vitamins and a bunch of carbohydrates—so it makes a pretty good, cheap MRP, if that’s all you are going to get all day long. It’s not a half-bad post-workout drink either. It’s not the best MRP—or post workout drink—I could design, but it’s cheap and easy to find. The reality is that there are some inexpensive foods out there can be used, and most of your old school bodybuilders and strong men used milk as the original post workout drink/MRP.
The study that looked at milk vs. soy and sports drink, was done in novice weight lifters, so that too needs to be taken into consideration. Regardless, milk, in particular chocolate milk, should make a perfectly acceptable and inexpensive post workout drink and people who think it’s too “old school” or not “high tech” enough to be if any use are clearly misinformed and the victim of marketing.
Now the study we need to see that does not exist, of course, is milk or chocolate milk vs. a well thought out post-workout drink of—say—whey and maltodextrin (high GI carb source), in experienced weight lifters who are not fasted—but don’t hold your breath on that one. Studies like that get expensive quickly and also pose practical issues. For example, if you wanted to match the protein content of—say—2 scoops of whey isolate to chocolate milk (so the groups were getting an equivalent amount of protein), the subjects would need to drink a large volume of milk (remember, milk is mostly water).
My hunch is that a correctly designed post-workout drink would be superior to chocolate milk, but it would be nice to see the two compared, no?
There's tons of other really useful facts on that site too.The use of fasted subjects in nutrition studies illustrates how researchers can end up with results that may not apply well to the real world. As the name implies, the study subjects are a group of people who have not eaten for an extended period of time. In many cases, they haven’t eaten for 8 – 10 hours or more, which of course does not reflect how the average person eats, at let alone how the average athlete eats—especially bodybuilders looking to add muscle mass.
Enter stage right, the “fast vs. slow” protein craze. The study that got this craze rolling was called “Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion” and was responsible for causing a resurgence of interest in casein. The basic premise of this much-touted study was that the speed of absorption of dietary amino acids (from ingested proteins) varies according to the type of dietary protein a person eats.
The researchers wanted to see if the type of protein eaten would affect postprandial (e.g., after a meal) protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test the hypothesis, they fed casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP) to a group of healthy adults, a single meal of casein (CAS) or whey WP following an overnight fast (10 h). Using this specific study design, they found:
•WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids.
•CAS induced a prolonged plateau of a moderate increase in amino acids (hyperaminoacidemia)
•Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion.
•Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal.
The basic non-science summary is: the study found that CAS was good at preventing protein breakdown (proteolysis), but was not so good for increasing protein synthesis. WP had basically the opposite effects: it increased protein synthesis but didn’t prevent protein breakdown. The problem is that they were using fasted subjects for a single meal. ***
Keep that in mind as we move along here…
So far so good right? So what can we conclude from this study and how useful are the results? Like so many studies, the results were interesting—and of little use to people in the real world. Do these results hold up under more “real world” conditions where people are eating every few hours and/or mixing the proteins with other macronutrients (i.e., carbs and fats)? The answer is probably not, which is exactly what the researchers found when they attempted to mimic a more realistic eating pattern of multiple meals and or the addition of other macronutrients. The follow up study was called “The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.” Four groups of five to six healthy young men received:
• a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS).
• a single meal of free amino acids mimicking the composition of casein (AA).
• a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP).
• repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate of casein (i.e., reflecting how people really eat).
So what did they find? In a nut shell, giving people multiple doses of whey—which more closely mimics how people really eat-—had basically the same effects as a single dose of casein, and mixing either with fats and proteins pretty much nullified any big differences between the two proteins.
Even that’s not the end of the story, however, as multiple follow up studies done by the same group and others found these effects could also be different in older versus younger people and male versus female! How messed up is that?! So how much press did these follow up studies get? Little or none, as I recall.
Now, a later study did attempt to examine the actual net amino acid uptake after resistance training with whey vs. casein, and found both proteins had essentially the same effects on net muscle protein synthesis after exercise despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
Does that put to rest the issue or debate of one protein vs. the other post-workout? No, as there are yet more conflicting studies out there and my bet is still on whey as the superior post-workout protein, but it’s important to realize the answer is far from established at this time.
Got Milk?
Milk: nature’s original MRP. Despite all the fancy proteins out there all claiming to be the next step in the evolution of proteins that “will blast you past your plateaus in the gym,” good old milk seems to be competing—and winning—against some “high tech” products on the market. We have various studies finding increased protein synthesis and other positive effects when a purified protein supplement (e.g., whey, soy, casein, etc.) ingested right after or before a workout—usually in conjunction with carbohydrates—but what about good old milk, a “real” food?
One recent study found good old milk to be an effective post-workout drink that increased net muscle protein synthesis after resistance training. Yet another recent study compared 2 cups of skim milk as a post workout drink compared to a soy drink and a “sports drink.”
In this study, the milk and soy drinks were matched for basic macronutrient ratios and calories and all three were matched for total calories. 56 male volunteers were split into three groups, with all put on a resistance training program for 12 weeks. The volunteers were then randomly assigned one of the three drinks to consume as a post workout drink and again one hour after the workouts.
Although no major differences were found in strength between the 3 groups, the group getting the milk had the greatest increase in muscle mass (via increases in Type I and II fibers) with researchers concluding
“…chronic postexercise consumption of milk promotes greater hypertrophy during the early stages of resistance training in novice weightlifters when compared with isoenergetic soy or carbohydrate consumption.”
But it gets better: how about our favorite childhood drink, chocolate milk? How about chocolate milk vs. two commercial energy/fluid replacement drinks, such as Gatorade and Endurox R4?
One recent study—albeit a small one—found chocolate milk as effective as Gatorade, and more effective than Endurox, as a recovery drink for trained cyclists between exhaustive bouts of endurance exercise.
Now is this a condemnation of sports drinks and an endorsement for milk/chocolate milk as the last word on post-workout drinks? Not at all: remember those essential questions I mentioned above? You have to look at such a study in context—in other words, at the experimental design and how that applies to the “real world.” The subjects fasted for 10 – 12 h prior to the chocolate milk experiment, and these drinks were the only food these guys had for 14 – 16 hours. The results may have been quite different had they been following their normal eating patterns.
They also measured effects on endurance vs.—say—strength or increased protein synthesis, etc.
So, in the context of this particular study design, look at it this way: chocolate milk has casein (a “slow” protein), and whey (a “fast” protein) as well as calcium, some vitamins and a bunch of carbohydrates—so it makes a pretty good, cheap MRP, if that’s all you are going to get all day long. It’s not a half-bad post-workout drink either. It’s not the best MRP—or post workout drink—I could design, but it’s cheap and easy to find. The reality is that there are some inexpensive foods out there can be used, and most of your old school bodybuilders and strong men used milk as the original post workout drink/MRP.
The study that looked at milk vs. soy and sports drink, was done in novice weight lifters, so that too needs to be taken into consideration. Regardless, milk, in particular chocolate milk, should make a perfectly acceptable and inexpensive post workout drink and people who think it’s too “old school” or not “high tech” enough to be if any use are clearly misinformed and the victim of marketing.
Now the study we need to see that does not exist, of course, is milk or chocolate milk vs. a well thought out post-workout drink of—say—whey and maltodextrin (high GI carb source), in experienced weight lifters who are not fasted—but don’t hold your breath on that one. Studies like that get expensive quickly and also pose practical issues. For example, if you wanted to match the protein content of—say—2 scoops of whey isolate to chocolate milk (so the groups were getting an equivalent amount of protein), the subjects would need to drink a large volume of milk (remember, milk is mostly water).
My hunch is that a correctly designed post-workout drink would be superior to chocolate milk, but it would be nice to see the two compared, no?
Edited by Ordinary_Chap on Wednesday 12th January 18:48
Personally I only take protein straight after my work out; though the common wisdom seems to be whey after training then a casein before bed...
On a side note... What do people make of the protein value of yoghurt. Ive been eating it in the morning (plain low fat stuff) and it has around 8g of protein per 100g, which is pretty good... I was wondering though if the process of yoghurt making removes any proteins or is it, like most dairy, a pretty good casein?
On a side note... What do people make of the protein value of yoghurt. Ive been eating it in the morning (plain low fat stuff) and it has around 8g of protein per 100g, which is pretty good... I was wondering though if the process of yoghurt making removes any proteins or is it, like most dairy, a pretty good casein?
There is no point in having protein just before a workout as it will not be digested for some time and will not help your workout.
If you need something,have complex carbs.
Protein after workout/before bed is the most beneficial.Muscles repair whilst the body is asleep,so this is when you need protein in your system.
If you need something,have complex carbs.
Protein after workout/before bed is the most beneficial.Muscles repair whilst the body is asleep,so this is when you need protein in your system.
whey protein is almost digested instantly if you take it with water Casein/soay take longer. Cylcone is very pricey for something that isnt that scientifiic. I would take a slow Release protein after a work out for longer nitrogen supply such as Pro-10.coms Time release protein http://www.pro-10.com/products/protein-supplements... Well worth it!
Defcon5 said:
Jimibeee said:
whey protein is almost digested instantly
Would it be est to take it with water post workout then? I currently have it with skimmed milkThere are many enzymes, juices and processes involved in protein breakdown. Much less the actual catabolism involved in protien breakdown, it takes time for all your gastric juices to be synthesized/released, saturated, activated and processed. Alternatively know as digestion. Magically instant absorbtion is physically impossible, unless you injected amino acids directly into your bloodstream. (no, don't try it!)
(these are estimates, but are "by-the-book")
Whey is absorbed at a rate of 4-10g per hour.
Caesin at a rate of about 6 per hour.
Egg at 3g per hour.
The only form of protein that could be absorbed almost instantly is if you swallow amino acids that have already been broken down, which you can get... However, in order to use protien you need a positive Nitrogen balance and you only get this from breaking down other proteins... Nitrogen balance is what determines protein synthesis (positive - anabolism) and protein breakdown (negative - catabolism).
If N balance is the most important factor of all, the thing you should be doing it eating protein as part of a regular balanced diet.
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