Scaleability of Mid-engined Kits?
Discussion
Hey everyone,
Whats are your guys/girls(?) thoughts on the feasibility of scaling a mid-engined car for production? For instance if you took a GTM Libra (4cyl or V6) and made the rear clip/suspension scale-able (for a V8 or V12) with the same or slightly tweaked proportions (but looked more or less the same look.) My thinking is that if you have a car that had a "scaling" rear clip is that you could then tap into a larger market while keeping your main product line more or less the same. I realize that to put a V8 or V12 on a Libra would over stress the Monocoque but as a hypothetical (all the engineering pitfalls/foibles etc aside.) Do you think that a company with such an option would have a competitive edge over all the other companies? Bear in mind I use the Libra as an example because that was what I was thinking about at the time, but I think this practice could be implemented fairly well on other models of cars as well which would take a lot of the guess work out of making a "modded" kit for the end-user (Ultima's with V12's comes to mind.)
Thanks,
-Matt
Whats are your guys/girls(?) thoughts on the feasibility of scaling a mid-engined car for production? For instance if you took a GTM Libra (4cyl or V6) and made the rear clip/suspension scale-able (for a V8 or V12) with the same or slightly tweaked proportions (but looked more or less the same look.) My thinking is that if you have a car that had a "scaling" rear clip is that you could then tap into a larger market while keeping your main product line more or less the same. I realize that to put a V8 or V12 on a Libra would over stress the Monocoque but as a hypothetical (all the engineering pitfalls/foibles etc aside.) Do you think that a company with such an option would have a competitive edge over all the other companies? Bear in mind I use the Libra as an example because that was what I was thinking about at the time, but I think this practice could be implemented fairly well on other models of cars as well which would take a lot of the guess work out of making a "modded" kit for the end-user (Ultima's with V12's comes to mind.)
Thanks,
-Matt
I doubt it would work the way you want it too. A small car design may well work because it is small...make it larger and the reason it worked is gone.
A Smart gets away with the way it looks because its prime function is size...make it bigger and there will be no reason for it to exist.
Steve
A Smart gets away with the way it looks because its prime function is size...make it bigger and there will be no reason for it to exist.
Steve
AbusingTheMoog said:
Hey everyone,
Whats are your guys/girls(?) thoughts on the feasibility of scaling a mid-engined car for production? For instance if you took a GTM Libra (4cyl or V6) and made the rear clip/suspension scale-able (for a V8 or V12) with the same or slightly tweaked proportions (but looked more or less the same look.) My thinking is that if you have a car that had a "scaling" rear clip is that you could then tap into a larger market while keeping your main product line more or less the same. I realize that to put a V8 or V12 on a Libra would over stress the Monocoque but as a hypothetical (all the engineering pitfalls/foibles etc aside.) Do you think that a company with such an option would have a competitive edge over all the other companies? Bear in mind I use the Libra as an example because that was what I was thinking about at the time, but I think this practice could be implemented fairly well on other models of cars as well which would take a lot of the guess work out of making a "modded" kit for the end-user (Ultima's with V12's comes to mind.)
Thanks,
-Matt
The example you have chosen is a pretty good example of why it would be difficult. The rear suspension is hung off the back of the bulkhead. Making it longer to increase the wheelbase would magnify any design compromises made by using the rearward facing double wishbones. The same would be true for the popular Z cars trailing arm conversion.Whats are your guys/girls(?) thoughts on the feasibility of scaling a mid-engined car for production? For instance if you took a GTM Libra (4cyl or V6) and made the rear clip/suspension scale-able (for a V8 or V12) with the same or slightly tweaked proportions (but looked more or less the same look.) My thinking is that if you have a car that had a "scaling" rear clip is that you could then tap into a larger market while keeping your main product line more or less the same. I realize that to put a V8 or V12 on a Libra would over stress the Monocoque but as a hypothetical (all the engineering pitfalls/foibles etc aside.) Do you think that a company with such an option would have a competitive edge over all the other companies? Bear in mind I use the Libra as an example because that was what I was thinking about at the time, but I think this practice could be implemented fairly well on other models of cars as well which would take a lot of the guess work out of making a "modded" kit for the end-user (Ultima's with V12's comes to mind.)
Thanks,
-Matt
The engine is tranverse, so putting a V6 is do-able, but a v8 would have to go N/S and then the whole rear end is new.
The engine hangs off the tub, and making a frame for a bigger engine would necessitate a new design.
You cant just scale up, or stretch, it would need re-engineering from scratch. There is a GTM being transformed at this moment. - It's a huge job, the builder might have saved work by starting from scratch. I can't wait to see it though!
A
Actually we can do that with the VAG range of engines in the Deronda.It's set up the right way with the engine in the middle longitudinally. It will take the 4 cylinder (as fitted in the red car 1.8 turbo 300bhp) the V6 and the V8 easily. We've had a quick look at the V10 and reckon it will go too!
The Bugatti won't!
but to be honest you'll have a totally uncontrollable car with that sort of power in it. We're at about the 450/tonne mark at the moment with the 1.8 turbo putting out 300bhp weighing 667kg and I really can not see any point in any more power than that, you just won't get it on the tarmac without electronics and then you're not really driving the car as you've handed it over to a computer. Unless of course you want to go sideways everywhere in which case save your money and get a Capri
The Bugatti won't!
but to be honest you'll have a totally uncontrollable car with that sort of power in it. We're at about the 450/tonne mark at the moment with the 1.8 turbo putting out 300bhp weighing 667kg and I really can not see any point in any more power than that, you just won't get it on the tarmac without electronics and then you're not really driving the car as you've handed it over to a computer. Unless of course you want to go sideways everywhere in which case save your money and get a Capri Edited by qdos on Saturday 22 January 11:10
DARE uk, who are the original owners of Ginetta Cars, are working on a modern version of their successful G12 racing car of the 60s
The car has been redesigned to be longer and wider than the original G12, but also has a modular chassis design where the chassis from rear bulkhead back is interchangeable. This will allow both midengined duratec and chevy v8 powerplants in the same body.
The car has been redesigned to be longer and wider than the original G12, but also has a modular chassis design where the chassis from rear bulkhead back is interchangeable. This will allow both midengined duratec and chevy v8 powerplants in the same body.
EFA said:
A Ultima will take a BMW or Ferrari V12 without scaling.
Unless I'm mistaken the Ultima V12 projects (ones I've seen anyways) have been heavily modded. My point being "remove the guess-work" of a modded V12, and just drop your lump in and get driving as soon as possible. In hindsight I realize the GTM Libra was probably not the best pick to use as an example I.E. the tub and rear suspension but I think I was trying to hit more on the saleability of a such a car, I realize the engineering aspect would be a lot to undertake for a car company I'm willing to guess that most manufacturers are "happy enough" with the line ups they have otherwise they would make something else. But if a company were to start off the bat with a "range" of vehicles that more or less scaled; my belief anyways is that they would have a better standing in the market for instance the Ultima has been around for a long time, they are established and have a fairly loyal and steadfast group of customers. A company could make a car similar in function as an Ultima and tap into "lower priced" markets with V6 and 4cyl. models of the same car and get the "same" handling and look/fun factor as the bigger V8/V10/V12s. Like one of the guys said above its kind of mental to have more than 450bhp/ton but the flip side of that coin is there are A LOT of customers (particularly America) that have the mentality of "more is better" and from what I've seen the kit car market is America is small with the potential to be huge. Perhaps not right now given the current socio-economic climate, but in 3-5years I can see Americans dishing out handfuls of cash for "hobbies" again.
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