Help with a heated debate!
Discussion
I have posted a topic over on the Noble forum that has rightly or wrongly upset a few people. My main bone of contention is that anyone with 200K to spend on a 2 seater sports car would choose the new Maclaren, Ferrari 458 or now the new Lambo which is the same price as the Noble M600. What has not helped matters I have predicted that Noble will struggle to sell the car and that the company could not have picked a worse time to sell the car with the economy as it is and the 3 major players having just brought/bringing their cars out. I also feel that it will be a huge gamble as the company might not be about to honour the warrantys if they don't sell enough.
It seems nobody on the Noble forum has bought or ordered a new M600 (or they dont want to discuss it) and that I am asking on the wrong forum that I should be on here. So has anyone on here ordered a new Noble or know anyone that has? Also would anyone on here if they had the funds buy the Noble instead of the Lambo or other two? This is a constuctive question I am not on here to score points with the guys/girls on the Noble forum.
It seems nobody on the Noble forum has bought or ordered a new M600 (or they dont want to discuss it) and that I am asking on the wrong forum that I should be on here. So has anyone on here ordered a new Noble or know anyone that has? Also would anyone on here if they had the funds buy the Noble instead of the Lambo or other two? This is a constuctive question I am not on here to score points with the guys/girls on the Noble forum.
I tend to agree with you. No matter how brialliant the car is I doubt they sell more than a handful. Speaking to a few people in the upper trade they say things are generally slow other than exports. I think the pricing of the new car whilst possibly justified is totally crazy. Ferrari and Mclaren have tried to milk the pricing and profit and probably will short term. Long term one wonders how with lowish inflation a basic ferari has crept up about 50% in price since 2004? Lambo did the same with the G and look how many of them they are selling new at the general 'few extra' prices of £170+
I recall an interview published with the then head of Bently before the conti GT launch when he said the WORLD market for £100k plus cars was about 3000 per annum. Transpose this to today. What is the true size of the £175k world market?
I do think it is sad but I just can't follow how a small scale brilliant manufacturer goes from £50-60k cars to a single new model at £200k. Where is the customer folowing or base at that level especially years after there last car?
Expect to get shot down in flames for this!
I recall an interview published with the then head of Bently before the conti GT launch when he said the WORLD market for £100k plus cars was about 3000 per annum. Transpose this to today. What is the true size of the £175k world market?
I do think it is sad but I just can't follow how a small scale brilliant manufacturer goes from £50-60k cars to a single new model at £200k. Where is the customer folowing or base at that level especially years after there last car?
Expect to get shot down in flames for this!
I think this is the closet car in the last decade we have seen to the F40. Epic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEzHvFANUkA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEzHvFANUkA
Edited by DayTrader on Monday 28th February 22:46
A few problems with the m600. The main one is that the design is quite a few years old already being based on the m15 that lee noble designed. If I remember correctly, he originally envisioned selling that car for around 75k so it appears that carbonfibre has added over 100k to the price.
The other problem is that it doesn't have the perceived build quality to match mclaren and Ferrari because there appear to be lots of aftermarket parts being used on the car.
The original m12's sold well because it was anvery good car and relatively cheap so the name didn't matter so much. It was seen as a giant/Goliath slayer for the price. However, at 200k it can no longer be seen as such and will never be able to compete with more established players. All IMHO of course!!!
The other problem is that it doesn't have the perceived build quality to match mclaren and Ferrari because there appear to be lots of aftermarket parts being used on the car.
The original m12's sold well because it was anvery good car and relatively cheap so the name didn't matter so much. It was seen as a giant/Goliath slayer for the price. However, at 200k it can no longer be seen as such and will never be able to compete with more established players. All IMHO of course!!!
A few problems with the m600. The main one is that the design is quite a few years old already being based on the m15 that lee noble designed. If I remember correctly, he originally envisioned selling that car for around 75k so it appears that carbonfibre has added over 100k to the price.
The other problem is that it doesn't have the perceived build quality to match mclaren and Ferrari because there appear to be lots of aftermarket parts being used on the car.
The original m12's sold well because it was anvery good car and relatively cheap so the name didn't matter so much. It was seen as a giant/Goliath slayer for the price. However, at 200k it can no longer be seen as such and will never be able to compete with more established players. All IMHO of course!!!
The other problem is that it doesn't have the perceived build quality to match mclaren and Ferrari because there appear to be lots of aftermarket parts being used on the car.
The original m12's sold well because it was anvery good car and relatively cheap so the name didn't matter so much. It was seen as a giant/Goliath slayer for the price. However, at 200k it can no longer be seen as such and will never be able to compete with more established players. All IMHO of course!!!
I'd dearly love for this car to take off and to add another player into the supercar league, the Pagani brand prove that this is possible, yet the sad cycnical (and often right) part of me says that Noble wont every fully make it as a brand.
This car could truly make or break the brand, my heart would for it to be made, my head says otherwise.
This car could truly make or break the brand, my heart would for it to be made, my head says otherwise.
barefoot said:
I have posted a topic over on the Noble forum that has rightly or wrongly upset a few people. My main bone of contention is that anyone with 200K to spend on a 2 seater sports car would choose the new Maclaren, Ferrari 458 or now the new Lambo which is the same price as the Noble M600. What has not helped matters I have predicted that Noble will struggle to sell the car and that the company could not have picked a worse time to sell the car with the economy as it is and the 3 major players having just brought/bringing their cars out. I also feel that it will be a huge gamble as the company might not be about to honour the warrantys if they don't sell enough.
It seems nobody on the Noble forum has bought or ordered a new M600 (or they dont want to discuss it) and that I am asking on the wrong forum that I should be on here. So has anyone on here ordered a new Noble or know anyone that has? Also would anyone on here if they had the funds buy the Noble instead of the Lambo or other two? This is a constuctive question I am not on here to score points with the guys/girls on the Noble forum.
I was having a conversation with a friend in the pub recently about what we would do if we won Euromillions (I would start my own car company). Anyway, we both agreed that when a small company is making a car you either need to do one of two things. Make a cheap car i.e. what Noble did originally. The m12 was a car that wasn't much more than a M3 yet would keep up with a Ferrari. Or make a very bespoke car like say a Pagani Zonda. A car that although not that much faster than say a Gallardo or 458, has a unique selling point in that it is a truly bespoke car.It seems nobody on the Noble forum has bought or ordered a new M600 (or they dont want to discuss it) and that I am asking on the wrong forum that I should be on here. So has anyone on here ordered a new Noble or know anyone that has? Also would anyone on here if they had the funds buy the Noble instead of the Lambo or other two? This is a constuctive question I am not on here to score points with the guys/girls on the Noble forum.
Personally I think Noble will fail with the M600. I hope they don’t but I reckon they will. The trouble is, there isn’t much of a unique selling point to it. Yes it’s fast, but to be honest nowadays there isn’t much difference between a car that can do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 2.9 seconds. If the noble could do say 250MPH then it would be a different story but it can’t. It’s not particularly luxurious i.e. like a Zonda.
In my opinion it should have been half the price it is.
Re the Ferrari pricing thing. I think it's partly due to inflation, partly euro exchange rate and partly due to seeing Lamborghini sell their base model for 170k whilst being technically inferior to the 458 and even while the lp560 has some new appeal, it's still a 7year+ old model.
As for that comment from the head of Bentley back in '04, he was either being very specific about a type of 100k+ car or he was lying.
On the Nobel I agree with what Lambo xx said.
As for that comment from the head of Bentley back in '04, he was either being very specific about a type of 100k+ car or he was lying.
On the Nobel I agree with what Lambo xx said.
Edited by Complex on Tuesday 1st March 14:17
paulqv said:
I recall an interview published with the then head of Bently before the conti GT launch when he said the WORLD market for £100k plus cars was about 3000 per annum. Transpose this to today. What is the true size of the £175k world market?
I suspect he's a little out on that. There are c200 cars >£100k for sale on eBay.co.uk - that's used and the UK alone!Mind, that would have been 2002/3 wounldnt it? So before near-free credit.
lambo_xx said:
I was having a conversation with a friend in the pub recently about what we would do if we won Euromillions (I would start my own car company). Anyway, we both agreed that when a small company is making a car you either need to do one of two things. Make a cheap car i.e. what Noble did originally. The m12 was a car that wasn't much more than a M3 yet would keep up with a Ferrari. Or make a very bespoke car like say a Pagani Zonda. A car that although not that much faster than say a Gallardo or 458, has a unique selling point in that it is a truly bespoke car.
Personally I think Noble will fail with the M600. I hope they don’t but I reckon they will. The trouble is, there isn’t much of a unique selling point to it. Yes it’s fast, but to be honest nowadays there isn’t much difference between a car that can do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 2.9 seconds. If the noble could do say 250MPH then it would be a different story but it can’t. It’s not particularly luxurious i.e. like a Zonda.
In my opinion it should have been half the price it is.
I would agree with what to do for a new car company. I would imagine this car will end up like the Ascari - very good, but just not enough history etc. to sell them. It's even worse in some ways, in that there has just been a lot of technically very good cars just released, so these are going to be further up the "must buy" list of people. If it had been a few years ago they might have sold more, due to age of the Gallardo and 430, but now there's just too many other new possibilities to get.Personally I think Noble will fail with the M600. I hope they don’t but I reckon they will. The trouble is, there isn’t much of a unique selling point to it. Yes it’s fast, but to be honest nowadays there isn’t much difference between a car that can do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 2.9 seconds. If the noble could do say 250MPH then it would be a different story but it can’t. It’s not particularly luxurious i.e. like a Zonda.
In my opinion it should have been half the price it is.
I had 2 Nobles (GTO then GTO 3R) & loved them...
For me when Lee Noble split with the financiers the company was finished...
Lee Noble has supposedly been working on a cheaper car but I've heard very little, he is responsible for the success of the early cars & to continue this mark without him involved is madness IMO
For me when Lee Noble split with the financiers the company was finished...
Lee Noble has supposedly been working on a cheaper car but I've heard very little, he is responsible for the success of the early cars & to continue this mark without him involved is madness IMO
A small independent car company relies heavily on its existing customer base to continue to buy it's future cars. There is a reason that the owner of early cars bought a Noble instead of the obvious M3 or 911. They think outside the box. In order for any new Noble to be successful, they need to to re-appeal to the same people who bought the old cars.
Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of people who have deposited for Huayra have already owned or indeed still own a Zonda. That's how it works when you're dealing with such small companies.
I may be wrong but I reckon the people who bought Nobles for £50K-£60K will have neither the means nor the inclination to splash out a quarter of a bar on this one. For that reason, I think Noble have made a mistake.
As others have said, the competition at this level has never been fiercer and there are all ready loads of super cars as quick from established brands at this level..
What made the original cars so great was the performance/handling package at the price point. People thought it would be crap and it was in fact excellent. At this price point, people will expect it to to be brilliant anyway.
It's not a car that's on my radar to buy even though I was vaguely aware of its launch. I've got 2 cars on order currently both of which would be competing with the Noble on price and performance and I wouldn't have considered a Noble over either of these for a second. If I was in the market for a £50K super car killer and that's what the company still made, I would.
Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of people who have deposited for Huayra have already owned or indeed still own a Zonda. That's how it works when you're dealing with such small companies.
I may be wrong but I reckon the people who bought Nobles for £50K-£60K will have neither the means nor the inclination to splash out a quarter of a bar on this one. For that reason, I think Noble have made a mistake.
As others have said, the competition at this level has never been fiercer and there are all ready loads of super cars as quick from established brands at this level..
What made the original cars so great was the performance/handling package at the price point. People thought it would be crap and it was in fact excellent. At this price point, people will expect it to to be brilliant anyway.
It's not a car that's on my radar to buy even though I was vaguely aware of its launch. I've got 2 cars on order currently both of which would be competing with the Noble on price and performance and I wouldn't have considered a Noble over either of these for a second. If I was in the market for a £50K super car killer and that's what the company still made, I would.
It was a great idea and i remember reading the leaked stats at the time about how fast it was and everyone was thinking great, this is going to show a 911 GT3/GT2 a thing or two and will no doubt be cheaper as the last model was 60-80k BUT then came the price............................................................................
Evo,Autocar and most of the motoring press loved the car but they could not justify its price. With the 458 and Mclaren never mind the odd used Scuderia or Gallardo SL. I cant think of how they could possibly sell many cars.
Romans International apparently have one coming in - http://www.romansinternational.com/module/romansIn...
Evo,Autocar and most of the motoring press loved the car but they could not justify its price. With the 458 and Mclaren never mind the odd used Scuderia or Gallardo SL. I cant think of how they could possibly sell many cars.
Romans International apparently have one coming in - http://www.romansinternational.com/module/romansIn...
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Tuesday 1st March 14:11
Never going to happen,,, People with a garage full of ferraris . Porkie & lambos are never putting a noble in the same garage, If you are just interested in 0 /60 by a caterham 7 & leave every thing behind for 50kish,
Still never having the image or thorough breed of the rest or cars its trying to fight
Still never having the image or thorough breed of the rest or cars its trying to fight
Looks like a great machine......but I don't think it will not sell well due to the price tag. What Noble have created, on the face of it, looks to be worth the money, but it is just to much money for a simple car (tech wise) with virtually no pedigree compared to the drect competition.
If I had all the money in the world I'd get one, but it is so far behind the McLaren, 458 and GT2 RS in it's value for money, R&D, desirability and tech stakes it's almost obsolete before it's launch.
I mean come on, on a £200k+ sports car you decide to NOT have ABS and CC Brakes to keep the purists / bank manager happy......what about the othe 98% of people!
It would sell loads at £60 - £80k, but this is £200. Too bad......exciting car.
If I had all the money in the world I'd get one, but it is so far behind the McLaren, 458 and GT2 RS in it's value for money, R&D, desirability and tech stakes it's almost obsolete before it's launch.
I mean come on, on a £200k+ sports car you decide to NOT have ABS and CC Brakes to keep the purists / bank manager happy......what about the othe 98% of people!
It would sell loads at £60 - £80k, but this is £200. Too bad......exciting car.
Fag-packet business plan...
Take off the Vat/ local tax, so say £160k. Deduct dealer margin of another 20% (high, but they'll need a bit of incentive against shifting the other shiny metal), so £130k to Noble. Assume COGS of £50k (?) which leaves £80k gross profit per car. Running costs for the business must be min £160k per month, so break-even is two cars. If they manage to appoint 10 dealers (not sure what markets they're going after - assume western Europe?) that's one order per dealer every 5 months! Assuming that cash-flow is no problem in the first year, surely they can achieve that kind of run-rate? If they can hit one car per dealer every quarter, that's not a bad profit for a lean business. Bugger knows how many beans they've ploughed into this venture (several mill presumably) but it COULD stack-up with a following wind?
The worry is that they hit the market at just the right time with the M12, ie just as TVR was going tits-up, and dealers were queuing at their door... and money was free. Today it must be tougher out there. However, everything we hear says that Noble is well funded, so kept lean it may - just may - pull this off.
Or maybe I've had too much wine
)
Take off the Vat/ local tax, so say £160k. Deduct dealer margin of another 20% (high, but they'll need a bit of incentive against shifting the other shiny metal), so £130k to Noble. Assume COGS of £50k (?) which leaves £80k gross profit per car. Running costs for the business must be min £160k per month, so break-even is two cars. If they manage to appoint 10 dealers (not sure what markets they're going after - assume western Europe?) that's one order per dealer every 5 months! Assuming that cash-flow is no problem in the first year, surely they can achieve that kind of run-rate? If they can hit one car per dealer every quarter, that's not a bad profit for a lean business. Bugger knows how many beans they've ploughed into this venture (several mill presumably) but it COULD stack-up with a following wind?
The worry is that they hit the market at just the right time with the M12, ie just as TVR was going tits-up, and dealers were queuing at their door... and money was free. Today it must be tougher out there. However, everything we hear says that Noble is well funded, so kept lean it may - just may - pull this off.
Or maybe I've had too much wine
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