Theoretical value of an LS Cerb?
Discussion
Reading the posts about people wanting to install an LSx engine in a Cerb, I began to wonder what impact it would have on the resale value were you to carry out such a mod.
I guess the owners of these Cerbs will pipe up and say they wouldn't sell it, but in theory what would it be worth? More than the sum of its costs? More or less than a good standard car?
What do you think? and I am talking about at least a semi-proffessinal install, not a poorly executed DIY job.
GG
I guess the owners of these Cerbs will pipe up and say they wouldn't sell it, but in theory what would it be worth? More than the sum of its costs? More or less than a good standard car?
What do you think? and I am talking about at least a semi-proffessinal install, not a poorly executed DIY job.
GG
Edited by GG33 on Wednesday 16th March 12:38
Whats a semi-professional install?
I think the £'s question depends on where you are starting from and what you spend on the project?
If you blow up your AJP and have a potential bill of £7K to fix it or a £10K LSn install then you MIGHT end up with a higher resale/margin than a comparable AJP cerb at the end. A S6 cerb might be an even better argument?
If you are taking a good engine out and getting £2K for it and then spending £10K on the LSn then the maths might not be so good.
It also depends how much you spend on the LSn project. If you start going to 15K plus then the pay back might not be so great.
In the long run originality is generally sought after and demands a premium?
Ulitmately you need to work your own numbers out based on what your car is worth, what you will spend, what it might of cost if an JAP repair and what it will be worth at the end etc.
I think a comparable early cerb with an LSn might be worth as much as 100% more than a leggy AJP whereas one of the last cerbs might be worth less with an LSn install than a 'perfect' AJP car.
The LSn Sags are valued by some as far in excess of the S6 cars albeit I havent seen one sell yet for such money but saying that Sags values are already high and continue to rise...?
Am sure none of these opinions make any sense and others will totally disagree!?
I think the £'s question depends on where you are starting from and what you spend on the project?
If you blow up your AJP and have a potential bill of £7K to fix it or a £10K LSn install then you MIGHT end up with a higher resale/margin than a comparable AJP cerb at the end. A S6 cerb might be an even better argument?
If you are taking a good engine out and getting £2K for it and then spending £10K on the LSn then the maths might not be so good.
It also depends how much you spend on the LSn project. If you start going to 15K plus then the pay back might not be so great.
In the long run originality is generally sought after and demands a premium?
Ulitmately you need to work your own numbers out based on what your car is worth, what you will spend, what it might of cost if an JAP repair and what it will be worth at the end etc.
I think a comparable early cerb with an LSn might be worth as much as 100% more than a leggy AJP whereas one of the last cerbs might be worth less with an LSn install than a 'perfect' AJP car.
The LSn Sags are valued by some as far in excess of the S6 cars albeit I havent seen one sell yet for such money but saying that Sags values are already high and continue to rise...?
Am sure none of these opinions make any sense and others will totally disagree!?
Thanks for your considered reply....What I am really asking is: what do owners and prospective owners think a well prepared LS Cerb would be worth if one came up for sale? Especially as prices now seem to be firming up.
As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
GG33 said:
Thanks for your considered reply....What I am really asking is: what do owners and prospective owners think a well prepared LS Cerb would be worth if one came up for sale? Especially as prices now seem to be firming up.
As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
Per my previous I think an early Cerb is worth £10K and the same car with a v good * LS conversion might be worth £20K. The work to achieve this might be up to £15K though. As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
A v late cerb in perfect/excellent condition is worth £25K. The same car with a v good conversion would be worth the same or even less in my book.
- A v good conversion in my book = very tidy install, 450 bhp plus, good LS engine (ie not some greasey 2nd hand high miler), a stack of receipts for it, appropriate gear box to handle the power....
GG33 said:
Thanks for your considered reply....What I am really asking is: what do owners and prospective owners think a well prepared LS Cerb would be worth if one came up for sale? Especially as prices now seem to be firming up.
As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
To me they would not be worth as much, I would rather spend the money on a good AJP rebuild. I purchased a british car and would like to keep it that way. But at the end of the day this is only my opinion I dont care if the LS engine is better faster etc it is still a American lump. Does the Cerb not loose some of its character with an LS engine in?As an afterthought.....would you buy a Cerb with an LS install? (if done to a good standard)
GG
PaulK said:
Does the Cerb not loose some of its character with an LS engine in?
To my mind, anyone buying a V8 Cerb is probably buying it for the AJP as much as anything (and I speak from recent experience). I'm not saying an LS Cerb is necessarily less desirable to everyone, but you're probably looking at a different market. Try asking on the Yank forum?
Nice reply from Gazzab.
The first LS install I knew of was John Ellisons LS6 'Purple Monster' Chimaera back in 2005. Conversion cost was about 10k and I think he considered the car to be worth around 20k afterwards but then no-one had ever sold on a LS conversion before. I believe he did sell it but I don't know for how much.
It was this car which led me to say that if my '97 4.2 AJP engine ever needed major work I would swap it out for a Chevy unit. In 2008 my AJP could have had a top end rebuild only but it would have made more sense to do a complete rebuild so it was time to follow my conviction that a LS motor was the way to go.
Of course I'm not considering selling it but I have thought about it's worth now. I think they are worth about the cost of their conversion plus the value of the car if it had a knackered engine. Only when someone sells one will we know but I think there are people out there who like the Cerbera but don't trust the reliability and would go 'route 1' to buy an LS Cerb ready done for the price instead of having to get one done themselves.
However, I would like to see good examples of the Cerbera kept original or near to original because as their rarity increases so will their value. Ultimately, they will be worth more in the future but if they do become that rare and valuable then people will be restoring LS cars to original condition.
Most Cerberas are in some sort of modified state and if a person would like a non LS then they would look through the ads and make their choice. If a person wanted a LS version then either wait for one to come up at 'said price', buy a Cerb and get the conversion done yourself at 'x' cost or if you're impatient, offer A LOT of money and see if an owner will sell. That is what they're worth.
Topcats Racing conversion.
The first LS install I knew of was John Ellisons LS6 'Purple Monster' Chimaera back in 2005. Conversion cost was about 10k and I think he considered the car to be worth around 20k afterwards but then no-one had ever sold on a LS conversion before. I believe he did sell it but I don't know for how much.
It was this car which led me to say that if my '97 4.2 AJP engine ever needed major work I would swap it out for a Chevy unit. In 2008 my AJP could have had a top end rebuild only but it would have made more sense to do a complete rebuild so it was time to follow my conviction that a LS motor was the way to go.
Of course I'm not considering selling it but I have thought about it's worth now. I think they are worth about the cost of their conversion plus the value of the car if it had a knackered engine. Only when someone sells one will we know but I think there are people out there who like the Cerbera but don't trust the reliability and would go 'route 1' to buy an LS Cerb ready done for the price instead of having to get one done themselves.
However, I would like to see good examples of the Cerbera kept original or near to original because as their rarity increases so will their value. Ultimately, they will be worth more in the future but if they do become that rare and valuable then people will be restoring LS cars to original condition.
Most Cerberas are in some sort of modified state and if a person would like a non LS then they would look through the ads and make their choice. If a person wanted a LS version then either wait for one to come up at 'said price', buy a Cerb and get the conversion done yourself at 'x' cost or if you're impatient, offer A LOT of money and see if an owner will sell. That is what they're worth.
Topcats Racing conversion.
Edited by ajp70 on Wednesday 16th March 16:23
Depends entirely on the conversion. Some will mean the car has a value well below an original and others could lead to a valuation above.
If you were going to buy a Tiv with an LS conversion I don't think any normal person would pay a premium and expect a substantial discount if the conversion is not fully documented and hasn't been carried out by a firm that is openly recognised as being very good at what they do.
Ultimately mods don't really add value to a car, certainly not usually anywhere near the sum of their parts and bad mods will destroy value. We've all had a good laugh at that orange monstrosity up in Newcastle. You'd have to be a very special kid to bid anywhere near the price of a normal Tuscan for that one. Yet you look at something like BlackiePauls and you would argue that this would easily out sell a standard Sag due to the quality of the work. Would it get back the money spent on it? I doubt it.
Over the long term originality is where value retention lies. I wouldn't think anyone would mod a car expecting it to be worth more for the most part, but because it is a personal thing that they want to do for themselves etc.
If you were going to buy a Tiv with an LS conversion I don't think any normal person would pay a premium and expect a substantial discount if the conversion is not fully documented and hasn't been carried out by a firm that is openly recognised as being very good at what they do.
Ultimately mods don't really add value to a car, certainly not usually anywhere near the sum of their parts and bad mods will destroy value. We've all had a good laugh at that orange monstrosity up in Newcastle. You'd have to be a very special kid to bid anywhere near the price of a normal Tuscan for that one. Yet you look at something like BlackiePauls and you would argue that this would easily out sell a standard Sag due to the quality of the work. Would it get back the money spent on it? I doubt it.
Over the long term originality is where value retention lies. I wouldn't think anyone would mod a car expecting it to be worth more for the most part, but because it is a personal thing that they want to do for themselves etc.
To me a Cerb with a LS in isn't a TVR its a kit car. I don't mean that in a bad way as I like kit cars. There are some LS engined cars on this forum with Cerb bodies that would be an absolute hoot to drive.
I think you are therefore looking at two totally different markets as said above.
I wouldn't be able to understand the psychi of anyone who was trying to decide which one they wanted, because it would be like trying to choose between an apple and a jumbo jet
I suppose what I mean is that anyone who wanted to buy a TVR wouldn't buy a chevy engined one, and anyone wanting a full power LS engined car probably wouldn't come to a TVR forum?
I think you are therefore looking at two totally different markets as said above.
I wouldn't be able to understand the psychi of anyone who was trying to decide which one they wanted, because it would be like trying to choose between an apple and a jumbo jet
I suppose what I mean is that anyone who wanted to buy a TVR wouldn't buy a chevy engined one, and anyone wanting a full power LS engined car probably wouldn't come to a TVR forum?
julian64 said:
To me a Cerb with a LS in isn't a TVR its a kit car. I don't mean that in a bad way as I like kit cars. There are some LS engined cars on this forum with Cerb bodies that would be an absolute hoot to drive.
I think you are therefore looking at two totally different markets as said above.
I wouldn't be able to understand the psychi of anyone who was trying to decide which one they wanted, because it would be like trying to choose between an apple and a jumbo jet
I suppose what I mean is that anyone who wanted to buy a TVR wouldn't buy a chevy engined one, and anyone wanting a full power LS engined car probably wouldn't come to a TVR forum?
It can't possibly be a kit car, as it isn't a kit is it? It's just the wrong term to use in this exampleI think you are therefore looking at two totally different markets as said above.
I wouldn't be able to understand the psychi of anyone who was trying to decide which one they wanted, because it would be like trying to choose between an apple and a jumbo jet
I suppose what I mean is that anyone who wanted to buy a TVR wouldn't buy a chevy engined one, and anyone wanting a full power LS engined car probably wouldn't come to a TVR forum?
It's a TVR that was built in the TVR factory and is a TVR regardless of the engine in it.
It's simply a TVR with a non standard engine. It's still a TVR.
Put a Lexus or Chevvy engine in a Range Rover Classic and it's still a Range Rover Classic.
I'm sure there are people who would buy a converted TVR. There is a core of people who just want a TVR and want a v8. They are obviously wrong (;)) but they are out there.
My views on this are probably well known, some people agree and others don't.
What makes the Cerbera a very special car is the AJPV8. The S6 engine is still a Cerbera, it's still a stonking good car, but the S6 engine was also fitted to other TVR's. The AJPV8 was only fitted to the Cerbera, it is the heart of the car, and thats what makes it a very special car. No other car in the world has the AJPV8 fitted to it.
There are some cars in which the Engine is the heart of the Car. Like a Ferrari or a Porsche. Fit an LS engine to one of those, and you no longer have a Ferrari or a Porsche. it is the ENGINE that makes the car. The Honda VTEC engines fitted to the Type R and the S2000 define the charcteristics of those cars, it is the ENGINE that makes them special, not the 0-60 figures, the ENGINE. If some people can't see that, then fine, they just don't get it.
If I fitted a BMW Diesel engine to my Cerbera would it still be a Cerbera? Shall I come on here and boast that I now have the most economical Cerbera in the World? It's not a Cerbera is it.
An AJPV8 is a very special engine, and if you are a TVR Cerbera enthusiast, who has a passion for TVR Cerbera's, then you will never ,ever put an LS Lump in. If you do, then you are NOT a TVR Cerbera enthusiast. We love the hard edged feel of the engine, the way it revs, the noise, the pops n bangs, and the fact that we own a very special British car, with a unique TVR engine - it's special.
If you are an LS enthusiast, who loves speed and loves power, and just want a nice looking car to drop the engine into, then the Cerbera is one of the prettiest and capable cars that you can choose to convert, but don't go round boasting that you have the fastest Cerbera in the world, because you haven't.
Nothing wrong with either option, and the more LS conversions there are, then the more our AJPV8 engined cars will increase in scarcity, and it is scarcity that makes a car special.
What makes the Cerbera a very special car is the AJPV8. The S6 engine is still a Cerbera, it's still a stonking good car, but the S6 engine was also fitted to other TVR's. The AJPV8 was only fitted to the Cerbera, it is the heart of the car, and thats what makes it a very special car. No other car in the world has the AJPV8 fitted to it.
There are some cars in which the Engine is the heart of the Car. Like a Ferrari or a Porsche. Fit an LS engine to one of those, and you no longer have a Ferrari or a Porsche. it is the ENGINE that makes the car. The Honda VTEC engines fitted to the Type R and the S2000 define the charcteristics of those cars, it is the ENGINE that makes them special, not the 0-60 figures, the ENGINE. If some people can't see that, then fine, they just don't get it.
If I fitted a BMW Diesel engine to my Cerbera would it still be a Cerbera? Shall I come on here and boast that I now have the most economical Cerbera in the World? It's not a Cerbera is it.
An AJPV8 is a very special engine, and if you are a TVR Cerbera enthusiast, who has a passion for TVR Cerbera's, then you will never ,ever put an LS Lump in. If you do, then you are NOT a TVR Cerbera enthusiast. We love the hard edged feel of the engine, the way it revs, the noise, the pops n bangs, and the fact that we own a very special British car, with a unique TVR engine - it's special.
If you are an LS enthusiast, who loves speed and loves power, and just want a nice looking car to drop the engine into, then the Cerbera is one of the prettiest and capable cars that you can choose to convert, but don't go round boasting that you have the fastest Cerbera in the world, because you haven't.
Nothing wrong with either option, and the more LS conversions there are, then the more our AJPV8 engined cars will increase in scarcity, and it is scarcity that makes a car special.
It's all down to personal opinions, which is why some are fine with an LS and some not.
For me, a TVR Cerbera with an AJP engine is special (unique even) and to change to an American V8 just doesn't do it for me.
If I wanted a V8 muscle car I would have bought a Corvette, I didn't I wanted a piece of British motoring history and bought a 4.5 AJP Cerbera and I'm very happy with it.
For me, a TVR Cerbera with an AJP engine is special (unique even) and to change to an American V8 just doesn't do it for me.
If I wanted a V8 muscle car I would have bought a Corvette, I didn't I wanted a piece of British motoring history and bought a 4.5 AJP Cerbera and I'm very happy with it.
Gazzab said:
Can we focus on the Market value and not the morality ;-)
Unless there is a 'brand' involved then they will be worth less than an unfettled car. That is what history alludes to As time progresses then originality plays the strongest role and at some point in the future this effect surpasses condition.
A bad engine conversion will decimate a cars value.
A good conversion will define it's own specialist market. But it's only if that conversion has a brand that it could surpass the value of a high quality original car.
The debate really is where are we at on the timeline. I would hazard that we are at the end of phase one and people who will pay up for totally original cars are appearing.
1Dog74 said:
Gazzab said:
Can we focus on the Market value and not the morality ;-)
Fair point.Have we got any benchamrks, I haven't seen an LS Cerbera's for sale?
I would expect it to be worth about the same as 4.5 same year condition etc. I can't see many paying more than that.
In the future, if the Cerb ever achieved classic status the value of the AJP8 endined version would be substantially more than the LS varient. I think that is far less speculative.
julian64 said:
I would agree, but you have to take into account that is a big loss for someone who has paid out for a conversion, so they may not agree.
In the future, if the Cerb ever achieved classic status the value of the AJP8 endined version would be substantially more than the LS varient. I think that is far less speculative.
Interestingly, my understanding is that a large number of owners use financing to buy their cars. As such, would you be able to obtain finance on a car modified in such a way? In the future, if the Cerb ever achieved classic status the value of the AJP8 endined version would be substantially more than the LS varient. I think that is far less speculative.
julian64 said:
I would agree, but you have to take into account that is a big loss for someone who has paid out for a conversion, so they may not agree.
In the future, if the Cerb ever achieved classic status the value of the AJP8 endined version would be substantially more than the LS varient. I think that is far less speculative.
Interestingly, my understanding is that a large number of owners use financing to buy their cars. As such, would you be able to obtain finance on a car modified in such a way? In the future, if the Cerb ever achieved classic status the value of the AJP8 endined version would be substantially more than the LS varient. I think that is far less speculative.
Now, I can see LS engined Cerberas commanding a premium, more so if they're as well developed as some of the cars we've seen here. Enough to cover the conversion price? Perhaps, to someone who doesnt want the hassle of going through it yes. Would one be more valuable currently than a recently upgraded 4.7litre AJP - I am not so convinced. Such a car could be considered an evolution of the Cerbera, rather than heavily modified, and I suspect worth more than a compareable LS as a result.
I agree with the statement that in the (possibly not too) distant future the AJP will be the more desireable option, but I fear that may be a long way off. There is a Ferrari 288GTO out there with a chevy engine, massively faster than a normal one - developed for straight line stuff. Would I have it instead of an original one (ignoring the cost either higher or lower) - not a chance. I dont think any F40's are out there with different engines, but again, I'd want it original (engine wise atleast.) These are very special cars, with an engine shared only by a race car series that helped develop them. There are fewer around than Ferrari F40's and they're still considered f'kin fast even now, 15 years+ after they were originally designed.
I disagree that non-AJP/S6 Cerberas are 'kit cars' - they are simply heavily modified cars. I can see the appeal and I can see a place for them. I would much rather a Cerbera was saved than broken, even if it ended up being powered by a different engine. What we have seen is people pushing the envelope of Cerbera development beyond the factory - who knows whether they may have ended up that route anyway. In Brummmies car we have a Cerbera that pushes the outright performance beyond what is currently possible with the AJP8. With BoostedCerb's there is a fully OBD2 compliant Cerbera out there!! It truly appears to be what I would expect a factory LS Cerbera to be made like - They have thier place.
I would like to see the numbers of LS transplants slow/eventually halted eventually, but for the moment there must be 50-80 AJP's to every LS Cerbera out there. The conversions so far only seem to help provide more AJP parts and keep a few more Cerberas on the roads albeit under different power. I suspect when thier true values are realised, all Cerberas will be priced out of the economic conversion price point anyway for most, especially if as some of us predict, the AJP commands a premium.
Just my thoughts.
I agree with the statement that in the (possibly not too) distant future the AJP will be the more desireable option, but I fear that may be a long way off. There is a Ferrari 288GTO out there with a chevy engine, massively faster than a normal one - developed for straight line stuff. Would I have it instead of an original one (ignoring the cost either higher or lower) - not a chance. I dont think any F40's are out there with different engines, but again, I'd want it original (engine wise atleast.) These are very special cars, with an engine shared only by a race car series that helped develop them. There are fewer around than Ferrari F40's and they're still considered f'kin fast even now, 15 years+ after they were originally designed.
I disagree that non-AJP/S6 Cerberas are 'kit cars' - they are simply heavily modified cars. I can see the appeal and I can see a place for them. I would much rather a Cerbera was saved than broken, even if it ended up being powered by a different engine. What we have seen is people pushing the envelope of Cerbera development beyond the factory - who knows whether they may have ended up that route anyway. In Brummmies car we have a Cerbera that pushes the outright performance beyond what is currently possible with the AJP8. With BoostedCerb's there is a fully OBD2 compliant Cerbera out there!! It truly appears to be what I would expect a factory LS Cerbera to be made like - They have thier place.
I would like to see the numbers of LS transplants slow/eventually halted eventually, but for the moment there must be 50-80 AJP's to every LS Cerbera out there. The conversions so far only seem to help provide more AJP parts and keep a few more Cerberas on the roads albeit under different power. I suspect when thier true values are realised, all Cerberas will be priced out of the economic conversion price point anyway for most, especially if as some of us predict, the AJP commands a premium.
Just my thoughts.
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