Want one?

[RobDickinson]

Would you be prepaired to buy one of these?

Full frame 135 35mm B&W sensor, ~20mp, no AA/bayer filter.
Small Rangefinder like body
Full manual or basic meetering only
20/35/50/85 primes only.

Thom seems to think theres a market for them, me too.

[jimmy156]

What sort of price range are you talking?

[Simpo Two]

I wonder if a sensor that only records BW might have a higher DR than a colour one?



But then you have to remember that BW is only a chopped up version of colour... hmm...

[RobDickinson]

Simpo Two said:

I wonder if a sensor that only records BW might have a higher DR than a colour one?



But then you have to remember that BW is only a chopped up version of colour... hmm...

B&W sensor wouldnt be a chopped up colour one.

Colour is created by the bayer filter whch sets 2 green, 1 red one blue pixels via coloured layes.

Remove this and just measure luminosity and you instantly get 2/3rds more light hitting the sensor.

Not sure if you'd get more dynamic range as such though.

I'd guess the body would be £2-3k?

[Cabinet Enforcer]

RobDickinson said:

Would you be prepaired to buy one of these?

Full frame 135 35mm B&W sensor, ~20mp, no AA/bayer filter.
Small Rangefinder like body
Full manual or basic meetering only
20/35/50/85 primes only.

Thom seems to think theres a market for them, me too.

I think it would be too niche to be financially viable, full frame sensors don't come cheap and you still have all the cost of the electronics to handle the data capture and file storage.

If you want to try out the concept, then look at a sigma DP1 or DP2. They have a 1.7x crop 4.7mp sensor with no AA filter and the raws can be processed to be true B+W with available freeware since the sensor doesn't use a bayer array. 4.7mp without AA filter is adequate for A3 prints easily.

If sigma decide to put their new 15mp sensor into a DP series camera, you might get almost what you are after.

[SamHH]

What you're suggesting seems to be like a Leica M9 with fewer lenses and without the ability to take colour photos. Therefore, I'd imagine the market would be quite a lot smaller than the M9's market, especially if it didn't have the Lecia badge to get sales from collectors.

[Nick M]

The idea appeals to me as well, albeit as an addition to my existing kit rather than a replacement.

In terms of marketing it, I have a feeling it could be a "if you build it they will come buy" sort of thing, like the Fuji X100 that's about to be released.

[Simpo Two]

RobDickinson said:

B&W sensor wouldnt be a chopped up colour one.

Colour is created by the bayer filter whch sets 2 green, 1 red one blue pixels via coloured layes.

Remove this and just measure luminosity and you instantly get 2/3rds more light hitting the sensor.

I suppose what I meant was that you're discarding information (colour information). The filters don't create the colour, they divide the spectrum into chunks.

So if you take a digital camera and remove the filters it becomes a BW camera?

[Ammo 7]

I got an email from Phase One a few weeks ago about their new black and white digital back. Some information here: http://www.phaseone.com/en/testimonials/acromatic-...

[Bacardi]

Simpo Two said:

So if you take a digital camera and remove the filters it becomes a BW camera?

That's right. Just get a watchmakers screwdriver between the filter and chip and it should ping off a treat. When you want to put it back, just stick it with a bit of blue tack at each corner. This will add huge versatility to your D200!

[Simpo Two]

I'll stick to Photoshop!

But at least the Phase One jobbie mentioned above will help keep your tax bill down




Next thing they'll be arranging organic micro-sensors into a grain structure

[Bacardi]

Simpo Two said:

I'll stick to Photoshop!

But at least the Phase One jobbie mentioned above will help keep your tax bill down

Nah, my next back will be full colour thanks. Should still help with the tax bill though.

Thinking about bayer filters, I remember, when I was a lad, when Leaf bought out one of the first quality colour solutions, the DCB1, using a B&W sensor and front-of-lens motorised filter wheel for the colour exposures. It wasn't very good for fashion! It came out in 93 and reading about the requirements of the day, makes you realise how far the tech has come. You needed a whopping 64mbs of RAM (costing another whooping £1800!), to run it. At £25k, the back certainly would have made a dent in your tax bill! For those interested, you can read about it here: http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9304cs.html

Simpo Two said:

Next thing they'll be arranging organic micro-sensors into a grain structure

That's so old hat! They were doing that, back in 1903 with the Autochrome process... using potato starch... to great effect too!

Edited by Bacardi on Sunday 30th January 18:11

[RobDickinson]

The Voyager spacecraft used a colour wheel for colour shots , its not new tech!

Yep basicaly a leica M9 without colour for 1/4 the cost, it could eaisly be done.

[SamHH]

I suppose it would heavily depend on the price. A quarter of the M9's (UK street) price is £1250, not £2000—3000. Would putting a black and white sensor in the M9 lop £3750 off the price though?

I'm more interested in the mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras from the mass-market manufacturers; looking forward to seeing what Canon's and Nikon's mirrorless cameras are going to be like.

[RobDickinson]

Cabinet Enforcer said:

If you want to try out the concept, then look at a sigma DP1 or DP2. They have a 1.7x crop 4.7mp sensor with no AA filter and the raws can be processed to be true B+W with available freeware since the sensor doesn't use a bayer array. 4.7mp without AA filter is adequate for A3 prints easily.

Still a crop sensor and fixed lens, and a slow lens.

Sensor would be cheap for a FF sensor (less filters) but still pricey, body would be cheap to make.

Hm it may be more palatable as a colour sensor I guess, that will cut down on low light abilities etc tho.

Edited by RobDickinson on Sunday 30th January 21:13

[hiscocks]

Sounds like an Epson R-D1 apart from the cropped sensor. I don't mind that, though - I use the same 28mm lens I use on my Leica and it's great on the Epson.

I heard Fuji may develop an interchangeable lens version of the X100 but who knows. It's more 'digital' in feel than I would like; the R-D1 is just lovely to handle and use.

[Simpo Two]

hiscocks said:

Sounds like an Epson R-D1

Had to Google that; it's like something from Jules Verne!

[hiscocks]

It's a great camera - Seiko made those dials. Really cool to watch them spinning around and definitely adds to the analog feel. You can flip the digital screen around on the back so it hides the fact it's digital completely. It even has a film advance lever which cocks the shutter.