Some questions about builders please
Discussion
Im having an extension done and wanted a bit of advice on a few things.
In no particular order:
1)If a builder has public liability insurance- if the house falls to pieces after they have gone, will the insurance pay you? If so-is this still the case if the builder subsequently goes bust i.e. can you go directly to thier insurer?
2)With a local builder type- what is normal for payments? Is it staged, or do you pay x amount in advance for materials etc?
3)How do you know whether the builder is doing a decent job?
4)Im sure Ill have more questions but are there any other potential pitfalls to look out for?
In no particular order:
1)If a builder has public liability insurance- if the house falls to pieces after they have gone, will the insurance pay you? If so-is this still the case if the builder subsequently goes bust i.e. can you go directly to thier insurer?
2)With a local builder type- what is normal for payments? Is it staged, or do you pay x amount in advance for materials etc?
3)How do you know whether the builder is doing a decent job?
4)Im sure Ill have more questions but are there any other potential pitfalls to look out for?
blindswelledrat said:
Im having an extension done and wanted a bit of advice on a few things.
In no particular order:
1)If a builder has public liability insurance- if the house falls to pieces after they have gone, will the insurance pay you? If so-is this still the case if the builder subsequently goes bust i.e. can you go directly to thier insurer? IN A WORD NO, PUBLIC LIABILITY IS TO PROTECT AGAINST ACCIDENTS/DAMAGE CAUSED AND NOT POOR WORKMANSHIP.
2)With a local builder type- what is normal for payments? Is it staged, or do you pay x amount in advance for materials etc? EXPECT STAGED PAYMENTS WITH A LUMP LEFT AT THE END, ITS GOT TO BE FAIR FOR EVERYONE AND IMPORTANTLY THERE MUST BE AN INCENTIVE FOT THE BUILDER TO NOT DO A RUNNER BEFORE THINGS ARE FINISHED.
3)How do you know whether the builder is doing a decent job? THIS ONE IS VERY HARD, YOU NEED TO TRY AND STUDY THE INTERNET FOR INFORMATION ON HOW THE JOB IS BEING DONE AND THEN CROSS REFERENCE WITH THE BUILDER, YOU NEED TO SEE PAST WORK, RECOMENDATION IS GOOD BUT NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL, JUST BECAUSE MATEY IS HAPPY DOESNT MEAN THE JOB IS ALWAYS GOOD. DOES HIS WORK LOOK WELL EXECUTED? ATTENTION TO DETAIL? VERY VERY IMPORTANT, NO ATTENTION TO DETAIL WOULD WORRY ME.A GOOD TRADESMAN WILL NOT MIND YOU GRILLING HIM, I DON'T BECAUSE I KNOW I AM TELLING THE TRUTH AND DOING THINGS RIGHT, SOMEONE WHO STARTS DISHING OUT THE OLD 'I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 300 YEARS ,IF YA DONT TRUST ME THEN GET SOMEONE ELSE' NEEDS TO BE AVOIDED LIKE AIDS.
4)Im sure Ill have more questions but are there any other potential pitfalls to look out for?
ABOVE ALL YOU NEED TO TRUST AND FEEL CONFIDENT WITH THE GUY, IF ITS TOO CHEAP THEN ITS TOO CHEAP FOR A REASON, DON'T BELIEVE ALL THIS 'WERE IN A RECESSION' bIn no particular order:
1)If a builder has public liability insurance- if the house falls to pieces after they have gone, will the insurance pay you? If so-is this still the case if the builder subsequently goes bust i.e. can you go directly to thier insurer? IN A WORD NO, PUBLIC LIABILITY IS TO PROTECT AGAINST ACCIDENTS/DAMAGE CAUSED AND NOT POOR WORKMANSHIP.
2)With a local builder type- what is normal for payments? Is it staged, or do you pay x amount in advance for materials etc? EXPECT STAGED PAYMENTS WITH A LUMP LEFT AT THE END, ITS GOT TO BE FAIR FOR EVERYONE AND IMPORTANTLY THERE MUST BE AN INCENTIVE FOT THE BUILDER TO NOT DO A RUNNER BEFORE THINGS ARE FINISHED.
3)How do you know whether the builder is doing a decent job? THIS ONE IS VERY HARD, YOU NEED TO TRY AND STUDY THE INTERNET FOR INFORMATION ON HOW THE JOB IS BEING DONE AND THEN CROSS REFERENCE WITH THE BUILDER, YOU NEED TO SEE PAST WORK, RECOMENDATION IS GOOD BUT NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL, JUST BECAUSE MATEY IS HAPPY DOESNT MEAN THE JOB IS ALWAYS GOOD. DOES HIS WORK LOOK WELL EXECUTED? ATTENTION TO DETAIL? VERY VERY IMPORTANT, NO ATTENTION TO DETAIL WOULD WORRY ME.A GOOD TRADESMAN WILL NOT MIND YOU GRILLING HIM, I DON'T BECAUSE I KNOW I AM TELLING THE TRUTH AND DOING THINGS RIGHT, SOMEONE WHO STARTS DISHING OUT THE OLD 'I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 300 YEARS ,IF YA DONT TRUST ME THEN GET SOMEONE ELSE' NEEDS TO BE AVOIDED LIKE AIDS.
4)Im sure Ill have more questions but are there any other potential pitfalls to look out for?
kS, IF ITS REALLY CHEAP THEY ARE CUTTING CORNERS SOMEWHERE, NO ONE IS GOING TO WORK FOR FREE OR EVEN IN SOME CASES PAY YOU TO DO YOUR EXTENSION. CANT THINK OF MUCH ELSE BUT HTH
Cheers M3.
Im pretty confident with the builder Im going to use. I have several recommendations from people I know.
I just cant quite get my head around forking out such a massive amount of money on something I havent got a clue about myself and whether the work could be rendered worthless. Makes me nervous
Im pretty confident with the builder Im going to use. I have several recommendations from people I know.
I just cant quite get my head around forking out such a massive amount of money on something I havent got a clue about myself and whether the work could be rendered worthless. Makes me nervous
From my recent extension I'd answer as follows:
1) No. Once they're finished, you have no warranty, unless you pay extra for a one. It may be a year, or as much as ten years, but they're expensive IMO.
However, Planning/Building Control will send control officers to check the work at each major milestone to make sure it's done properly. You're going to pay them lots of money, and it turns out they're there to help you, so if you have any doubts, give them a call.
2) Don't pay anything in advance, reputable builders work on staged payments AFTER each stage is completed. e.g. foundations = £x, walls = £x, roof = £x etc.
Make sure you have a clear payment plan at the beginning, and make sure each invoice shows the work being paid for. If a builder tells you times are hard and he needs an advance, I'd say that's even more reason not to trust them.
3) A personal recommendation is best, failing that go and talk to people who've recently had work done. Do an internet search to see if anyone's written about them, maybe go to your local planning office and see if you can have a few minutes chat with them about potential builders. Most importantly, look into their eyes and use your gut feeling, there will be unexpected changes during the project and you need to be able to negotiate whilst retaining mutual trust.
In my experience, the quality of the builder's work was fantastic, but the plumbing and electrics were more difficult. It's very difficult to make up your mind about the electrics before the build, but you need to get everything in before the plasterers arrive if you want to avoid extra expense and delays.
But the good news (this was a 180 degree change for me) is that it's regulated. Whereas the plumbers can do almost anything they want to, and there's no incentive for them to make it tidy, IMO they just want to get something in and walk away. It's not like the builder's plumber is going to get repeat business from you. Maybe that's just my experience, but I'd suggest you consider using your own plumber if you know a good one, and spending plenty of time planning you plumbing and electrics before the project starts.
1) No. Once they're finished, you have no warranty, unless you pay extra for a one. It may be a year, or as much as ten years, but they're expensive IMO.
However, Planning/Building Control will send control officers to check the work at each major milestone to make sure it's done properly. You're going to pay them lots of money, and it turns out they're there to help you, so if you have any doubts, give them a call.
2) Don't pay anything in advance, reputable builders work on staged payments AFTER each stage is completed. e.g. foundations = £x, walls = £x, roof = £x etc.
Make sure you have a clear payment plan at the beginning, and make sure each invoice shows the work being paid for. If a builder tells you times are hard and he needs an advance, I'd say that's even more reason not to trust them.
3) A personal recommendation is best, failing that go and talk to people who've recently had work done. Do an internet search to see if anyone's written about them, maybe go to your local planning office and see if you can have a few minutes chat with them about potential builders. Most importantly, look into their eyes and use your gut feeling, there will be unexpected changes during the project and you need to be able to negotiate whilst retaining mutual trust.
In my experience, the quality of the builder's work was fantastic, but the plumbing and electrics were more difficult. It's very difficult to make up your mind about the electrics before the build, but you need to get everything in before the plasterers arrive if you want to avoid extra expense and delays.
But the good news (this was a 180 degree change for me) is that it's regulated. Whereas the plumbers can do almost anything they want to, and there's no incentive for them to make it tidy, IMO they just want to get something in and walk away. It's not like the builder's plumber is going to get repeat business from you. Maybe that's just my experience, but I'd suggest you consider using your own plumber if you know a good one, and spending plenty of time planning you plumbing and electrics before the project starts.
-Pete- said:
From my recent extension I'd answer as follows:
1) No. Once they're finished, you have no warranty, unless you pay extra for a one. It may be a year, or as much as ten years, but they're expensive IMO.
However, Planning/Building Control will send control officers to check the work at each major milestone to make sure it's done properly. You're going to pay them lots of money, and it turns out they're there to help you, so if you have any doubts, give them a call.
2) Don't pay anything in advance, reputable builders work on staged payments AFTER each stage is completed. e.g. foundations = £x, walls = £x, roof = £x etc.
Make sure you have a clear payment plan at the beginning, and make sure each invoice shows the work being paid for. If a builder tells you times are hard and he needs an advance, I'd say that's even more reason not to trust them.
3) A personal recommendation is best, failing that go and talk to people who've recently had work done. Do an internet search to see if anyone's written about them, maybe go to your local planning office and see if you can have a few minutes chat with them about potential builders. Most importantly, look into their eyes and use your gut feeling, there will be unexpected changes during the project and you need to be able to negotiate whilst retaining mutual trust.
In my experience, the quality of the builder's work was fantastic, but the plumbing and electrics were more difficult. It's very difficult to make up your mind about the electrics before the build, but you need to get everything in before the plasterers arrive if you want to avoid extra expense and delays.
But the good news (this was a 180 degree change for me) is that it's regulated. Whereas the plumbers can do almost anything they want to, and there's no incentive for them to make it tidy, IMO they just want to get something in and walk away. It's not like the builder's plumber is going to get repeat business from you. Maybe that's just my experience, but I'd suggest you consider using your own plumber if you know a good one, and spending plenty of time planning you plumbing and electrics before the project starts.
Who is/are building control and how can they help? Can you expand on that a bit?1) No. Once they're finished, you have no warranty, unless you pay extra for a one. It may be a year, or as much as ten years, but they're expensive IMO.
However, Planning/Building Control will send control officers to check the work at each major milestone to make sure it's done properly. You're going to pay them lots of money, and it turns out they're there to help you, so if you have any doubts, give them a call.
2) Don't pay anything in advance, reputable builders work on staged payments AFTER each stage is completed. e.g. foundations = £x, walls = £x, roof = £x etc.
Make sure you have a clear payment plan at the beginning, and make sure each invoice shows the work being paid for. If a builder tells you times are hard and he needs an advance, I'd say that's even more reason not to trust them.
3) A personal recommendation is best, failing that go and talk to people who've recently had work done. Do an internet search to see if anyone's written about them, maybe go to your local planning office and see if you can have a few minutes chat with them about potential builders. Most importantly, look into their eyes and use your gut feeling, there will be unexpected changes during the project and you need to be able to negotiate whilst retaining mutual trust.
In my experience, the quality of the builder's work was fantastic, but the plumbing and electrics were more difficult. It's very difficult to make up your mind about the electrics before the build, but you need to get everything in before the plasterers arrive if you want to avoid extra expense and delays.
But the good news (this was a 180 degree change for me) is that it's regulated. Whereas the plumbers can do almost anything they want to, and there's no incentive for them to make it tidy, IMO they just want to get something in and walk away. It's not like the builder's plumber is going to get repeat business from you. Maybe that's just my experience, but I'd suggest you consider using your own plumber if you know a good one, and spending plenty of time planning you plumbing and electrics before the project starts.
As regards the planning my own building electrics etc this brings me on to another question I had. I don't really want to have anything whatsoever to do with the work. Am I being naive in thinking that Ive paid a builder to do a job so he must do it. My inupt is irrelevant?
I had planned to bung a friends dad who was a builder for years a few quid to pop in once a week and check that the work/value is up to scratch etc. DO you reckon this will do?
for such a large job, I'd recommend drawing up a contract detailing the work, if its a fixed price build, payment dates etc. including what happens in case of overruns, snagging and suchlike. a quick Google will reveal more. you're in london aren't you? I'd have thought small firms there will be more used to contracts than in the provinces.
i'd also recommend you get the latest version (think its on the 8th now) of this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Housebuilders-Bible-Inside...
which will give you an idea of construction methods & costs. it's very detailed but also accessible to us non-builders. I was going to suggest posting you my copy but the pricing will be 4-5yrs out of date.
i'd also recommend you get the latest version (think its on the 8th now) of this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Housebuilders-Bible-Inside...
which will give you an idea of construction methods & costs. it's very detailed but also accessible to us non-builders. I was going to suggest posting you my copy but the pricing will be 4-5yrs out of date.
blindswelledrat said:
Who is/are building control and how can they help? Can you expand on that a bit?
The local council provide this service, whether you want it or not. I was quite sceptical, but turned out they were there to help me.blindswelledrat said:
As regards the planning my own building electrics etc this brings me on to another question I had. I don't really want to have anything whatsoever to do with the work. Am I being naive in thinking that Ive paid a builder to do a job so he must do it. My inupt is irrelevant?
Well you're either going to have to take an interest yourself, or find someone you trust to get it right for you. The builder's interests are quite different to your own, he wants your money and then move to the next job. So I think you need to take a personal interest, or risk a massive disappointment/cost-overrun.blindswelledrat said:
I had planned to bung a friends dad who was a builder for years a few quid to pop in once a week and check that the work/value is up to scratch etc. DO you reckon this will do?
I think that could work, but like all business transactions you shouldn't underestimate a) the details of the spec and builders' quotes and b) the face-to-face relationship you have with your builder. Be very specific about what you want, otherwise assumptions will be made.A slightly less miserable post than usual op!!
The insurance you mention won't vover you if the house falls in, no, but building control may be of use.
They will send a chap over to inspect various stages of the work to ensure they have been done correctly. You can then get insured with their reports in a normal manner.
Ref who to use??? A tricky question really, as others have said reccomendation is the best bet- someone who has used them and is happy is ideal.
Find someone you are happy with (a shagged out transit van is not what you want your builder to drive to quote work)
Ref payments-
Well, deal with it how you can.anyone wanting cash up front for materials= dodgy. A decent builder should have trade accounts to deal with materials.
Agree stage payments by all means. It keeps them keen to do the job. Be time specific if you want to, but remember delays such as wet weather and so are unavoidable, and you are better off with the job being done right once than rushing through poor weather etc.
You say you are keen to design your own electrics? Doing a layout is not difficult at all- you decide where sockets, switches and the like goes, your builder and building regs takes care of the rest.
Plans needn't bearchitect designed for small works- again, if you are confident in your builder he should help with any queries.
Ref finishing- go and look around a showhome. It gives an idea of what is achievable, or at least an aiming point.
Not sure what your work entails, but feel free to pm with any questions whatsoever- might take 24 hours to get back to you because of the time difference, but I willg get back to you.
The insurance you mention won't vover you if the house falls in, no, but building control may be of use.
They will send a chap over to inspect various stages of the work to ensure they have been done correctly. You can then get insured with their reports in a normal manner.
Ref who to use??? A tricky question really, as others have said reccomendation is the best bet- someone who has used them and is happy is ideal.
Find someone you are happy with (a shagged out transit van is not what you want your builder to drive to quote work)
Ref payments-
Well, deal with it how you can.anyone wanting cash up front for materials= dodgy. A decent builder should have trade accounts to deal with materials.
Agree stage payments by all means. It keeps them keen to do the job. Be time specific if you want to, but remember delays such as wet weather and so are unavoidable, and you are better off with the job being done right once than rushing through poor weather etc.
You say you are keen to design your own electrics? Doing a layout is not difficult at all- you decide where sockets, switches and the like goes, your builder and building regs takes care of the rest.
Plans needn't bearchitect designed for small works- again, if you are confident in your builder he should help with any queries.
Ref finishing- go and look around a showhome. It gives an idea of what is achievable, or at least an aiming point.
Not sure what your work entails, but feel free to pm with any questions whatsoever- might take 24 hours to get back to you because of the time difference, but I willg get back to you.
Emsman said:
A Helpful stuff.
Thanks a lot. Might well take you up on that.For the time being IM only meeting the builder and he is booked up for 4 months (only does one job at a time) thus it wont be for 3 or 4 months. I just needed some information for when I meet him so when he makes proposals for starting the job I know what is reasonable etc.
Don't pay anything up front, no decent builder would ask (mine didn't even bother asking for anything until we were 60% complete)
As has been said, building control are a decent lot, and are there to see that it get built IAW building regs. You will not get aproval in the first place if its not a sound design.
When you get quotes, ask for references, my builder gave the local MP and all the local schools
When you think you have a builder in mind ask your building inspector if he has seen/approved any of his previous work.
We were very lucky, our builder did all the liason with the BI, to the point where I thought he might be pulling a fast one (because I'd never seen or spoke to him). When I called the BI to check he told me the my builder was trusworth and well known to him, and there was nothing to worry about. He had done all the inspections needed to that point, and my builder would know exactly what he wanted to see and when.
As has been said, building control are a decent lot, and are there to see that it get built IAW building regs. You will not get aproval in the first place if its not a sound design.
When you get quotes, ask for references, my builder gave the local MP and all the local schools
When you think you have a builder in mind ask your building inspector if he has seen/approved any of his previous work.
We were very lucky, our builder did all the liason with the BI, to the point where I thought he might be pulling a fast one (because I'd never seen or spoke to him). When I called the BI to check he told me the my builder was trusworth and well known to him, and there was nothing to worry about. He had done all the inspections needed to that point, and my builder would know exactly what he wanted to see and when.
BSR, before you sign anything post more details on here. There are a range of standard contracts produced by the JCT for building. Your project would suit the Minor Works form of Building Contract. Advantage with using an industry standard contract is it is pretty fair and even handed.
http://www.jctcontracts.com/contracts/mw/mw_more.j...
If you email details of the works to me after pricing then I can give you a steer of what might be missing.
http://www.jctcontracts.com/contracts/mw/mw_more.j...
If you email details of the works to me after pricing then I can give you a steer of what might be missing.
You have had a planning application done, what about building regulations?
The better quality theses drawings/design/calcs are should make the builders job not just easier but it means he will not be left to do things his way(cut corners). You also have something to check against.
Asked for a fully itemised quote for the work this should hopefully cut down on claims for extras.
Sit back and look at the design on paper are you 100% happy with it or is there some minor changes you would like to make. If so make them now not once the project has started, changes cost money.
I personally keep an eye on any site where I have done the planning or buildings regulations to make sure what is built is what has been designed, even if I’m getting no extra fee for it.
The better quality theses drawings/design/calcs are should make the builders job not just easier but it means he will not be left to do things his way(cut corners). You also have something to check against.
Asked for a fully itemised quote for the work this should hopefully cut down on claims for extras.
Sit back and look at the design on paper are you 100% happy with it or is there some minor changes you would like to make. If so make them now not once the project has started, changes cost money.
I personally keep an eye on any site where I have done the planning or buildings regulations to make sure what is built is what has been designed, even if I’m getting no extra fee for it.
blindswelledrat said:
shirt said:
are you using an architect? if so use them to plan & supervise with your builder friend as piece of mind.
I was trying to avoid using an architect.I used one for hte planning but I hate him passionately and don't want to throw another penny his way.
i would still recommend the book in my earlier post to get to grips with what is and isnt good method and a fully costed quote.
shirt said:
i know a few architects and was stuggling with how one would escape your ire!
i would still recommend the book in my earlier post to get to grips with what is and isnt good method and a fully costed quote.
Im going to get that book.i would still recommend the book in my earlier post to get to grips with what is and isnt good method and a fully costed quote.
You would be suprised. I am not a difficult person to deal with at all, regardless of how I may come across here.
THe architect I used gave me what I consider to be terrible advice and treated me as though I knew his job and was irritable when I didn't understand stuff.
THe long and short of it was that I have paid him significantly more than £10k to get planning permission for an extension.
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