Geting a job offer and then putting forward a counter...
Discussion
A younger family member got a job offer and reviewed it fully.
There were 'ups' and 'downs' on various elements of it so she did some analysis and wanted to engage the offering company in a mild negotiation. She shared her analaysis and justifications in a transparent way and put forward what she would like to see revised in the offer...
Now I said I thought this was 100% OK. Keep it fact based, keep the language collaborative etc, but you don't get if you don't ask. Plus, it's a commercial job and negotiating it was she does / will do. Plus the worse they can say is "no thanks, we will stick to our offer as full and final". She can then make a decision based on that.
She's just called me to chat it though. The offering company have come back to her and given her a bit of an ear full, saying that they are offended she has asked for more and that it has been 'escalated'. Basically made the whole thing feel far from comfortable. She still want's the job but it now doesn't 'feel right', as if she would start on the 'back foot' sort of thing..
Not sure what to say to her really except sit tight to see what they come back with, if anything, and take it from there.
Thoughts?
Is this bad form?
In my firm it's the norm if I'm honest. It's a pretty rationale conversation, either give them more or don't and let them decide from there.
There were 'ups' and 'downs' on various elements of it so she did some analysis and wanted to engage the offering company in a mild negotiation. She shared her analaysis and justifications in a transparent way and put forward what she would like to see revised in the offer...
Now I said I thought this was 100% OK. Keep it fact based, keep the language collaborative etc, but you don't get if you don't ask. Plus, it's a commercial job and negotiating it was she does / will do. Plus the worse they can say is "no thanks, we will stick to our offer as full and final". She can then make a decision based on that.
She's just called me to chat it though. The offering company have come back to her and given her a bit of an ear full, saying that they are offended she has asked for more and that it has been 'escalated'. Basically made the whole thing feel far from comfortable. She still want's the job but it now doesn't 'feel right', as if she would start on the 'back foot' sort of thing..
Not sure what to say to her really except sit tight to see what they come back with, if anything, and take it from there.
Thoughts?
Is this bad form?
In my firm it's the norm if I'm honest. It's a pretty rationale conversation, either give them more or don't and let them decide from there.
Personally I can't see that she's done anything too wrong from what you described.
Assuming she is already gainfully employed why bother moving if the benefits are not clearly tangible.
If the 'new' company find this has upset them they can always withdraw the offer. If she decides thier attitude to her request is off putting she can turn them down.
Historically I've never negotiated rates etc..., I've tended to clarify the rate before going to interview for a new contract, if the rate is fine then I interview and take the role if offered. I generally wouldn't try to change the rate after being offered.
But then I've been contracting for 20 years and that's the way I roll (wanted to use that expression for ages
)
Only time I've quibbled over rates was when this last contract was renewed, I found out how much the agent was skimming and asked for a bigger cut of that. They had no choice really
The 'new' company sound like they're a bit pissed because they thought they had selected her based on their advertised conditions and are surprised by her coming back to negotiate. Maybe they think she's wasting their time. Either way.. she shouldn't move unless she's happy!
Assuming she is already gainfully employed why bother moving if the benefits are not clearly tangible.
If the 'new' company find this has upset them they can always withdraw the offer. If she decides thier attitude to her request is off putting she can turn them down.
Historically I've never negotiated rates etc..., I've tended to clarify the rate before going to interview for a new contract, if the rate is fine then I interview and take the role if offered. I generally wouldn't try to change the rate after being offered.
But then I've been contracting for 20 years and that's the way I roll (wanted to use that expression for ages
)Only time I've quibbled over rates was when this last contract was renewed, I found out how much the agent was skimming and asked for a bigger cut of that. They had no choice really
The 'new' company sound like they're a bit pissed because they thought they had selected her based on their advertised conditions and are surprised by her coming back to negotiate. Maybe they think she's wasting their time. Either way.. she shouldn't move unless she's happy!
Personally speaking - as an employer - I think I might too take the same view as the company here.
Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
It depends what's been said prior to the offer.
For instance, if she has been put forward at £30k, been offered £35k and is now asking for £40k, then I could see how said firm would be irritated.
However, if she's gone in, either without a number, or they've offered her below what she's been asking for, then negotiation is fine. In this case, I would be very wary of the firm.
I've never interviewed anybody without knowing their salary expectations. Similarly I've never gone for a position without both knowing the range of the role, and the employer knowing my current salary and my salary requirements.
For instance, if she has been put forward at £30k, been offered £35k and is now asking for £40k, then I could see how said firm would be irritated.
However, if she's gone in, either without a number, or they've offered her below what she's been asking for, then negotiation is fine. In this case, I would be very wary of the firm.
I've never interviewed anybody without knowing their salary expectations. Similarly I've never gone for a position without both knowing the range of the role, and the employer knowing my current salary and my salary requirements.
What kind of things was she asking about? If they're things like holidays, pension, allowances etc which are likely to be company wide policies, then they're not going to change those.
Pay, bonus etc, I've always negotiated.
I thoink she right to query it - if she doesn't sort it out up front then it's not going to change once she joins the company.
Pay, bonus etc, I've always negotiated.
I thoink she right to query it - if she doesn't sort it out up front then it's not going to change once she joins the company.
Depends how the job was advertised. IME ads often just say "competitive salary + benefits" or some wide pay band which does not make it clear, so you do not really know what's on offer until the interview. I have just changed jobs. I informed them of the salary I was seeking in my application. I was subsequently offered the role, but for less. I told them I could not accept that offer and explained why I thought I was worth more. They said it would be difficult to offer me any more. Three days later I received a call offering me slightly more then I had asked for; I think they realised it is difficult to get experienced, well qualified people in my field so had to pay the price. I am sure she knows if her request is reasonable. The escalation comment may just mean it needs to be approved at a higher level.
OK, for clarity:
Salary / bonus / car was discussed up front and emailed to her in a skeleton (non-contractual) framework. Regarding mutual expectations of these elements, all of this was aligned at first interview stage. No issue and the offer came good.
But she wanted the full offer in order to review it, as she had not had sight of it yet and was not provided with details when she asked the questions (she works for a global Corp, going to a global Corp).
Her current company are good with benefits beyond the discussed core stuff above, such as shares, pension contributions, healthcare etc.
When she reviewed the full corporate pack from the new company were not so good. And due to timings of leaving / joining, there would be a period of time she would not be eligible for a bonus in either company.
So she mapped it all out, and showed them in monetary terms where she thought there were gaps. She knows that she won't be able to change their corporate benefits, so suggests a specific increase in the basic salary to cover it. She also asked for a realistic sign-on bonus to cover the period she would not be eligible at either firm.
The mentally was "show them what you see and ask if they can help you. Give them a proposal to work with, just accept that they may decline to increase anything. Once you hear back from them, make a decision with the facts". I'm not sure if my advise has been that good really...
Salary / bonus / car was discussed up front and emailed to her in a skeleton (non-contractual) framework. Regarding mutual expectations of these elements, all of this was aligned at first interview stage. No issue and the offer came good.
But she wanted the full offer in order to review it, as she had not had sight of it yet and was not provided with details when she asked the questions (she works for a global Corp, going to a global Corp).
Her current company are good with benefits beyond the discussed core stuff above, such as shares, pension contributions, healthcare etc.
When she reviewed the full corporate pack from the new company were not so good. And due to timings of leaving / joining, there would be a period of time she would not be eligible for a bonus in either company.
So she mapped it all out, and showed them in monetary terms where she thought there were gaps. She knows that she won't be able to change their corporate benefits, so suggests a specific increase in the basic salary to cover it. She also asked for a realistic sign-on bonus to cover the period she would not be eligible at either firm.
The mentally was "show them what you see and ask if they can help you. Give them a proposal to work with, just accept that they may decline to increase anything. Once you hear back from them, make a decision with the facts". I'm not sure if my advise has been that good really...
I worked my way up in a global corp and the higher I got the more astonished I became at the things that were possible, despite what had appeared to be very tight rules.
However unless she's a fairly unique applicant and she's going to a pretty senior position (in which case it's unlikely she'd have been consulting with you) then they aren't going to do anything special.
However unless she's a fairly unique applicant and she's going to a pretty senior position (in which case it's unlikely she'd have been consulting with you) then they aren't going to do anything special.
StevieBee said:
Personally speaking - as an employer - I think I might too take the same view as the company here.
Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. From experience nothing is ever set in stone and all things are open to negotiation (for the right candidate).Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I realise you're an employer but there really isn't any point waiting for 3 months to start negotiating what should be done at the outset. You set your stall out from day one. If an employer isn't willing then you go somewhere else.
Fatman2 said:
StevieBee said:
Personally speaking - as an employer - I think I might too take the same view as the company here.
Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. From experience nothing is ever set in stone and all things are open to negotiation (for the right candidate).Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I realise you're an employer but there really isn't any point waiting for 3 months to start negotiating what should be done at the outset. You set your stall out from day one. If an employer isn't willing then you go somewhere else.
If we need somebody, we determine the requirements, establish the salary band and package and publish both in the job ad' and the job description, then we would reasonably expect someone to judge whether the job is right for them before they apply and before wasting theirs and our time.
I'd be quite happy if someone called to say that they were interested in applying but "wondered if the salary was negotiable" before applying. This would allow us to either say no or yes depending on why they felt the salary required negotiation. Either way, both parties establish the boundaries before anyone gets into the interview / offer process.
The only exception to this is if the salary is published as being negotiable from the outset.
Once the three month probation period has passed, both parties are in a better position to judge the salary and package.
It's never happened to me but should a candidate we've offered a job to come back and start asking for more money than we offered before starting, that offer would be promptly withdrawn as it does not bode well for a good future relationship.
StevieBee said:
It's never happened to me but should a candidate we've offered a job to come back and start asking for more money than we offered before starting, that offer would be promptly withdrawn as it does not bode well for a good future relationship.
It's not about the money itself, it's all the little fringe benefits that are lacking.I made that mistake in my second job move. Seems stupid now, but it never occured to me that things like daily allowance, family healthcare, share options etc wouldn't be standard in the industry (I was moving to the same job but at a different company). They also required a significant personal contribution for the company car whereas previously it had been totally free. Going back a few years, these things had significant value.
In the last six months I have made more than 40 Job offers.
People want to negotiate, I listen to the point of view, look at if we are being 'fair' outline what the policy is, look at the circumstances and what we might be prepared to go to.
We make fair offers, never low ball and are always open to discuss.
However if it transpires it is ONLY about the money and the person presents themselves as greedy we tend to steer clear or hold our position.
It is not the message here that was wrong, it was probably the style of communicating it.
Just my thoughts on it and apologies if this has already been said and I've missed it:
It's certainly not bad form (don't ask don't get/ who knows when the next opportunity for review will be?) but did she put forward why SHE would be worth more in the the role?
Depending on the organisation size/ type etc. the package will probably have been reviewed in line with the job description - if she can demonstrate that she would bring relevant skills/ experience to the role beyond the stated requirements than I can't see how anyone could have a problem with her looking for an upgraded package - surely it's better to be upfront about it than to take a job and bugger off within a few months because someone else was prepare to offer up a few more in k/ benefits!
It's certainly not bad form (don't ask don't get/ who knows when the next opportunity for review will be?) but did she put forward why SHE would be worth more in the the role?
Depending on the organisation size/ type etc. the package will probably have been reviewed in line with the job description - if she can demonstrate that she would bring relevant skills/ experience to the role beyond the stated requirements than I can't see how anyone could have a problem with her looking for an upgraded package - surely it's better to be upfront about it than to take a job and bugger off within a few months because someone else was prepare to offer up a few more in k/ benefits!
Waiting till the end of the probation to discuss any additional pay or conditions is a s
tty move, you've left a secure job and are 4/7/13 months down the line finding the package isn't what you expected at the start. Loads of jobs are advertised as £30-40k dependant on skills or £neg, etc prior to getting the contract and handing in your notice it is reasonable to confirm the package is acceptable.
tty move, you've left a secure job and are 4/7/13 months down the line finding the package isn't what you expected at the start. Loads of jobs are advertised as £30-40k dependant on skills or £neg, etc prior to getting the contract and handing in your notice it is reasonable to confirm the package is acceptable.Deva Link said:
StevieBee said:
It's never happened to me but should a candidate we've offered a job to come back and start asking for more money than we offered before starting, that offer would be promptly withdrawn as it does not bode well for a good future relationship.
It's not about the money itself, it's all the little fringe benefits that are lacking.I made that mistake in my second job move. Seems stupid now, but it never occured to me that things like daily allowance, family healthcare, share options etc wouldn't be standard in the industry (I was moving to the same job but at a different company). They also required a significant personal contribution for the company car whereas previously it had been totally free. Going back a few years, these things had significant value.
StevieBee said:
Fatman2 said:
StevieBee said:
Personally speaking - as an employer - I think I might too take the same view as the company here.
Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. From experience nothing is ever set in stone and all things are open to negotiation (for the right candidate).Assuming the job description was well specified and clear with any queries covered at interview, the applicant will have had ample opportunity to assess whether the package was right them then.
The time to enter into these sorts of negotiations is at the end of the 3 month probation period once both parties are happy with one another.
If she's not happy with the offer, don't take the job.
I realise you're an employer but there really isn't any point waiting for 3 months to start negotiating what should be done at the outset. You set your stall out from day one. If an employer isn't willing then you go somewhere else.
If we need somebody, we determine the requirements, establish the salary band and package and publish both in the job ad' and the job description, then we would reasonably expect someone to judge whether the job is right for them before they apply and before wasting theirs and our time.
I'd be quite happy if someone called to say that they were interested in applying but "wondered if the salary was negotiable" before applying. This would allow us to either say no or yes depending on why they felt the salary required negotiation. Either way, both parties establish the boundaries before anyone gets into the interview / offer process.
The only exception to this is if the salary is published as being negotiable from the outset.
Once the three month probation period has passed, both parties are in a better position to judge the salary and package.
It's never happened to me but should a candidate we've offered a job to come back and start asking for more money than we offered before starting, that offer would be promptly withdrawn as it does not bode well for a good future relationship.
You're right. I'm not an employer but from conversations with recruiters at work most job specs in my industry (aerospace) are normally only guidelines. In the same way you wouldn't always expect a prospective employee to tick absolutely every box, neither can you expect what you offer to be wholly suitable for everyone. It's about finding some common ground that suits both parties.
Maybe your company is different but most attempt to pay as little as possible (in the interests of saving money). If I'd just taken the first offer on my current contract I'd be about £8k worse off so it definitely pays to negotiate (pardon the pun).
Fatman2 said:
Maybe it's different with different industries
Nail on the head, mate!Also different for different levels of job.
I'm a (part) owner / manager. Medium sized business and don't have the time to faff around on 11th hour negotiations on what for the most part have been fairly straight forward jobs.
StevieBee said:
Fatman2 said:
Maybe it's different with different industries
Most of this has been discussed above, but to my mind it's a seniority thing. At lower levels, the roles people occupy tend to be more similar so benefit packages have to be more uniform.At senior levels there is usually much more scope to tailor the job to an individual's skills and also less ability for employees for to have a direct comparison with other similar grades meaning that packages can be more bespoke.
From an individual's perspective you also need to know whether you are prepared to walk away if your request is not met i.e. are you asking for X because that is the minimum you need before you will accept the job or are you just hoping to get more, but would be happy to 'meet in the middle' or even accept the original offer.
Even if you have your request accepted, you then may have to deal with increased expectations if you take the new role.
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