lack of road tax question- ticke
Discussion
Got the TVR MOT'd on Friday, and on the way home I decided to get tax for it too. It had been sorn'd and the tax and mot had expired while it was laid up, so it was showing an out of date tax disc. I was going to leave the car at the MOT place and walk to the PO, but decided that the chances of a traffic warden catching me were minimal, as I would be in and out in 5 minutes. I also reasoned that I was allowed to take my car to and from an MOT station legally, and also that a supermarket car park is not the public road, so they could not legally put a ticket on my car while it was sat in the car park.
How wrong was I
Got to the PO and it must've been pension day or something. There were about 30 people in the queue. I got my tax after about 30 minutes, and got back to the car to find a request from Strathclydes finest for the princely sum of £30.
Now I know its not a lot of money, but its the principle involved, that i was not trying to defraud the government out of my hard earned cash, as I had the current disk in my sweaty palm when the ticket was issued.
So my question is this : is this worth appealing against? I know they will hit me with failing to display, but surely a car park is not a public road, and I had a legal right to drive it there untaxed. Anyone care to comment on the legality of my interpretation? Or should I just put this down to a lesson learned?
How wrong was I
Got to the PO and it must've been pension day or something. There were about 30 people in the queue. I got my tax after about 30 minutes, and got back to the car to find a request from Strathclydes finest for the princely sum of £30. Now I know its not a lot of money, but its the principle involved, that i was not trying to defraud the government out of my hard earned cash, as I had the current disk in my sweaty palm when the ticket was issued.
So my question is this : is this worth appealing against? I know they will hit me with failing to display, but surely a car park is not a public road, and I had a legal right to drive it there untaxed. Anyone care to comment on the legality of my interpretation? Or should I just put this down to a lesson learned?
Can you confirm that you took a licence out for the vehicle on Friday 30th April, 2004.
If the Licence became valid from the 1st April, 2004, then there is no offence of using without a current Licence.
There is as you say the offence of failing to display on a Road on the journey to Car Park from MOT Station. If this is the case then, on the premis that nothing ventured nothing gained, write back to the issuing authority pointing out on the return from the Test Station you relicenced the vehicle to make matters legal. Also point out (if this is the case)a Supermarket Car Park, where the ticket was issued, for the purposes of Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994 is not a public road i.e. repaired at the public expense (Supermarket responsible for repairs and upkeep.) It is only an offence to keep/use a vehicle, display Licence on a PUBLIC ROAD. A Supermarket Car Park not maintained by public expense then no offences committed as it is not a Public Road under the Act
What worries me is the fact as your coming off SORN and the close proximity of change of one month to another when you relicensed, that if you obtained the licence to commence on Saturday 1st May, 2004 (thus saving 29 days tax in April) you may have made a false declaration to obtain the Licence by failing to declare the use of the vehicle on 30.4.04 ??????? There would be this question on your application form i.e. Date last Licence expired, Date new Licence commences. If dates not consecutive has vehicle been used on a Public Road?
This is considered to be a serious offence &5,000 fine and or 2 years imprisonment (Sect 45 VE & Reg Act 1994).
As what to do on this later scenario if it applies?
More information needed.
Who issued Ticket, Police or Local Authority Warden?.
If the later do you know if they follow up on submitted form to DVLA re No Licence shown on vehicle?
Casual enquiry of authority without disclosing too much you might get the answer.
Confirm Ticket issued to your vehicle whilst parked on Supermarket car park.
Confirm Supermarket responsible for repair/upkeep of Car park and not Local Authority.
DVD
If the Licence became valid from the 1st April, 2004, then there is no offence of using without a current Licence.
There is as you say the offence of failing to display on a Road on the journey to Car Park from MOT Station. If this is the case then, on the premis that nothing ventured nothing gained, write back to the issuing authority pointing out on the return from the Test Station you relicenced the vehicle to make matters legal. Also point out (if this is the case)a Supermarket Car Park, where the ticket was issued, for the purposes of Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994 is not a public road i.e. repaired at the public expense (Supermarket responsible for repairs and upkeep.) It is only an offence to keep/use a vehicle, display Licence on a PUBLIC ROAD. A Supermarket Car Park not maintained by public expense then no offences committed as it is not a Public Road under the Act
What worries me is the fact as your coming off SORN and the close proximity of change of one month to another when you relicensed, that if you obtained the licence to commence on Saturday 1st May, 2004 (thus saving 29 days tax in April) you may have made a false declaration to obtain the Licence by failing to declare the use of the vehicle on 30.4.04 ??????? There would be this question on your application form i.e. Date last Licence expired, Date new Licence commences. If dates not consecutive has vehicle been used on a Public Road?
This is considered to be a serious offence &5,000 fine and or 2 years imprisonment (Sect 45 VE & Reg Act 1994).
As what to do on this later scenario if it applies?
More information needed.
Who issued Ticket, Police or Local Authority Warden?.
If the later do you know if they follow up on submitted form to DVLA re No Licence shown on vehicle?
Casual enquiry of authority without disclosing too much you might get the answer.
Confirm Ticket issued to your vehicle whilst parked on Supermarket car park.
Confirm Supermarket responsible for repair/upkeep of Car park and not Local Authority.
DVD
Dwight VanDriver said:
Can you confirm that you took a licence out for the vehicle on Friday 30th April, 2004.
If the Licence became valid from the 1st April, 2004, then there is no offence of using without a current Licence.
There is as you say the offence of failing to display on a Road on the journey to Car Park from MOT Station. If this is the case then, on the premis that nothing ventured nothing gained, write back to the issuing authority pointing out on the return from the Test Station you relicenced the vehicle to make matters legal. Also point out (if this is the case)a Supermarket Car Park, where the ticket was issued, for the purposes of Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994 is not a public road i.e. repaired at the public expense (Supermarket responsible for repairs and upkeep.) It is only an offence to keep/use a vehicle, display Licence on a PUBLIC ROAD. A Supermarket Car Park not maintained by public expense then no offences committed as it is not a Public Road under the Act
What worries me is the fact as your coming off SORN and the close proximity of change of one month to another when you relicensed, that if you obtained the licence to commence on Saturday 1st May, 2004 (thus saving 29 days tax in April) you may have made a false declaration to obtain the Licence by failing to declare the use of the vehicle on 30.4.04 ??????? There would be this question on your application form i.e. Date last Licence expired, Date new Licence commences. If dates not consecutive has vehicle been used on a Public Road?
This is considered to be a serious offence &5,000 fine and or 2 years imprisonment (Sect 45 VE & Reg Act 1994).
As what to do on this later scenario if it applies?
More information needed.
Who issued Ticket, Police or Local Authority Warden?.
If the later do you know if they follow up on submitted form to DVLA re No Licence shown on vehicle?
Casual enquiry of authority without disclosing too much you might get the answer.
Confirm Ticket issued to your vehicle whilst parked on Supermarket car park.
Confirm Supermarket responsible for repair/upkeep of Car park and not Local Authority.
DVD
Thanks for the reply. I had sorn'd the car when the tax expired in Nov 2003 and the car has been laid up ever since. I booked the MOT for Friday, as that had expired too, by a few weeks.I just decided to get tax while on the way home. You can get tax 2 days before the end of the month according to the rear of the V10 form, so it is valid on the 30th April, although it starts from the 1st of May.
I saw the traffic warden about 5 mins afer he had issued the ticket,(local authority) and spoke to him about it. He suggested I should appeal it in writing, though he was not sure about the law. Just wondered if anyone on here knew any better than he did.
Form V10 states that you can relicense a vehicle 2 days beforehand. So on Thursday 29th April you can re-license and the new Licence will not COMMENCE until 1st May. It doesn't authorise back use on 30th April. To do that the Licence should have been taken out to start 1st April.
Now I am not sure as I've never worked with them (I was one of the old all singing dancing do everything BIB)so if TW has sheeted you for failing to display, I can well imagine that he will also put a Form CLE 2/6 (Report of Excise Offence) to DVLA pointing out the expired Licence aspect. (TR, BPB please confirm).
Form arrives at DVLA and is married up with your record which will show expired licence,SORN, non in force on 30th April and movement of vehicle from place of SORN to where booked on that date. There will be a record of new Licence from 1.5. DVLA will note what you have declared about use on 30.4. and possible false declaration made.
You may be lucky, bit doubtful, for DVLA to leave it at that but from my days and I presume the same applies now, they will either pass to their own Enquiry Section/Local Police for follow up and possible Court.
If that is the case your mitigating factors was movement to get Tested and then to get Taxed which was accomplished within the hour of getting the MOT together with confusion over Form V10.
As to the fail to dislay, note my comments about a Supermarket Car park not being a Public Road, so no offence if you were ticketed there with no evidence by TW of your driving from/to a proper road. This should form grounds of an Appeal.
DVLA over the past year or so has tightened up on Excise matters and are very draconian in attitude so that genuine mistakes are being punished as an out and out fraud.
Edit: Intrigued I got the Act out and read what is actually stated other than my notes which could be good news to you:
1. A vehicle is exempt from Excise Duty whilst being submitted, by previous arrangement for a specified time on a specified date, for an MOT.
2. A vehicle is exempt from Excise Duty whilst bringing it away a compulsory test.
(Schedule 2 (22)(1)(a) (b), Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994.)
It is submitted it does not prohibit stopping before getting back home and getting a Licence.
3. Excise duty only applies to vehicles being used/kept on a Public road, which under the act is defined as a road repairable at public expense.
Enough there to justify your appeal to LA re fail to display. But be aware that the law states that there is no defence to fail to display if use without is charged. (Pilgrim v Dean 1974)
If it goes to DVLA then because of the above (no duty payable on 30.4. because of the Test exemption), then the above can be used to counter not declaring use, if that is the case on 30.4.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 3rd May 20:39
Now I am not sure as I've never worked with them (I was one of the old all singing dancing do everything BIB)so if TW has sheeted you for failing to display, I can well imagine that he will also put a Form CLE 2/6 (Report of Excise Offence) to DVLA pointing out the expired Licence aspect. (TR, BPB please confirm).
Form arrives at DVLA and is married up with your record which will show expired licence,SORN, non in force on 30th April and movement of vehicle from place of SORN to where booked on that date. There will be a record of new Licence from 1.5. DVLA will note what you have declared about use on 30.4. and possible false declaration made.
You may be lucky, bit doubtful, for DVLA to leave it at that but from my days and I presume the same applies now, they will either pass to their own Enquiry Section/Local Police for follow up and possible Court.
If that is the case your mitigating factors was movement to get Tested and then to get Taxed which was accomplished within the hour of getting the MOT together with confusion over Form V10.
As to the fail to dislay, note my comments about a Supermarket Car park not being a Public Road, so no offence if you were ticketed there with no evidence by TW of your driving from/to a proper road. This should form grounds of an Appeal.
DVLA over the past year or so has tightened up on Excise matters and are very draconian in attitude so that genuine mistakes are being punished as an out and out fraud.
Edit: Intrigued I got the Act out and read what is actually stated other than my notes which could be good news to you:
1. A vehicle is exempt from Excise Duty whilst being submitted, by previous arrangement for a specified time on a specified date, for an MOT.
2. A vehicle is exempt from Excise Duty whilst bringing it away a compulsory test.
(Schedule 2 (22)(1)(a) (b), Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994.)
It is submitted it does not prohibit stopping before getting back home and getting a Licence.
3. Excise duty only applies to vehicles being used/kept on a Public road, which under the act is defined as a road repairable at public expense.
Enough there to justify your appeal to LA re fail to display. But be aware that the law states that there is no defence to fail to display if use without is charged. (Pilgrim v Dean 1974)
If it goes to DVLA then because of the above (no duty payable on 30.4. because of the Test exemption), then the above can be used to counter not declaring use, if that is the case on 30.4.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 3rd May 20:39
thanks for the detailed replies DVD. I only got time to digest them last night, and realised that the DVLA will probably be after a piece of me too.
So I have drafted an appeal letter against the ticket initially, thanks to your input. If I get somewhere with that, it should give me something to go on if the the DVLA decide to come next.
I did not use the car on the Friday, other than just driving it straight home after getting the MOT and ticket.
I shall keep you posted of events, but its a lesson to anyone in the same position - go home first, then get your tax with your daily driver, or walk!
So I have drafted an appeal letter against the ticket initially, thanks to your input. If I get somewhere with that, it should give me something to go on if the the DVLA decide to come next.
I did not use the car on the Friday, other than just driving it straight home after getting the MOT and ticket.
I shall keep you posted of events, but its a lesson to anyone in the same position - go home first, then get your tax with your daily driver, or walk!
I'm no expert on Scottish law, but as I see it, If your vehicle was off the road when ticketed I can't see they have a leg to stand on, people have talked previously about it being the day before the tax was valid etc, but you were not "caught" on the way home after getting tax.....who is to say the car was not taken to the supermarket car park on a trailor, and to remain there until the tax was valid???
I would definitely appeal.
Richard
I would definitely appeal.
Richard
Petercam
Sweat no more re DVLA. Called at PO am on my morning perambulation and collected a Form V10. Changed very much since I last saw one. The question (8) I feared that you may have made a false declaration is so posed that they accept to and from MOT Sation as not being use, so that is out.
DVD
Sweat no more re DVLA. Called at PO am on my morning perambulation and collected a Form V10. Changed very much since I last saw one. The question (8) I feared that you may have made a false declaration is so posed that they accept to and from MOT Sation as not being use, so that is out.
DVD
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