Guardian Debate about electric cars.
Discussion
The Guardian is having a debate about electric cars next week.
Damian Carrington is asking for questions to the panel...
SENSIBLE questions please, that reflect areasonable debate..
Mine are:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carri...
As the purpose is for reducing CO2 emissions.
1: Where is the extra electricity going to come from to charge these cars?, predominantly overnight.
2: what are the environmental impacts of all that Lithium. ie the mining extraction and processing it, and disposing of it, when the car reaches it's end of life. A nissan Leaf has 4kg of lithium for example.
3: what is the dust to dust CO2 emmissions in the manufacturing , running (ie including if charged by renewable, or non renewanle source) and disposal at the end of the cars life.
4: In light of the above will the UK actuall achieve ANY overall CO2 remission reduction. As I do not see any possibility of enough renewable energy being put in place (technologocal and logistically possible in the time frame) by 2020
5: Would the actual goals be achived by developing existing technologies.
Recent developemenst in diesel, stopstart, etc, give many conventioanl cars BETTER ovberall emssions of more expensive electric cras, without the disposal and environmental issues of the battery technologies above...
6: Will the developement of electric cars, rare earth metals (toxic productions methods as well) and lithium (see above), lead to an environmental disaster for poor countries, and fail to achieve any emission reductions...
Currenly only France with a high proportion of it's electric power provided by nuclear power stations, has a chance of meeting emission targets ((relative to goal and gas - UK's main power source) yet this does not take into account the environmental cost of lithium mining, rare earth mining..
Wind turbines CANNOT provide enough power for this in the timescale.
See - Generation by Fuel Type Graph - for wind
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
Dirty Lithium
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Are they clean relative to other vehicles, if you consider manufacturing and end of life considerations?
Manufacturing process and material of electric cars vs conventional low emmsiosion diesals (ie VW group blue motion technology, as just one manufcaturers example)
Lithium mining and processing is a toxic process.
Also the environmentla cost of mining massively more quantities of Lithium
The econimcic may not stack up, (allready subsidised and expensive electric cars) as the cost of lithium is set to rise with this demand.
'Since a vehicle battery requires 100 times as much lithium carbonate as its laptop equivalent, the green-car revolution could make lithium one of the planet's most strategic commodities,' says Mary Ann Wright of Johnson Controls-Saft, a lithium-ion battery producer.
But there is simply nowhere near enough currently mined to fuel the world's 900 million cars. According to William Tahil, research director with technology consultancy Meridian International Research, 'to make just 60 million plug-in hybrid vehicles a year containing a small lithium-ion battery would require 420,000 tons of lithium carbonate - or six times the current global production annually.
'But in reality, you want a decent-sized battery, so it's more likely
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Not very Green:
"In the parched hills of Chile's northern region the damage caused by lithium mining is immediately clear. As you approach one of the country's largest lithium mines the white landscape gives way to what appears to be an endless ploughed field. Huge mountains of discarded bright white salt rise out of the plain. The cracked brown earth of the site crumbles in your hands. There is no sign of animal life anywhere. The scarce water has all been poisoned by chemicals leaked from the mine.
Huge channels and tracts have been cut into the desert, each running with heavily polluted water. The blue glow of chlorine makes the water look almost magical, but these glistening pools are highly toxic. The chlorine used to water down the potentially carcinogenic lithium and magnesium compounds that are commonly found in the water table around lithium deposits.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Good intentions lead to environmental destruction for no result ?
Damian Carrington is asking for questions to the panel...
SENSIBLE questions please, that reflect areasonable debate..
Mine are:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carri...
As the purpose is for reducing CO2 emissions.
1: Where is the extra electricity going to come from to charge these cars?, predominantly overnight.
2: what are the environmental impacts of all that Lithium. ie the mining extraction and processing it, and disposing of it, when the car reaches it's end of life. A nissan Leaf has 4kg of lithium for example.
3: what is the dust to dust CO2 emmissions in the manufacturing , running (ie including if charged by renewable, or non renewanle source) and disposal at the end of the cars life.
4: In light of the above will the UK actuall achieve ANY overall CO2 remission reduction. As I do not see any possibility of enough renewable energy being put in place (technologocal and logistically possible in the time frame) by 2020
5: Would the actual goals be achived by developing existing technologies.
Recent developemenst in diesel, stopstart, etc, give many conventioanl cars BETTER ovberall emssions of more expensive electric cras, without the disposal and environmental issues of the battery technologies above...
6: Will the developement of electric cars, rare earth metals (toxic productions methods as well) and lithium (see above), lead to an environmental disaster for poor countries, and fail to achieve any emission reductions...
Currenly only France with a high proportion of it's electric power provided by nuclear power stations, has a chance of meeting emission targets ((relative to goal and gas - UK's main power source) yet this does not take into account the environmental cost of lithium mining, rare earth mining..
Wind turbines CANNOT provide enough power for this in the timescale.
See - Generation by Fuel Type Graph - for wind
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
Dirty Lithium
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Are they clean relative to other vehicles, if you consider manufacturing and end of life considerations?
Manufacturing process and material of electric cars vs conventional low emmsiosion diesals (ie VW group blue motion technology, as just one manufcaturers example)
Lithium mining and processing is a toxic process.
Also the environmentla cost of mining massively more quantities of Lithium
The econimcic may not stack up, (allready subsidised and expensive electric cars) as the cost of lithium is set to rise with this demand.
'Since a vehicle battery requires 100 times as much lithium carbonate as its laptop equivalent, the green-car revolution could make lithium one of the planet's most strategic commodities,' says Mary Ann Wright of Johnson Controls-Saft, a lithium-ion battery producer.
But there is simply nowhere near enough currently mined to fuel the world's 900 million cars. According to William Tahil, research director with technology consultancy Meridian International Research, 'to make just 60 million plug-in hybrid vehicles a year containing a small lithium-ion battery would require 420,000 tons of lithium carbonate - or six times the current global production annually.
'But in reality, you want a decent-sized battery, so it's more likely
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Not very Green:
"In the parched hills of Chile's northern region the damage caused by lithium mining is immediately clear. As you approach one of the country's largest lithium mines the white landscape gives way to what appears to be an endless ploughed field. Huge mountains of discarded bright white salt rise out of the plain. The cracked brown earth of the site crumbles in your hands. There is no sign of animal life anywhere. The scarce water has all been poisoned by chemicals leaked from the mine.
Huge channels and tracts have been cut into the desert, each running with heavily polluted water. The blue glow of chlorine makes the water look almost magical, but these glistening pools are highly toxic. The chlorine used to water down the potentially carcinogenic lithium and magnesium compounds that are commonly found in the water table around lithium deposits.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-11...
Good intentions lead to environmental destruction for no result ?
Edited by BJWoods on Friday 18th March 13:46
grumbledoak said:
Baroness Worthington? She of the "blowing up ten percent of people" crap?
Why on Earth would you expect a sensible question to get through?
If you don't try, they can always say no one asked.Why on Earth would you expect a sensible question to get through?
Yes it is that Baronness...
http://www.realclimategate.org/2010/11/climate-con...
On the Anniversary of Climategate a CAGW alarmist has entered the Houses of Parliament…….
……. not by the traditional environmental ‘climate change’ activist method, of climbing onto the roof holding ‘Save the Planet’ banners, but invited in and made a peer by Labour Party leader Ed Milliband
“Bryony Worthington, Sandbag’s founder, has been appointed as a Labour peer in the UK Parliament’s House of Lords, recognising over a decade of work for effective action on climate change.
Ed Milliband, who as Minister of State for the Department of Energy and Climate Change in the previous UK government, was responsible for introducing the 2008 Climate Change Act (80% reductions in CO2 by 2050) has brought Bryony into the House of Lords to help push the Climate Change Act that they both were instrumental in creating.
“First on her agenda will be the energy market reform planned by the coalition government, “unfinished business” from the Climate Change Act which she was instrumental in writing, such as setting stronger carbon caps in the UK, and how to boost investment in green projects.”
There seems to be a huge momentum for electric cars.
I do not personally accept that CO2 is a problem, but for this I will accept that using electric cars is a life style selection, and say I myself would consider one if the price was right, it had a decent range and it did not look like a frog (Nissan!).
So the first question I have is
"Would the use of 1.7 million electric cars of City only driving be enough to meet the 2020 target?"
Their current problem seems to be with batteries of sufficient capacity to provide a sufficient range? Which is where all the problems seem to stem??
So my second question is
"Should we not consider the building of Induction loops into the road surface to increase range and reduce on board battery size requirement for City cars?"
My third question is "1.7 million cars need about 3000 watts each of power for 10 hours to fully charge them" (Worst case I know) "Which is about 5.1 Gigawatt of power added to the National Grid. Can the grid provide that EXTRA demand in mid-winter?"
By the way 17 million cars need 51 Gigawatt, and I know they CAN'T support that!
My fourth and last question
"When the wind stops blowing and my car battery is flat, will there be Legislation to make my boss accept that I can't get to work due to Government diktat"?
I do not personally accept that CO2 is a problem, but for this I will accept that using electric cars is a life style selection, and say I myself would consider one if the price was right, it had a decent range and it did not look like a frog (Nissan!).
So the first question I have is
"Would the use of 1.7 million electric cars of City only driving be enough to meet the 2020 target?"
Their current problem seems to be with batteries of sufficient capacity to provide a sufficient range? Which is where all the problems seem to stem??
So my second question is
"Should we not consider the building of Induction loops into the road surface to increase range and reduce on board battery size requirement for City cars?"
My third question is "1.7 million cars need about 3000 watts each of power for 10 hours to fully charge them" (Worst case I know) "Which is about 5.1 Gigawatt of power added to the National Grid. Can the grid provide that EXTRA demand in mid-winter?"
By the way 17 million cars need 51 Gigawatt, and I know they CAN'T support that!
My fourth and last question
"When the wind stops blowing and my car battery is flat, will there be Legislation to make my boss accept that I can't get to work due to Government diktat"?
snapdragon69 said:
deeen said:
My question would be along the lines of: Why not put the same time, money and effort into hydrogen?
Because there is no energy efficient source of hydrogen.However my long term thinking would be that there is probably enough water in the world to run every car on hydrogen, while there may be not be enough lithium to put lithium batteries in every car.
And in practical terms, you could use a hydrogen car just like a petrol one, i.e. no waiting for hours to recharge batteries.
Edited by deeen on Saturday 19th March 19:38
deeen said:
My understanding is that electrolysis can be up to 70% efficient, but you're right, it's still an extra step in the process. That could be ameliorated by using some of the wasted 30% (heat) elsewhere; also it is possible to produce hydrogen from waste products (urine, landfill gas), although I have no idea about the economic possibilities of this.
However my long term thinking would be that there is probably enough water in the world to run every car on hydrogen, while there may be not be enough lithium to put lithium batteries in every car.
The point is you still need vast amounts of energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen; where is this energy going to come from?However my long term thinking would be that there is probably enough water in the world to run every car on hydrogen, while there may be not be enough lithium to put lithium batteries in every car.
snapdragon69 said:
The government makes a fortune from fuel taxation. If they lost that, how would they make it up? Massive hikes in your electricity bill whether you have an electric car (or any car) or not?
You have GOT to ask this, but possibly phrased to less aggressively! Esp bearing in mind current government financial situation as they can hardly say they don't need the £20+ Billion a year from car taxation...Additionally quoting the mail on a guardian website won't be the most ingratiating post.
And I've just read most of the comments on there - some very very dubious calculations (and I thought my fag packet ones were bad!) punctuated by some very insightful (inciteful?) questions which I suspect will go unanswered as they're not the *right kind* of question.
And I've just read most of the comments on there - some very very dubious calculations (and I thought my fag packet ones were bad!) punctuated by some very insightful (inciteful?) questions which I suspect will go unanswered as they're not the *right kind* of question.
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