Possible rewiring needed
Discussion
Hi there,
Thought I would draw on the PH knowledge base once again
I am just about to get the keys to my first flat 
The building that the flat is in is 103 years old, and was converted from a hotel into flats about 60 years ago.
It is a good size 2 bedroom flat, large living room, and a third room leading off one of the bedrooms.
The wiring that is in place I would guess is about 20 years old, the fusebox looks quite modern and the plug sockets are the standard white items, along with the light switches.
The fuse box and meter are mounted on a wall, above a false ceiling in the hall and are rather inaccessible.
There are no where near enough plug sockets in each room, the previous owners had obviously found this as well, as there are extension cables all over the place, tacked to the top of skirting boards, round door frames etc.
So I would like to:
A. Add more plug sockets to each room, probably an average of 3 more double plugs in each room, not including kitchen.
B. Move the fuse box and meter about 8 meters further into the house, to the cupboard at the end of the hallway.
So the questions are:
1. How much roughly would it cost just to add plug sockets?
2. Is it possible to move the fuse box and meter without HUGE costs?
3. If I did move the fusebox and meter would I need a total rewire?
4. Should I get a total rewire anyway?
Cheers
Thought I would draw on the PH knowledge base once again
I am just about to get the keys to my first flat The building that the flat is in is 103 years old, and was converted from a hotel into flats about 60 years ago. It is a good size 2 bedroom flat, large living room, and a third room leading off one of the bedrooms.
The wiring that is in place I would guess is about 20 years old, the fusebox looks quite modern and the plug sockets are the standard white items, along with the light switches.
The fuse box and meter are mounted on a wall, above a false ceiling in the hall and are rather inaccessible.
There are no where near enough plug sockets in each room, the previous owners had obviously found this as well, as there are extension cables all over the place, tacked to the top of skirting boards, round door frames etc.
So I would like to:
A. Add more plug sockets to each room, probably an average of 3 more double plugs in each room, not including kitchen.
B. Move the fuse box and meter about 8 meters further into the house, to the cupboard at the end of the hallway.
So the questions are:
1. How much roughly would it cost just to add plug sockets?
2. Is it possible to move the fuse box and meter without HUGE costs?
3. If I did move the fusebox and meter would I need a total rewire?
4. Should I get a total rewire anyway?
Cheers
Moving a meter is a ball ache.
As good as general advice on the Forum is it can't be definative as there maybe something stupidly unique about a property that will double the price of what would be considered a straight forward job.
All of what you suggest will need to be done in compliance with the Building Regs.
I'd suggest that you arrange to meet a couple of qualified sparks (they'll need to be a 'Domestic Installer') at the property and discuss your needs. At the same time ask them about notifying and complying with the Building Regs.
Any competant sparks will be able to answer these questions relevant to your flat.
Generally speaking adding sockets is easy and straight forward. If you want to move the Consumer Unit (fusebox) then you'll need to fit a '17th Edition' Consumer Unit and you'll be looking at £500 plus just for that.
Where is the flat?
As good as general advice on the Forum is it can't be definative as there maybe something stupidly unique about a property that will double the price of what would be considered a straight forward job.
All of what you suggest will need to be done in compliance with the Building Regs.
I'd suggest that you arrange to meet a couple of qualified sparks (they'll need to be a 'Domestic Installer') at the property and discuss your needs. At the same time ask them about notifying and complying with the Building Regs.
Any competant sparks will be able to answer these questions relevant to your flat.
Generally speaking adding sockets is easy and straight forward. If you want to move the Consumer Unit (fusebox) then you'll need to fit a '17th Edition' Consumer Unit and you'll be looking at £500 plus just for that.
Where is the flat?
The flat is between Aberdeen and Dundee.
It looks like the electric company would have to turn off the entire buildings supply of electricity to move the meter! I think that that alone kills the idea of moving the meter and breaker box
So just looking to add a load of sockets in each room.
Does anyone have any idea how much this should cost? Hopefully not into the 1000s!
Cheers
It looks like the electric company would have to turn off the entire buildings supply of electricity to move the meter! I think that that alone kills the idea of moving the meter and breaker box
So just looking to add a load of sockets in each room.
Does anyone have any idea how much this should cost? Hopefully not into the 1000s!
Cheers
Alfachick said:
The flat is between Aberdeen and Dundee.
It looks like the electric company would have to turn off the entire buildings supply of electricity to move the meter! I think that that alone kills the idea of moving the meter and breaker box
So just looking to add a load of sockets in each room.
Does anyone have any idea how much this should cost? Hopefully not into the 1000s!
Cheers
Shouldn't be that expensive - you can do a lot of it yourself if you wanted to (fitting the plug boxes and running the wire yourself and then get a sparky in to actually do all the connecting so it can be signed off. It would only take him an hour or so to do them all.It looks like the electric company would have to turn off the entire buildings supply of electricity to move the meter! I think that that alone kills the idea of moving the meter and breaker box
So just looking to add a load of sockets in each room.
Does anyone have any idea how much this should cost? Hopefully not into the 1000s!
Cheers
It may be worth getting one in to see if you can chain them off of an existing plug socket or whether you would need to go back to the main ring. If its just a case of chaining off then you could probably get it all doen for under £200 all in.
As with everything that is attached to building in general, it's not the cost per say of the Sparks works but the associated costs of replastering and re-decing if you go down the route of burying the cables rather than surface fix them in the hideous surface mounted conduit.
Could become pricey, sorry not the answer you wanted.
Could become pricey, sorry not the answer you wanted.
I've done a whole house rewire. I needed to do it and I needed a lot of additional circuits in the house so it was the only solution.
It is absolutely the last resort if you can at all avoid it.
Do not underestimate the amount of dust that is created chasing cables in to plaster walls.
Do not underestimate the costs of a skilled plasterer.
Do no underestimate the amount of redecorating involved.
It is absolutely the last resort if you can at all avoid it.
Do not underestimate the amount of dust that is created chasing cables in to plaster walls.
Do not underestimate the costs of a skilled plasterer.
Do no underestimate the amount of redecorating involved.
The whole flat needs redecorating anyway.
So I think plan of action so far is:
1. Strip wallpaper
2. Get sparky in to do plug sockets, chase cables into wall.
3. Tidy up after sparky
4. Decorate.
Sigh. This puts all my previous plans totally out the window. And looks like its going to be way more expensive than first thought. Such is life.
The killer part is that I don't even get home for another week!
So I think plan of action so far is:
1. Strip wallpaper
2. Get sparky in to do plug sockets, chase cables into wall.
3. Tidy up after sparky
4. Decorate.
Sigh. This puts all my previous plans totally out the window. And looks like its going to be way more expensive than first thought. Such is life.
The killer part is that I don't even get home for another week!
Alfachick said:
The whole flat needs redecorating anyway.
So I think plan of action so far is:
1. Strip wallpaper
2. Get sparky in to do plug sockets, chase cables into wall.
3. Tidy up after sparky
4. Decorate.
Sigh. This puts all my previous plans totally out the window. And looks like its going to be way more expensive than first thought. Such is life.
The killer part is that I don't even get home for another week!
Do the chasing yourself. Pointless paying a skilled bloke to chip away bits of plaster.So I think plan of action so far is:
1. Strip wallpaper
2. Get sparky in to do plug sockets, chase cables into wall.
3. Tidy up after sparky
4. Decorate.
Sigh. This puts all my previous plans totally out the window. And looks like its going to be way more expensive than first thought. Such is life.
The killer part is that I don't even get home for another week!
Use niceic to find a few local sparks to give you a quote. All you need is to tell them exactly where you want the extra sockets and prod them enough to determine the best way of routing cables from the existing ring to them. Two of my bedrooms have recently had sockets adding that are on the other wall of the airing cupboard to save chasing channels through wallpapered walls.
http://www.niceic.com/
I would say that electrically speakng, you have bought a basket case. There is no point in adding a few sockets here and there since the installation will require signing off due to Part P regs and the electrician is likely to find others areas which will fail that test. A proper electrician will probably advise to go for a full rewire (I would) and move the meter at the same time. In a flat, the wires are mostly buried in concrete floors and it will involve, as already stated, a lot of building work.
If this is a new flat and you are waiting to move in, I would suggest that this is the best time to do the work. You're better off doing it now rather than when you're settled although they can still reqire while you live in, they have to go room to room. Look a the best position for the various electrical points and do a room by room map. You should also consider adding other useful cables such as CCTV (RG59), beause it's cheap and also CAT5 network points as the same time. A fully cable-managed/networked house is becoming the way forward and it will be a big bonus when you come to sell the house not to mention the added benefits that this technology brings.
I would ballpark the costs for a one/two bedroom flat at anywhere between £2-3k but as you are in Scotland and I'm in London, you're labour prices should be a lot less. As stated, it's a messy job but an absolutely neccesity IMO, as 20 year old wiring will be shot and due for replacement.
If this is a new flat and you are waiting to move in, I would suggest that this is the best time to do the work. You're better off doing it now rather than when you're settled although they can still reqire while you live in, they have to go room to room. Look a the best position for the various electrical points and do a room by room map. You should also consider adding other useful cables such as CCTV (RG59), beause it's cheap and also CAT5 network points as the same time. A fully cable-managed/networked house is becoming the way forward and it will be a big bonus when you come to sell the house not to mention the added benefits that this technology brings.
I would ballpark the costs for a one/two bedroom flat at anywhere between £2-3k but as you are in Scotland and I'm in London, you're labour prices should be a lot less. As stated, it's a messy job but an absolutely neccesity IMO, as 20 year old wiring will be shot and due for replacement.
Lord Flathead said:
I would say that electrically speakng, you have bought a basket case. There is no point in adding a few sockets here and there since the installation will require signing off due to Part P regs and the electrician is likely to find others areas which will fail that test. A proper electrician will probably advise to go for a full rewire (I would) and move the meter at the same time. In a flat, the wires are mostly buried in concrete floors and it will involve, as already stated, a lot of building work.
If this is a new flat and you are waiting to move in, I would suggest that this is the best time to do the work. You're better off doing it now rather than when you're settled although they can still reqire while you live in, they have to go room to room. Look a the best position for the various electrical points and do a room by room map. You should also consider adding other useful cables such as CCTV (RG59), beause it's cheap and also CAT5 network points as the same time. A fully cable-managed/networked house is becoming the way forward and it will be a big bonus when you come to sell the house not to mention the added benefits that this technology brings.
I would ballpark the costs for a one/two bedroom flat at anywhere between £2-3k but as you are in Scotland and I'm in London, you're labour prices should be a lot less. As stated, it's a messy job but an absolutely neccesity IMO, as 20 year old wiring will be shot and due for replacement.
No doubt you have a lot more experience than me but would wiring installed in the 90's be due for replacement already??? If so and I have no reason to doubt you then has the materials changed significantly and there are plenty of houses from 30's to 70's still going strong If this is a new flat and you are waiting to move in, I would suggest that this is the best time to do the work. You're better off doing it now rather than when you're settled although they can still reqire while you live in, they have to go room to room. Look a the best position for the various electrical points and do a room by room map. You should also consider adding other useful cables such as CCTV (RG59), beause it's cheap and also CAT5 network points as the same time. A fully cable-managed/networked house is becoming the way forward and it will be a big bonus when you come to sell the house not to mention the added benefits that this technology brings.
I would ballpark the costs for a one/two bedroom flat at anywhere between £2-3k but as you are in Scotland and I'm in London, you're labour prices should be a lot less. As stated, it's a messy job but an absolutely neccesity IMO, as 20 year old wiring will be shot and due for replacement.
Lord Flathead said:
I would say that electrically speakng, you have bought a basket case. There is no point in adding a few sockets here and there since the installation will require signing off due to Part P regs and the electrician is likely to find others areas which will fail that test. A proper electrician will probably advise to go for a full rewire (I would) and move the meter at the same time. In a flat, the wires are mostly buried in concrete floors and it will involve, as already stated, a lot of building work.
I know that the flat has wooden floors throughout which means a little less mess re building works.It would be very nice to move the meter and circuit breaker board, as its a very ugly solution where they are at the moment, and also as previously stated quite inaccessible. Would it be possible to run the cables through the floor? I think this would be the sensible option as it would mean a lot of chasing in otherwise, round doors etc. Also I do not want to disturb the ceilings as they have lovely coving.
Lord Flathead said:
If this is a new flat and you are waiting to move in, I would suggest that this is the best time to do the work. You're better off doing it now rather than when you're settled although they can still reqire while you live in, they have to go room to room. Look a the best position for the various electrical points and do a room by room map. You should also consider adding other useful cables such as CCTV (RG59), beause it's cheap and also CAT5 network points as the same time. A fully cable-managed/networked house is becoming the way forward and it will be a big bonus when you come to sell the house not to mention the added benefits that this technology brings.
Yes waiting to move in, although it feels like I cant wait! The flat is in an old building though. Why would I need CCTV cables? I can almost understand the need for network cables but not really. Could you explain why it would be a big selling point please? Perhaps more research is needed on my part here as well.
Lord Flathead said:
I would ballpark the costs for a one/two bedroom flat at anywhere between £2-3k but as you are in Scotland and I'm in London, you're labour prices should be a lot less. As stated, it's a messy job but an absolutely neccesity IMO, as 20 year old wiring will be shot and due for replacement.
That much! How do you normally pay tradesmen? A bit upfront and then they send you an invoice for the completed work that you can pay a once the next paycheck has landed? I wont be able to pay for that with the money I have in the bank at the moment. Sigh. Although I can help out with the chasing in and stuff as I will be at home during the day for a month due to my job, would doing this help bring labour costs down?
Its all so complicated!
There is no way that 20 year old wiring needs replacing, (just because it is 20 years old).
If you are an electrician and advise people to have rewires if their installation is 20 years or older, and they go for it, people down South must be daft. If they do good luck with your business, you are on to a good thing.
My house was wired in the early 1970's and it is absoloutely fine. As a matter of fact I have not come across a job that has needed rewiring due to the pvc insulation degrading in the manner that older wiring systems such as tough rubber / VIR insulated cables did do.
If you are an electrician and advise people to have rewires if their installation is 20 years or older, and they go for it, people down South must be daft. If they do good luck with your business, you are on to a good thing.
My house was wired in the early 1970's and it is absoloutely fine. As a matter of fact I have not come across a job that has needed rewiring due to the pvc insulation degrading in the manner that older wiring systems such as tough rubber / VIR insulated cables did do.
Alfachick said:
Simpo Two said:
£500 for a fusebox? That seems insane.
When I googled them screwfix were selling them for about £70. So not sure where the £500 is coming from unless its moving and instillation as well?I can see this is getting to be a lot more then you thought AC.
However if you have that time to do some of the hard graft so to speak. Try to hire one of these for the chasing.
http://www.hss.com/g/8311/Diamond-Chasing-Machine-... , connect it to a hoover hired from the Hire company too otherwise it will really get dusty. But it will cut down your time spent doing it massively.
We use these machines as it is a great labour saving device on plaster of render covered, brick and block walls. It can be set to do varying widths and depths, so will cover all your requirements.
As always good luck with what you do decide to do.
However if you have that time to do some of the hard graft so to speak. Try to hire one of these for the chasing.
http://www.hss.com/g/8311/Diamond-Chasing-Machine-... , connect it to a hoover hired from the Hire company too otherwise it will really get dusty. But it will cut down your time spent doing it massively.
We use these machines as it is a great labour saving device on plaster of render covered, brick and block walls. It can be set to do varying widths and depths, so will cover all your requirements.
As always good luck with what you do decide to do.
If the flats were converted 60 years ago, the wiring and fusebox may be that old. How do you know it's only 20 years old - the faceplates could just have been updated?
Firstly, to bring your flat up to current regs would be hideously expensive. No point unless there are issues with what's there as in no earths in the lighting circuit (check the cables into the lightswitches for an earth), that sort of thing. I suppose paying an electrician to suck teeth may be worth considering, as long as you understand the doom and gloom in his report may not be all serious.
Moving a meter is a no-go. Utility companies, neighbours, just tastefully box the meter in and pretend it looks nice.
Assume it's all 20 years old and safe as per 1980's/90's regs, with a bit of crossbonding here and there. If it's wooden floored, get some of it up and work out where the cables run - draw a plan, and work out where you need to add sockets.
All you'll need to do is chase up 6" from the floor beneath each new socket position.
Buy a backbox and sink it into the wall, you may need to chisel away brick (chaindrill first to weaken the brick) to get the backbox flush.
At floor level, a bit of time and patience and plaster, and you'll be able to fill the chasing in yourself.
Already, you've saved the majority of the cost by DIYing.
Regarding the actual wiring - I'm not an electrician but am I right in thinking a ring main can be DIY extended? Or is that banned now too? Junction boxes are bad. Better to access existing sockets and swap a bit of cable linking two sockets 'due to damage' - that at least is still legal I think? Those pesky meeces. If you were to make the replacement cable longer, maybe so it reached where a new socket was going to go, even loop it up to the new backbox, what would be the logical thing to do there?
Whoops, silly me. Can't do that. There's rules y'know.
Please note internet electrical advice from the unskilled and quite possibly unhinged is bad and may result in death and a very long tangential PH thread that's about to get shouty
eta Once, you could buy books on this - see thread here - DIY guides
Firstly, to bring your flat up to current regs would be hideously expensive. No point unless there are issues with what's there as in no earths in the lighting circuit (check the cables into the lightswitches for an earth), that sort of thing. I suppose paying an electrician to suck teeth may be worth considering, as long as you understand the doom and gloom in his report may not be all serious.
Moving a meter is a no-go. Utility companies, neighbours, just tastefully box the meter in and pretend it looks nice.
Assume it's all 20 years old and safe as per 1980's/90's regs, with a bit of crossbonding here and there. If it's wooden floored, get some of it up and work out where the cables run - draw a plan, and work out where you need to add sockets.
All you'll need to do is chase up 6" from the floor beneath each new socket position.
Buy a backbox and sink it into the wall, you may need to chisel away brick (chaindrill first to weaken the brick) to get the backbox flush.
At floor level, a bit of time and patience and plaster, and you'll be able to fill the chasing in yourself.
Already, you've saved the majority of the cost by DIYing.
Regarding the actual wiring - I'm not an electrician but am I right in thinking a ring main can be DIY extended? Or is that banned now too? Junction boxes are bad. Better to access existing sockets and swap a bit of cable linking two sockets 'due to damage' - that at least is still legal I think? Those pesky meeces. If you were to make the replacement cable longer, maybe so it reached where a new socket was going to go, even loop it up to the new backbox, what would be the logical thing to do there?
Whoops, silly me. Can't do that. There's rules y'know.
Please note internet electrical advice from the unskilled and quite possibly unhinged is bad and may result in death and a very long tangential PH thread that's about to get shouty
eta Once, you could buy books on this - see thread here - DIY guides
Edited by andy43 on Saturday 22 January 11:24
It's quite difficult to give a ballpark figure without seeing what's involved. That's why us tradesmen in general will come out and give clients a free written quote within 24 hours or give you a quote at the time of viewing. Get on the phone and get a reputable spark round to let you know the damage HTH
HTHAlfachick said:
That much! How do you normally pay tradesmen? A bit upfront and then they send you an invoice for the completed work that you can pay a once the next paycheck has landed? I wont be able to pay for that with the money I have in the bank at the moment. Sigh. Although I can help out with the chasing in and stuff as I will be at home during the day for a month due to my job, would doing this help bring labour costs down?
Its all so complicated!
PH5121 said:
There is no way that 20 year old wiring needs replacing, (just because it is 20 years old).
Agreed. But if a contractor is going in to perform major electrical work, then the rest of the existing isntallation may not come up to the standards required for the 17th Edition IEEE wiring testing specification. Therefore the time taken to get the requried results within scope may exceed the cost of ripping out and putting in fresh cables. Other reasons to consider are a) No one likes to put their name to someone elses work, and b) Without seeing the installation and how well it was put in it is impossible to state either way. For the benefit of 'best advice' on this forum I will always err on the side of best practice/most expensive as it covers all eventualities and worse case scenario. PH5121 said:
If you are an electrician and advise people to have rewires if their installation is 20 years or older, and they go for it, people down South must be daft. If they do good luck with your business, you are on to a good thing.
I install Home Automation, Security Systems and Home Cinema. I have been a qualified electrician since I left college 26 years ago. Even though I am not hands on anymore, I run my company with pride and am equally proud of my employees. We do not advise people that they need a rewire simply because the wiring is twenty years old, but my experience is that over a typical 20 year period it will have been modified to such an extent that it would not pass the required standards for sign-off today and therefore considing the work involved it is better to rewire everything so that the homeowner can say the property has benefitted from a 'complete rewire'. It puts money on the house IMO. As for your snipe about 'People down south being daft', all of the prestigious jobs we do in London so far have been total rewires - the customers won't accept anything less..we don't half-do jobs 't' save a bit of cash like the tight northerners from middle England do 
PH5121 said:
My house was wired in the early 1970's and it is absoloutely fine. As a matter of fact I have not come across a job that has needed rewiring due to the pvc insulation degrading in the manner that older wiring systems such as tough rubber / VIR insulated cables did do.
Absolutely fine? Define that? When did you last have it tested, the regs recommend regular period inspection and it's a lot shorter than 50 years 
I agree about butol rubber etc but was a very long time ago.GG89 said:
It's quite difficult to give a ballpark figure without seeing what's involved. That's why us tradesmen in general will come out and give clients a free written quote within 24 hours or give you a quote at the time of viewing. Get on the phone and get a reputable spark round to let you know the damage HTH
Exactly. HTHI tried to give a ball-park, worse case scenario and you get a load of DIY bods or people that have no prefessional experience chiming in based on what they think should happen.
Electricity is not to be messed with, there are guidelines and skilled trades for that reason.
OP - get some local quotes in and post them up here if you like. Happy to see if they are reasonable for what's invlolved. Always get at least 3 quotes then you can see if they're all claiming the same work is required.
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