Question about Fair Photo Rates
Discussion
I have been approached by a rare car owner to take some shots of the vehicle in order for the client to commercially publish the images in an iPad eBook. There is also the possibility of future vehicles for additional ebooks. Sounds good right? Well in theory yes, BUT I am trying to come up with a payment model that makes it worth me giving up my time and is fair to people who do this for a living as I am not out to undercut.
I had originally suggested a £100 'turn up fee' per vehicle to cover expenses and equipment wear and tear, non-exclusive licence of the images and then 20% of all download revenue (the ebook would sell for 59p and I am not expecting Angry Birds volumes of sales!). The client countered saying that up front payment was not favourable due to the other publishing costs (he was originally planning to take the photos himself), he was expecting full ownership of the images (or at least exclusive use) and he thought the percentage was too high (after Apple's cut).
Options (assuming we can agree a non-exclusive licence arrangement):
a) Charge a simple time and materials price for photos, travel and processing (£50 per hour - I estimate 8 hours effort - assuming natural light images to keep processing down)
b) Stick to my guns about the original proposal as it sounds fair (to me)
c) Lower the percentage but increase the turn up fee
d) Walk away
So does my proposal sound fair or am I charging too much or too little?
My gut feel for image ownership or an exclusive licence is measured in something like £100 per image - too high/low?
Also, I have suggested he needs to fill in a simple property release form to cover any issues with image resale - is this needed or recommended?
Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated
I had originally suggested a £100 'turn up fee' per vehicle to cover expenses and equipment wear and tear, non-exclusive licence of the images and then 20% of all download revenue (the ebook would sell for 59p and I am not expecting Angry Birds volumes of sales!). The client countered saying that up front payment was not favourable due to the other publishing costs (he was originally planning to take the photos himself), he was expecting full ownership of the images (or at least exclusive use) and he thought the percentage was too high (after Apple's cut).
Options (assuming we can agree a non-exclusive licence arrangement):
a) Charge a simple time and materials price for photos, travel and processing (£50 per hour - I estimate 8 hours effort - assuming natural light images to keep processing down)
b) Stick to my guns about the original proposal as it sounds fair (to me)
c) Lower the percentage but increase the turn up fee
d) Walk away
So does my proposal sound fair or am I charging too much or too little?
My gut feel for image ownership or an exclusive licence is measured in something like £100 per image - too high/low?
Also, I have suggested he needs to fill in a simple property release form to cover any issues with image resale - is this needed or recommended?
Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated
He doesn't own a rare car by being dumb - or poor.
How badly do you want your work used/published? Whose need is the greater?
If he is to be believed, he doesn't want to take the photos himself. So frankly, unless you are desperate for something on the CV, I'd hold out for what YOU think is fair, which is what you stated. If he does agree, get paid up front. If he doesn't agree, he wasn't worth it anyway. You're in charge of the deal, not him.
So in order your options are (b), (a), (d).
NB: The old line 'If you can do this for 4p there'll be more work, honest' is hogwash.
How badly do you want your work used/published? Whose need is the greater?
If he is to be believed, he doesn't want to take the photos himself. So frankly, unless you are desperate for something on the CV, I'd hold out for what YOU think is fair, which is what you stated. If he does agree, get paid up front. If he doesn't agree, he wasn't worth it anyway. You're in charge of the deal, not him.
So in order your options are (b), (a), (d).
NB: The old line 'If you can do this for 4p there'll be more work, honest' is hogwash.
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 14th February 10:21
Don't know rates for an eBook so we'll just call it a book.
Commision:
With right to re-use in a subsequent edition 750.00
With non-exclusive world rights for one title 500.00
Day rate 300.00
Processing (assuming you'll be using digital):
Rushed processing: add 100.00%
Bulk processing images: per hour 100.00
Bulk processing images minimum charge: per hour 60.00
Wiring selected but uncorrected ex-camera files 50.00
Digital transmission 20.00
Contact sheet (in print or on the web) 20.00
High resolution colour corrected file (whether from digital original or scanned from film) 15.00
Writing to CD/DVD 10.00
Commision:
With right to re-use in a subsequent edition 750.00
With non-exclusive world rights for one title 500.00
Day rate 300.00
Processing (assuming you'll be using digital):
Rushed processing: add 100.00%
Bulk processing images: per hour 100.00
Bulk processing images minimum charge: per hour 60.00
Wiring selected but uncorrected ex-camera files 50.00
Digital transmission 20.00
Contact sheet (in print or on the web) 20.00
High resolution colour corrected file (whether from digital original or scanned from film) 15.00
Writing to CD/DVD 10.00
Sounds like the the person commissioning the images has not really thought this through. At 59p for the e-book they are going to have to sell an enormous volume to recoup costs. Ask yourself, is this some kind of vanity project for them?
If they have approached you then they like your syle of photography and not anyone else. The thing that sticks in my mind was "I was goign to take them myself". Have you seen examples of what their images are like, are they like Dean's or are they just very ordinary?
In the end it all coems down to how much you want to do the project. Based on Dean's pricing I'd say your opening offer was really very reasonable.
The difference good photography makes to a book/magazine is huge. Would EVO have been such a huge initial success without great images?
For me as someone not invloved in the project it's pretty clear cut. If the owner wants exclusive rights then they have to pay a reasonable sum for your time and effort in producing them. Turn it around, if you were buying their services just how much would they expect? At your opening offer of 100 per vehcile, assuming a minimum of 10 hours per project to research, get there, shoot, get home and process you're on a tenner per hour!
If they can agree a non-exclusive licence then you might be able to put less into the up front and more into the ongoing fee. 20% sounds good if there are a lot of images in the e-book. Again though, at 59p sale value, the volumes will have to be massive to make it worth your while. If this is a vanity project you could get stiffed easily. Plus you have to trust them to pay you the 20%.
The publisher needs to look at that price again, really needs to be 1.99 or 2.99 minimum to a reasonable return
To give you an idea some of my recent stock sales
1. 1 day licence, UK newspaper, up to 5m print run, 1 page size, GBP100
2. 1 year licence, Sweden, book run up to 250,000, 1/2 page size, GBP 200
3. Royalty free 60MB file, GBP 70
These are all before the agency cut too
I'd say stick to your opening offer, it's very fair. If they want exclusivity and are not willing to pay then walk you can just feel it's going to be a clusterf
k.
Remember you have what he wants, not the other way round.
If they have approached you then they like your syle of photography and not anyone else. The thing that sticks in my mind was "I was goign to take them myself". Have you seen examples of what their images are like, are they like Dean's or are they just very ordinary?
In the end it all coems down to how much you want to do the project. Based on Dean's pricing I'd say your opening offer was really very reasonable.
The difference good photography makes to a book/magazine is huge. Would EVO have been such a huge initial success without great images?
For me as someone not invloved in the project it's pretty clear cut. If the owner wants exclusive rights then they have to pay a reasonable sum for your time and effort in producing them. Turn it around, if you were buying their services just how much would they expect? At your opening offer of 100 per vehcile, assuming a minimum of 10 hours per project to research, get there, shoot, get home and process you're on a tenner per hour!
If they can agree a non-exclusive licence then you might be able to put less into the up front and more into the ongoing fee. 20% sounds good if there are a lot of images in the e-book. Again though, at 59p sale value, the volumes will have to be massive to make it worth your while. If this is a vanity project you could get stiffed easily. Plus you have to trust them to pay you the 20%.
The publisher needs to look at that price again, really needs to be 1.99 or 2.99 minimum to a reasonable return
To give you an idea some of my recent stock sales
1. 1 day licence, UK newspaper, up to 5m print run, 1 page size, GBP100
2. 1 year licence, Sweden, book run up to 250,000, 1/2 page size, GBP 200
3. Royalty free 60MB file, GBP 70
These are all before the agency cut too
I'd say stick to your opening offer, it's very fair. If they want exclusivity and are not willing to pay then walk you can just feel it's going to be a clusterf
k. Remember you have what he wants, not the other way round.
Two conversations on same day last week:
Local Newspaper:
"We would like to use some of your images to illustrate the concert that you photographed for [Charity-X]."
"Certainly. What are your standard rates for images and will we get a credit."
"Sorry, we don't pay for photographs and we will only caption them Photo Supplied."
Outcome: I supplied them because the charity needs the publicity.
London PR Company:
"We are organising an event at [Prestigous London Venue]. [Glossy Magazine] recommended you and looking at your work I can understand why. We would like to use your images in the brochure but due to financial constraints, we cannot pay for the images. You will of course, get credited."
Outcome: [In the nicest possible way] "Thank You, but No Thank You."
Once again, the assumption that photographers don't actually need payment for their work; just a credit (sometimes!).
Local Newspaper:
"We would like to use some of your images to illustrate the concert that you photographed for [Charity-X]."
"Certainly. What are your standard rates for images and will we get a credit."
"Sorry, we don't pay for photographs and we will only caption them Photo Supplied."
Outcome: I supplied them because the charity needs the publicity.
London PR Company:
"We are organising an event at [Prestigous London Venue]. [Glossy Magazine] recommended you and looking at your work I can understand why. We would like to use your images in the brochure but due to financial constraints, we cannot pay for the images. You will of course, get credited."
Outcome: [In the nicest possible way] "Thank You, but No Thank You."
Once again, the assumption that photographers don't actually need payment for their work; just a credit (sometimes!).
Thanks guys.
You are right, I am probably way too cheap but I am pretty low on the experience score. There is no way that I am agreeing to an exclusive deal without significantly more upfront cash. I agree the risk of being stiffed is there and I hadn't thought of anything other than some sort of signed contract and access to the original Apple sales figures statements to mitigate that risk.
Thanks again for the advice gents. I will enter the next round of negotiation significantly better informed than the last round. Though I am minded to say "take it or leave it"!
Simpo Two said:
He doesn't own a rare car by being dumb - or poor.
How badly do you want your work used/published? Whose need is the greater?
I agree he is driving a hard bargain because he can and so would I in the position. I am not desperate for publication so I have not been too flexible in negotiation so far.How badly do you want your work used/published? Whose need is the greater?
Simpo Two said:
If he doesn't agree, he wasn't worth it anyway. You're in charge of the deal, not him.
Absolutely agree Simpo Two said:
NB: The old line 'If you can do this for 4p there'll be more work, honest' is hogwash.
Yep, I know that one well //dean said:
Don't know rates for an eBook so we'll just call it a book.
Wow thanks for the detail. I am in a much lower league to you but even then my rates look rather cheap.CVP said:
Sounds like the the person commissioning the images has not really thought this through. At 59p for the e-book they are going to have to sell an enormous volume to recoup costs. Ask yourself, is this some kind of vanity project for them?
I have asked myself last week and I have come to the same conclusions. I can't tell you the background but this is definitely a vanity project.CVP said:
Have you seen examples of what their images are like, are they like Dean's or are they just very ordinary?
Yes I have and they are snapshots (albeit with a good camera). The car was in one location and it looks like he spent half an hour taking as many detail shots as possible. No where near Dean levels of excellence. I genuinely think he was planning to take the shots himself before he ran across me.CVP said:
In the end it all coems down to how much you want to do the project. Based on Dean's pricing I'd say your opening offer was really very reasonable.
I agree. I would be doing it for the experience and cost recovery. I am concious that I don't want to undercut people but from what I have learned so far there is NO WAY he would pay full commercial rates.CVP said:
At your opening offer of 100 per vehcile, assuming a minimum of 10 hours per project to research, get there, shoot, get home and process you're on a tenner per hour!
Don't forget the 12p per download You are right, I am probably way too cheap but I am pretty low on the experience score. There is no way that I am agreeing to an exclusive deal without significantly more upfront cash. I agree the risk of being stiffed is there and I hadn't thought of anything other than some sort of signed contract and access to the original Apple sales figures statements to mitigate that risk.CVP said:
20% sounds good if there are a lot of images in the e-book. Again though, at 59p sale value, the volumes will have to be massive to make it worth your while.
Yeah there is a risk that this is a vanity project for me as well but so far I have been sticking to my original offer as I need the experience but I am not going to do commercial work for free! The sample book he showed me with his images in had about 200 home made images in it. My initial thought was that unless he wants quantity rather than quality and can't/won't afford a proper 'portfolio' style set of images of the car. Personally I think 20-30 really really good images would sell far better than 200 snapshots. If we went down that route then he would have to pay me more than £100 as the effort to source locations would be huge.Thanks again for the advice gents. I will enter the next round of negotiation significantly better informed than the last round. Though I am minded to say "take it or leave it"!
Ed_P said:
Two conversations on same day last week:
Local Newspaper:
"We would like to use some of your images to illustrate the concert that you photographed for [Charity-X]."
"Certainly. What are your standard rates for images and will we get a credit."
"Sorry, we don't pay for photographs and we will only caption them Photo Supplied."
Outcome: I supplied them because the charity needs the publicity.
London PR Company:
"We are organising an event at [Prestigous London Venue]. [Glossy Magazine] recommended you and looking at your work I can understand why. We would like to use your images in the brochure but due to financial constraints, we cannot pay for the images. You will of course, get credited."
Outcome: [In the nicest possible way] "Thank You, but No Thank You."
Once again, the assumption that photographers don't actually need payment for their work; just a credit (sometimes!).
LOL. I have had that experience also.Local Newspaper:
"We would like to use some of your images to illustrate the concert that you photographed for [Charity-X]."
"Certainly. What are your standard rates for images and will we get a credit."
"Sorry, we don't pay for photographs and we will only caption them Photo Supplied."
Outcome: I supplied them because the charity needs the publicity.
London PR Company:
"We are organising an event at [Prestigous London Venue]. [Glossy Magazine] recommended you and looking at your work I can understand why. We would like to use your images in the brochure but due to financial constraints, we cannot pay for the images. You will of course, get credited."
Outcome: [In the nicest possible way] "Thank You, but No Thank You."
Once again, the assumption that photographers don't actually need payment for their work; just a credit (sometimes!).
Ed_P said:
Once again, the assumption that photographers don't actually need payment for their work; just a credit (sometimes!).
Well it is digital so there's no film to pay for. I just print out my credits, meld them into a handy brick then burn them to keep warm. Add some ketchup (if I can find any in a neighbour's dustbin) and it makes a tasty supper too!Gassing Station | Photography & Video | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff