Are there any Kayakers or Canoeists in the house?

[Reardy Mister]

Anyone do a bit of paddling who can give me a couple of pearls of wisdom?

Fancying a kayak (to sit on rather than in) for paddling on local rivers and Mudeford Bay. Any good or bad brands or designs, things to watch out for?

I reckon it will be a nice way to spend a some time on a weekend and help stay in shape.

[MrGman]

Kayaking is a great way to spend some time on a sunny day, hoping to get out quite a bit myself this year

I'd recommend a Perception Scooter, if you're after a 'sit on' kayak you won't find anything better IMO, they paddle very well and are very stable at the same time along with having plenty of storage area for grub!!

http://www.perception.co.uk/product/index/products...

[sierrabravo999]

I'm a Kayaker, I assume that you're looking at a 'sit on top' type kayak, rather than the kayak that you wear like a massive shoe? I'd consider trying to find a local club, they'll be on the rivers soon, and will have instructors that will help you get the most from your kayak.

[Reardy Mister]

Yes, I should have clarified, Im after a "sit on top" type.

Was just looking at this one for example:

http://www.canoesandkayaks.co.uk/product/6249/Ocea...

[Antony Moxey]

Just got myself an RTM Ocean Duo a couple of weeks back, which is a two man sit on kayak. Have been out a couple of times along Exeter Canal, which is a good way of getting used to the thing as the water is nice and flat. Hopefully in the summer we'll have a go in the sea at Exmouth.

Have a look at places that run schools as they're replacing equipment all the time - we got our kayak, four bouyancy aids, two paddles plus two roof straps for £385, the kayak alone is near £500 new. Get some back rests too, they make a big difference, and also waterproofs - we got absolutely soaked this afternoon, although that was mainly due to towing a capsized paddler back to the bank and him hanging on the back weighed it down a bit!

Good luck, and enjoy!

[LilPeteMordino]

sierrabravo999 said:

I'm a Kayaker, I assume that you're looking at a 'sit on top' type kayak, rather than the kayak that you wear like a massive shoe? I'd consider trying to find a local club, they'll be on the rivers soon, and will have instructors that will help you get the most from your kayak.

I'd be coming off the rivers in the next few weeks personally! Though this season has been a no go for me.

Not sure on any sit on top advice, But if you ever want to move into the sit in ones...

[Petrolhead_Rich]

Reardy Mister said:

Anyone do a bit of paddling who can give me a couple of pearls of wisdom?

Fancying a kayak (to sit on rather than in) for paddling on local rivers and Mudeford Bay. Any good or bad brands or designs, things to watch out for?

I reckon it will be a nice way to spend a some time on a weekend and help stay in shape.

http://www.pyranha.com/

Always paddled about in Pyranha's myself, seem good enough!

ETA- I prefer the type you get into rather than sit ontop of, you keep much drier and can really throw them around and control them with your body

[Bill]

Reardy Mister said:

Fancying a kayak (to sit on rather than in)

Just out of curiosity why a sit on? (I only ask because I'm thinking of getting one too.)

[UVB]

Gumotex do some nice inflatable ones if access is an issue (or space in/on your vehicle in question).

[itsnotarace]

Bill said:

Reardy Mister said:

Fancying a kayak (to sit on rather than in)

Just out of curiosity why a sit on? (I only ask because I'm thinking of getting one too.)

Would second this question? Closed cockpit kayaks are more stable in the water as you brace your knees up inside the boat.

If it's capsizing you are worried about, you remove yourself from the boat just like you would take off a pair of trousers...it really is very easy. A couple of practice capsizes in a swimming pool and you will see there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

[dudleybloke]

i'm not keen on the sit on ones.
as mentioned above an enclosed kayak is more stable and you should be able to pick one up fairly cheaply.

[mcdjl]

LilPeteMordino said:

sierrabravo999 said:

I'm a Kayaker, I assume that you're looking at a 'sit on top' type kayak, rather than the kayak that you wear like a massive shoe? I'd consider trying to find a local club, they'll be on the rivers soon, and will have instructors that will help you get the most from your kayak.

I'd be coming off the rivers in the next few weeks personally! Though this season has been a no go for me.

Not sure on any sit on top advice, But if you ever want to move into the sit in ones...

I don't seem to have run any rivers this winter Alps in the summer though
As for paddling the exter canal in a sit on top the darts just up the road from you and its a lovely little river (i almost drove 200 miles each way in a day to paddle it)

[Reardy Mister]

itsnotarace said:

Bill said:

Reardy Mister said:

Fancying a kayak (to sit on rather than in)

Just out of curiosity why a sit on? (I only ask because I'm thinking of getting one too.)

Would second this question? Closed cockpit kayaks are more stable in the water as you brace your knees up inside the boat.

If it's capsizing you are worried about, you remove yourself from the boat just like you would take off a pair of trousers...it really is very easy. A couple of practice capsizes in a swimming pool and you will see there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Ummm...not sure really. I just prefer the idea of being on it rather than in it. It seems like its more versatile if you want to carry things. In a way, it seems like a more modern and accessible variation of the sport I suppose. I can do an eskimo roll so no troubles there. Plus if I want to be in the outdoors, I want to be in the outdoors. Not outdoors from the waist up.

I may change my mind after a season or two I suppose.

[Bill]

Reardy Mister said:

Ummm...not sure really. I just prefer the idea of being on it rather than in it. It seems like its more versatile if you want to carry things. In a way, it seems like a more modern and accessible variation of the sport I suppose. I can do an eskimo roll so no troubles there. Plus if I want to be in the outdoors, I want to be in the outdoors. Not outdoors from the waist up.

I may change my mind after a season or two I suppose.

Neoprene wetsuit vs neoprene deck... Much of a muchness IMO. I guess if you are alone and are offshore/somewhere with cliffs then an open boat gives more opportunity for self-rescue if you do end up bailing out.

The open boats are a bit "Noddy" though. Apart from surf-skis

[RobM77]

I've done sit-on-top kayaking for a few years now and here are the things to look for when buying one:

Stability vs manouverability and speed. Fat kayaks are extremely stable but not very manouverable. Sadly, these are the majority of sit on tops these days.. Techniques like 'edging' that you may wish to use don't really work, and they can be very slow in a straight line too. Bear in mind that many sit-on-tops are intended for fishing or diving rather than pure paddling, where the user wants a numpty ride, and sure enough, they paddle like a good reliable van drives compared with a normal car (I'll reserve the sports car analogy for a sit-in....). Early sit-ons like the Scupper Pro were designed around sit-in sea kayaks and as such were really narrow and long and paddle beautifully (although being long they don't turn too well in the waves etc), but the market switched away from people like us who want to kayak like you would in a sit-in, thus the number of short fat ones around. The other curious thing that's happened in the market is the promotion of a "dry ride", which sits the occupant quite high. I think this idea comes from warmer climates where you dress to fall in as you would to go to the beach anyway (t shirt and shorts); this doesn't apply in the UK (you'll wear a wetsuit all year round if you've got any sense!), so personally I'd rather have the seat as low as possible for greater control and stability (i.e. stability without having to buy a sluggish wide kayak). So look at width, length and seat height for how the thing paddles.

Weight. If you're lifting it onto the car, think about the weight. Some of the nicer sit-on-tops are extremely heavy! Length may be a concern too for ease of transport, depending on what car you have.

Hand stretch and width: Some of the wider stable kayaks are a pain to paddle because of their width. I've got quite short arms, and keep banging my hands on the edge of many cheap hire sit-on tops.

Stowage: Do you want storage in the kayak? If so, you'll need a bow hatch and probably a waterproof bag. The hatch is an optional extra, and the UK importer for Ocean kayaks for example just import a range of kayaks with different specs every so often, so you can't spec a new one and have it delivered in your colour and spec, you have to ring round to see what's on the shelf.

I'd recommend hiring a few sit-on-top kayaks or going on a course or two to learn about them before buying. That's what I did and I'm glad I did. Other people on the course may come along with a range of boats, and you can take a closer look, which will help you decide.

As for accessories:

Paddle: Spending £100 makes a massive difference compared with £30.
Gloves: I've recommend kayaking gloves rather than basic wetsuit gloves.
Trolley: You may need one for a heavier kayak if you've got a distance between the car and the water
Seat: Sit on tops need a seat, otherwise you'll get back pain. Pick one that's right for you - there are many designs, and spend time adjusting it to suit you.
Paddle Leash: If you fall out in a current and lose your paddle you'll be stuck up the creek without a paddle The leash will tie the paddle to the boat.
A tides app. If you paddle on the sea, get wise to the tides, both for ease of launching and currents. Most tidal currents in UK estuaries and the like go faster than you can paddle... If you've got an iPhone I'd recommend Tucabo Tides Planner. If not, just a good old tides booklet from a Chandler.

Good resources are as follows:

www.jurassic-kayaking.com
Jurassic Kayak Tours do trips on the South Coast and it's a good way to get into it. My first paddle was with them from Lulworth Cove round to Durdle Dor, and I bought a kayak after then.

www.jerseykayakadventures.co.uk/
This is run by a chap called Derek Hairon, who whilst being rather eccentric (!) is extremely enthusiastic and probably the UK expert on sit-on-top kayaking. He offers trips and courses, and they're all superb.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sit-top-Kayak-Beginners-Ma...
A great book, written by Derek, as mentioned above.

After trying a range of kayaks, I ended up getting a ladies one Most of the men's ones were either bathtubs and rubbish to paddle, or huge long ones intended for fishing that were cumbersome and heavy. The ladies one suits my low weight and proportions (long legs and short arms, and most of my weight's low down), and it's light enough to lift off the car, to the water and launch without a trolley. It's the Elise of the sit on top world, rather than the Mondeo The other type of kayak is a surf ski - they're narrow and sporty whilst being a sit-on-top. I've never tried one, but they look great, if a little single minded in their design and use.

Finally, do consider sit-in. They're faster, more stable and more manouverable and most people prefer them, but of course you've got the whole capsize routine, which of course is very different to training when you get taken by surprise in real life. It's all about confidence really and enjoying yourself. Oh, and despite what they tell you in training about paddling with other people to help each other out, when you paddle with a partner at sea, if there's much more than a force 3 wind you can't hear each other at all if in trouble, and it's tricky to stay exactly alongside, so most people tend to paddle inline, where the person in front can't see the one behind because you can't turn round easily in/on a kayak. It's a toss up really - a sit-in gives better performance in the rough stuff, but gives many people worries about capsizing, whereas a sit-on isn't as good in rougher waters, but doesn't present any worries at all about capsizing, and is easier to get back onto (harder than a surf board, but easier than a sit-in). Personally, I'd book onto two courses - a sit-on one and a sit-in and see which you can see yourself preferring when competent and experienced.

HTH

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 22 March 13:43

[Reardy Mister]

Good stuff. Thanks Rob.

The course could be a good shout. Dismayed to learn I'll be needing a wetty all year round though!

[RobM77]

Reardy Mister said:

Good stuff. Thanks Rob.

The course could be a good shout. Dismayed to learn I'll be needing a wetty all year round though!

Sorry, I was trying to keep that post as brief as possible. You don't have to wear a wetsuit, no, and I know SOTers that don't, although most wear at least a shortie (with a spray top over the top). I've only fallen in twice in two or three years of kayaking (admittedly in waves), although your feet, legs and bum do get wet paddling one, even on fairly calm water, and if you're messing about in the waves you'll get very wet indeed even if you don't fall in, as they tend to break over the front of the boat. It depends on your sense of balance - I usually paddle with my ex and she's fallen in a lot more than me. The reason I wear a wetsuit is that the sea in this country is absolutely freezing for most of the year. It's currently 9 degrees and it barely gets about 15 or 16, even in Aug/Sep. I've hardly got any fat on me and I'm extremely sensitive to the cold - everyone's different. For example, there's no way I would swim in this country in just my swimming shorts, even in mid summer.

So I guess it depends on how much you feel the cold, and how much of an event you want falling in to be. Think of it this way, I dress exactly as I do for dinghy sailing (wetsuit March/April to December and drysuit Jan to March). If you're the type that would sail in shorts and t-shirt, then I'd wear that for SOT kayaking too.

The bottom line is if you're going on a three hour trip up and down the coast and you capsize an hour from the launch site, how do you fancy paddling back to the beach/car in clothes soaked in 10-15 degree water? I know I would find the falling in extremely unpleasant, and would probably be taking quite a risk with my health in spending an hour and a half in cold wet clothes paddling back to the car (not to mention ruining my paddling partner's day out if I had to turn back!). As it is, with a wetsuit, if I fell in after an hour I'd just climb back on and continue as if nothing had happened.

[10 Pence Short]

A wetsuit may be fine if you're planning on spending time immersed in the water (as in on purpose). If you're planning on staying atop your sit on top or in your kayak, on the sea, you want a dry suit or two piece clothing to that effect. This will give you good exposure time in the water, and keep you warm once you're back out of it. A wetsuit not so much.

Keeping dry is the key to keeping warm.

Whilst a sit on top might be a nice recreational item, it's not really going to allow anyone to use the sea in a serious way due to the limitations of the thing. If you want to develop as a paddler and be able to experience a wider range of conditions and trips, you need to consider a sea kayak. If you're not that committed to the idea of being a paddler, or want to use a SoT as a platform for other things, such as fishing and the like, fair enough.

[10 Pence Short]

RobM77 said:

The bottom line is if you're going on a three hour trip up and down the coast and you capsize an hour from the launch site, how do you fancy paddling back to the beach/car in clothes soaked in 10-15 degree water?

The bottom line is that if you expect to spend an hour in the sea without decent protection, especially outside of the high summer months, you are very unlikely to last the hour it might take to get back to shore.

And with tides, tidal races and winds, that hour getting back to shore could be an ironically small distance as the crow flies.

[RobM77]

10 Pence Short said:

A wetsuit may be fine if you're planning on spending time immersed in the water (as in on purpose). If you're planning on staying atop your sit on top or in your kayak, on the sea, you want a dry suit or two piece clothing to that effect. This will give you good exposure time in the water, and keep you warm once you're back out of it. A wetsuit not so much.

Keeping dry is the key to keeping warm.

Whilst a sit on top might be a nice recreational item, it's not really going to allow anyone to use the sea in a serious way due to the limitations of the thing. If you want to develop as a paddler and be able to experience a wider range of conditions and trips, you need to consider a sea kayak. If you're not that committed to the idea of being a paddler, or want to use a SoT as a platform for other things, such as fishing and the like, fair enough.

I'd like to comment on that:

Firstly, drysuits. I've got a dry suit that I use for sailing and kayaking, and in much above about 12 degrees C air temperature you would absolutely cook in it, even if you just wore boxer shorts underneath (and it's quite a lightweight one intended for sailing). Dry suits are really for winter use only if you partake in an active sport like SOT kayaking. Also, clambering back onto a sit on top in a dry suit is quite awkward, and it's much easier in a wetsuit. Wetsuits are not just for immersion use - they're standard kit for almost all dinghy sailers and windsurfers, most of whom don't go in the water everyday. Nowadays wetsuits are stretchy, lightweight and comfortable to wear on a dinghy or kayak, provide warmth through the use of special linings (notably "titanium" from circa 2001 onwards and latterly furry linings like my Rip Curl's got) and they work immediately when you fall in without any of this "layer of water" business that used to be the case in the 60s, 70s and most of the 80s. I use my dry suit in winter, but last weekend switched straight to the wetsuit because it's less claustrophobic, my skin can breath more and it feels a lot more natural to wear. Everyone has different preferences, but I'd hesitate to recommend a drysuit to a SOT paddler for all year round use.

Secondly, what you say about sit-in sea kayaks being more versatile and suitable for a range of conditions is true. You mention the term "serious paddler", but it doesn't seem like the OP is (neither am I). I've been SOT kayaking for three years now, purely for the sake of paddling (fun, not "serious"), and with no aspirations for fishing, platform for diving etc. I've been on lots of trips in the open sea with people who've been happily SOT kayaking for years as well, a couple of courses to learn techniques and it is very much a sport in its own right. Sure, SOTs are not as versatile or as fast as a sea kayak, but to me it sounds like the OP wants a similar use to me - trips of a maximum or two to three hours to explore waterways with either flat water or mild chop, and a SOT is absolutely fine for that purpose. The truth is that not everyone wants to take kayaking particularly seriously.

I'm a keen cyclist, so to use that analogy, if someone said they wanted a bike for general use on shorter trips and touring on holiday, I wouldn't reccomend a road bike with clipped pedals. A hybrid with open pedals is best suited for the job. Similarly, learning eskimo rolls and how to avoid drowning if you capsize is fair enough for the serious paddler who wants a performance sit-in, but for someone like me who wants to explore estuaries and calm seas looking at birds and scenery and getting some fresh air, a decent SOT is perfect. Sure, you can learn wet exits and eskimo rolls so that they don't present any worries, just as I've learn to instinctively catch slides in my single seater racing car or unclip my pedals quickly on my road racing bike; but for the average guy for general calm water touring use, I would support a SOT as a very viable option.

Having said that, I would recommend that the OP looks at the "performance" end of the SOT market. Something slab sided that's meant for fishermen or kids is going to get very tiresome very quickly - before I bought my own SOT kayak I hired such things from various places on the South coast and the Scupper Pro I've used on the courses in Jersey (link earlier) are in a completely different league. The guy that runs the courses is also a sit-in sea kayaker and he said they weren't hugely different. It's the width you need to look at.